Originally Posted by DarkMaster
How did my response seem arrogant and dismissive? Heck, if you open your eyes and read
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best soloer that also melts face at end game
Just go Fire/anything. Really, that's all you need.
I teach writing, and one of the biggest things I have to show my students is to think about what their words are saying. That statement is up there with saying "No offense, but..." when you're trying to mend fences. That statement almost always presages an offensive passage.
Anyway, the earlier passage has been clarified, and let's move on to Blaster combos that "melts face at end game," as that's much more fun.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
hey guys thanks for the input but I rolled a Corr instead after reading this thread http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=238663
from there it seems to me blasters play 2nd fiddle to scraps, doms, brutes etc. and as a corr at least I get some support powers to mess around with when my dps gets overshadowed.
hey guys thanks for the input but I rolled a Corr instead after reading this thread http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showthread.php?t=238663
from there it seems to me blasters play 2nd fiddle to scraps, doms, brutes etc. and as a corr at least I get some support powers to mess around with when my dps gets overshadowed. |
Don't want my word for it? Arcanaville, the resident poster and mathematical analyst extroadinaire here on the forums stated that she didn't even see a reason to post in that thread you cited (ie, it wasn't worth noting). And here's a quote from BillZ on AT disparity in CoX. "In the end, all of these statements are completely useless beyond showing that no AT is obsolete as long as people continue playing them. Including stalkers."
Both are taken from a thread in the AT discussion section of the forums.
There are certainly powersets that need tweaking in CoX, but the ATs are all in pretty healthy relation to how effective they are. Play the AT you want.
If you want a decent support toon that can do damage, roll a Corruptor. If you just want to revel in blowing stuff up while being on the screaming edge, be a Blaster. That's all there is to it: don't let anyone else try to sully your fun by convincing you that the ATs aren't on a pretty even keel.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
Seriously? Okay, for that, if nothing else, that thread needs to be scorched from the face of this earth. If you want to play a Corruptor because you find it fun, that's fine, but don't do it because of some hogwash about some AT outplaying another. The closest thing CoX has to an AT falling behind the others in competition are Stalkers, and they're still pretty borderline in that regard.
Don't want my word for it? Arcanaville, the resident poster and mathematical analyst extroadinaire here on the forums stated that she didn't even see a reason to post in that thread you cited (ie, it wasn't worth noting). And here's a quote from BillZ on AT disparity in CoX. "In the end, all of these statements are completely useless beyond showing that no AT is obsolete as long as people continue playing them. Including stalkers." Both are taken from a thread in the AT discussion section of the forums. There are certainly powersets that need tweaking in CoX, but the ATs are all in pretty healthy relation to how effective they are. Play the AT you want. If you want a decent support toon that can do damage, roll a Corruptor. If you just want to revel in blowing stuff up while being on the screaming edge, be a Blaster. That's all there is to it: don't let anyone else try to sully your fun by convincing you that the ATs aren't on a pretty even keel. |
And really "blowing stuff up while being on the screaming edge", you get that with other ATs, just at higher difficulty settings.
No, that really is the problem. Blasters are not numerically so on the edge as Stalkers are, and it's ridiculous that anyone would say Stalkers aren't worth it anyway.
At best, all you have pointed out in that other thread is that a few powerset combinations can do a lot of damage too, like that somehow obviates the entire Blaster AT or makes them worthless. When plenty of people still like playing them, still do play them, and are hardly having issues in playing the game well.
Basically, you have set up a situation where you are artificially creating a large performance bias between ATs, when the only bias should be what a player has fun with (and that is what CoX has). Way to try and ruin one of the best aspects of City of Heroes. Seriously, it's disgusting.
Sorry for being annoyed, but... I have argued for balance many times when it is needed, even when I don't play an AT or powerset. I was all for the Blaster changes many issues back, as the AT really did need it then.
Any suggestion that Blasters are way out of whack now or that another AT fits the bill much better (when the only real requirement is what you like to play for) is a bad thing.
As for this statement " It sounds like he got steered to something much better for a new player." That's hogwash, and you should know it. The only best thing for any player, new or old, is to play something they like. Some people enjoy playing support, some don't. And really, most of the support classes take awhile to mature and work well. You can do what a Blaster does from 1-50, easily.
