Anything would be better then what they have now.
I always said change Group Fly to Grant Flight. Basically you buff a player to allow him to fly. The player pays for his own endurance cost and Pets pay for their own endurance cost. Similar to how Speed Boost works in concept.
But without a doubt your idea seems much easier then reworking a power.
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The problem with a Grant Flight power is that it doesn't provide the target with the means to turn off their own flight.
Unless you make the flight granted incompatible with Sprints.
Come to think of it, that might be better than the current aura implementation, although with a target-controlled off switch, the aura could also be made larger.
Yeah, my ideal implementation would be a single target Grant Flight - lasts 4 minutes and can be deactivated by the user via Sprint. Good thinking, plain guy 
I can see how this could easily be done. All forms of Flight, sans Group Flight and Group Energy Flight, can grant a Flight magnitude of 2.2 or higher. Group Flights only grant mag 1 flight. Sprint and its prestige variants grant magnitude 1.1 flight protection. This way, you can shut off Group Flying by sprinting but you won't cancel your own flight powers if you toggle Sprint by accident.
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My big issues with Group Fly are:|
Originally Posted by DrMike2000
The problem with a Grant Flight power is that it doesn't provide the target with the means to turn off their own flight.
Unless you make the flight granted incompatible with Sprints. Come to think of it, that might be better than the current aura implementation, although with a target-controlled off switch, the aura could also be made larger. Yeah, my ideal implementation would be a single target Grant Flight - lasts 4 minutes and can be deactivated by the user via Sprint. Good thinking, plain guy |
A) Its slower than regular fly : no team of reasonable level would ever need this as a means to travel
B) The ACC penalty seems to be there only to guarantee that you dont use it during combat. But how much real benefit would a whole team get from flying, especially team-members that don't really want the buff.
C) You have to stay near the user or risk losing flight status, which seems to be the core reason for the reduced speed. Allowing everyone to stick together.
*** In my thread on Power Pool revamps, I chose a 4min single target buff as the way to fix this power. Other ways to further improve the power would be giving an accept/decline option on casting so a player could choose not to accept the buff, and/or make the power function like a temporary power, so when you recieve the buff, you can toggle the power on and off for the duration of the buff.
And actually, for something as mundane as travel, the buff should probably last much longer than 4 minutes. Let's say 10-15min. Whatever time it would normally take to travel from one mission door to the next