I have an Ice/Storm Corruptor that I quite like, but he's still rather slow and not all that powerful in the 20s. I know how that's going to open up and be great, looking at the final build I have for him in mid's (and knowing how Storm works at higher levels from my Earth/Storm Controller), but he's not there yet.
The more straight up ATs are a bit easier for getting used to City of Heroes. Really, Blasters, Brutes, and Scrappers are probably the best there. I'd still steer people into support ATs if that's the concept they like best for their character, though.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
As a player who started with a Blaster on day 1 and levelled it to 50 as my main
toon, the sheer amount of pure "wrong" in that referenced thread is laughable.
I also have a few L50 Stalkers, and quite honestly, Blasters and Stalkers
are even better these days than they were in their inception.
Solo.
I agree with Pilgrim that OP should play whatever interests them - it's a game.
Fun, amusement and leisure entertainment are The Point.
As for the rest - personal play eclipses anecdotal opinion - triple that when
certain posters start chipping in with their so-called "wisdom"
In any case, enjoy your Corruptor and if you ever want to know how a Blaster
plays ... roll one and find out.
Regards,
4
I've been rich, and I've been poor. Rich is definitely better.
Light is faster than sound - that's why some people look smart until they speak.
For every seller who leaves the market dirty stinkin' rich,
there's a buyer who leaves the market dirty stinkin' IOed. - Obitus.
No, that really is the problem. Blasters are not numerically so on the edge as Stalkers are, and it's ridiculous that anyone would say Stalkers aren't worth it anyway.
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At best, all you have pointed out in that other thread is that a few powerset combinations can do a lot of damage too, like that somehow obviates the entire Blaster AT or makes them worthless. When plenty of people still like playing them, still do play them, and are hardly having issues in playing the game well. |
Basically, you have set up a situation where you are artificially creating a large performance bias between ATs, when the only bias should be what a player has fun with (and that is what CoX has). Way to try and ruin one of the best aspects of City of Heroes. Seriously, it's disgusting. |
Sorry for being annoyed, but... I have argued for balance many times when it is needed, even when I don't play an AT or powerset. I was all for the Blaster changes many issues back, as the AT really did need it then. |
Any suggestion that Blasters are way out of whack now or that another AT fits the bill much better (when the only real requirement is what you like to play for) is a bad thing. |
As for this statement " It sounds like he got steered to something much better for a new player." That's hogwash, and you should know it. The only best thing for any player, new or old, is to play something they like. Some people enjoy playing support, some don't. And really, most of the support classes take awhile to mature and work well. You can do what a Blaster does from 1-50, easily. |
The more straight up ATs are a bit easier for getting used to City of Heroes. Really, Blasters, Brutes, and Scrappers are probably the best there. I'd still steer people into support ATs if that's the concept they like best for their character, though. |
Eh, less grumpy on a Friday night than I was on a Friday morning with a day of grading and not enough sleep before me.
Anyway, the major stick in my craw right now is one of misconception: that misconception being that "X archetype is better than any other archetype in CoX." I hate this misconception, as all of the ATs are on a reasonably even keel (I mentioned Stalkers, as that seems to be the one universal AT that many agree could use some tweaks to keep it in par with the other melee ATs: Castle also indicated he wanted to adjust them but didn't have time to do so before GR).
So, really, the only thing people should think about is the style in which they want to get things done in. All of the ATs offer different approaches to getting the job done. There are different flavors of support, damage, and aggro management between several ATs, too, which is even better.
The debates we saw for months before GR about how "X AT will replace Y AT," and in any continued debates (like in that linked thread that I hate and Another Fan likes) arise from other difficulties. People have a tendency to forget that the basic difficulty setting of the game is x0/+0, and that you can advance plenty well doing missions at that setting. And all ATs can handle that.
And really, most ATs can surpass that on SOs. When you throw in IOs, things get more complicated, of course, but luckily, the devs didn't choose to make the game more difficult because of IOs. Though they can't ignore what kind of changes they cause, either. It doesn't change any AT being able to ratchet up the difficulty level and do more on their own (and on a team) depending on their build and skill level.
Anyway, I'm getting carried away. All those debates about one AT superseding another are pretty much null and void. The ATs aren't so far apart that there are real, substantial disparities, even with one that is more universally agreed upon like Stalkers (and there are plenty like me that still like them and think they add something to a team). People should play what they want to play, and CoX is one of those few MMOs out there that allows you to do so.
That's what set me off earlier, as that other thread and some posts continue to suggest to new players that they should choose an AT because of some real performance difference, when there isn't a huge one. Again, people should play what they want, and CoX allows them that opportunity: no one should ruin that.
Sure, some powerset combos and builds can make for some crazy DPS or take on multiple AVs, but that's hardly close to baseline performance, or what most people need to do to play the game and have fun. There's plenty of room for min/maxxers and casual players in CoX... which is again, people playing what they want. You go for the style of play you prefer.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
...That's what set me off earlier, as that other thread and some posts continue to suggest to new players that they should choose an AT because of some real performance difference, when there isn't a huge one. Again, people should play what they want, and CoX allows them that opportunity: no one should ruin that.
Sure, some powerset combos and builds can make for some crazy DPS or take on multiple AVs, but that's hardly close to baseline performance, or what most people need to do to play the game and have fun. There's plenty of room for min/maxxers and casual players in CoX... which is again, people playing what they want. You go for the style of play you prefer. |
I totally agree with you on this thread and THAT OTHER THREAD.
Here is one thing that I have meant to say to those folks trying to prove that Scrappers infringe too much on Blaster territory. For "certain" combinations, this may be true and all the efforts through numbers and calculations (if presented correctly) could very well pursuade the dev crew of just such a case(s). BUT...
If they think that will somehow translate into an improvement for Blasters in a general sense, they will be sadly disappointed when all that happens is that the "offending" scrapper combinations get "normalized" to the general scrapper performance levels.
Personally, I do not want to spearhead changes which will cause a particular AT or powerset to be nerfed. If I wish to crusade for anything in this game it will be to bring the "under-performing SETS/ATs up to speed with the rest. Much more satisfactory for the players as a whole I believe.
Perhaps though, there are players that don't think there is a problem calling for nerfs.
Who knows
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
My ideal fix would be to adjust the earnings rates of the various ATs or at least by at and powerset combination, the problems I see with that is one there is not enough mathematical acumen on the part of the devs to properly model the system to do this correctly. This is demonstrated by the attitude they have of see how people do with things and adjust. Blasters being a very good example of this. Their tendency to use use sledgehammers when tweezers are the correct tools is further evidence. Did every defender combination need a 30% damage boost ? Did every tank combination need the extra -resist ? Does anyone really think a super strength or a stone melee tank can't solo ?
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Variable XP earning would only work in a solo-focused sense, and I personally solo because of working odd hours or simply because I feel like it at the time. There is no reason (no good reason) for the devs to consider basing XPs in this manner. But that is a personal opinion.
You then go on to, basically, insult the dev team. Perhaps when we look back in time to ED and GDN, your "sledge-hammer" analogy is more accurate, but the most recent "changes" to the game are most definitely "tweaks". Could these changes have been more targeted towards "under-performers" ? Yeah, certainly. But they accomplish alot more of a subtle adjustment to the AT than you are perhaps giving them credit, AND (this is a big thing), these changes managed to piss off very few players (if any).
Try putting yourself in their shoes when you consider how changes will not only effect actual performance, but "perceived" performance. It doesn't take much to turn players against you, but a nerf is a sure way to start down that road.
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Oh, the "Blasters are underpowered" argument got ported over to THIS thread now?
Seriously, leave it alone already. Blasters are fine at what they are meant to do, which is deal damage. You can't crank up their damage any more, or add survivability without breaking the balance point of them.
No, I'm serious. There are blaster builds that 2 shot entire spawns. If that were to be improved you would have builds 1 shotting entire spawns, essentially making it so Fireball and Blaze are the ONLY powers you need to solo the entire game.
If you have an issue with your blaster either A) dying too often, or B) not dealing enough damage, the issue is with YOU, not the AT.
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
If they think that will somehow translate into an improvement for Blasters in a general sense, they will be sadly disappointed when all that happens is that the "offending" scrapper combinations get "normalized" to the general scrapper performance levels.
Personally, I do not want to spearhead changes which will cause a particular AT or powerset to be nerfed. If I wish to crusade for anything in this game it will be to bring the "under-performing SETS/ATs up to speed with the rest. Much more satisfactory for the players as a whole I believe. |
Other than Devices, I'm trying to think if there are any other Blaster sets that really need tweaking. I think it still does, but the rest do what they're supposed to do pretty well, as far as I know. I haven't played all of them, and have to go off of what people say (and the numbers) for other sets.
But yes, improving Blasters as a whole would be... making the game REALLY easy. And we're already kind of in that territory (I'm hoping the new endgame stuff is challenging but not too difficult, though).
Another_Fan, You really should review this paragraph more thoroughly and determine if it is fair (to the devs) or accurate even. .
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That behavior is a far cry from ED (though arguably the game needed it), or even the nerfs to Burn way back when (it needed a reduction, but not to the point where it had limited usefulness). I'm not sure why Bruising for Tanks was brought up, as that adjustment was to help an AT as a whole. Super Strength and Stone are good sets for damage, sure, but there's nothing so strong about them to warrant them not getting the power (and it's not like those sets wouldn't do more damage for Brutes or Scrappers, either, and Bruising is meant to make Tankers a more viable AT to choose among the melee classes).
Helping all Defenders solo better was hardly questionable, either.
Oh, the "Blasters are underpowered" argument got ported over to THIS thread now?
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The main issue here was when someone honestly thinking about Blasters was led astray by incorrect information. Covered that well enough up above.
Guide: Tanking, Wall of Fire Style (Updated for I19!), and the Four Rules of Tanking
Story Arc: Belated Justice, #88003
Synopsis: Explore the fine line between justice and vengeance as you help a hero of Talos Island bring his friend's murderer to justice.
Grey Pilgrim: Fire/Fire Tanker (50), Victory
No, I'm serious. There are blaster builds that 2 shot entire spawns. If that were to be improved you would have builds 1 shotting entire spawns, essentially making it so Fireball and Blaze are the ONLY powers you need to solo the entire game.
If you have an issue with your blaster either A) dying too often, or B) not dealing enough damage, the issue is with YOU, not the AT. |
When you say entire spawns did you mean particular very easy spawns on certain very easy difficulty settings and just forget to mention those parts ?
You then go on to, basically, insult the dev team. Perhaps when we look back in time to ED and GDN, your "sledge-hammer" analogy is more accurate, but the most recent "changes" to the game are most definitely "tweaks". Could these changes have been more targeted towards "under-performers" ? Yeah, certainly. But they accomplish alot more of a subtle adjustment to the AT than you are perhaps giving them credit, AND (this is a big thing), these changes managed to piss off very few players (if any).
Try putting yourself in their shoes when you consider how changes will not only effect actual performance, but "perceived" performance. It doesn't take much to turn players against you, but a nerf is a sure way to start down that road. |
There are a fair number of brute players that are upset about their nerf, or were you expecting people to get upset over getting a buff ?
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And for that I applaud them.
As far as your example of Brutes, you picked a perfect example for my point. There are certainly Brutes that are very unhappy with the change, despite the fact that it came hand-in-hand with an improvement in "fury decay rate". From the threads that I have read on the subject the response was mixed. Some folks are very unhappy, others mildy unimpressed, and others who felt that it was a well-conceived change. THIS is what you want the devs to do IMHO. Fix things that need to be fixed, but in a way that is equitable or at least only Mildly "distastefull" to the community as a whole. Shield Charge and the BoTZ adjustment are two other recent "Nerfs" which received "mixed" responses. But I didn't see players quiting the the game in "droves" like they did after ED, GDN, changes to Burn, changes to Smoke grenade etc...
I am going to end my participation in the discussion regarding the Blaster/Scrapper parity, because it is really outside of the OP's desired discussion and others have complained about this debate continuing. Mainly, I feel you should have caution regarding your crusade about AT parity with Scrappers, because I don't think it will end the way you desire. But I have been wrong before.
Good hunting
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF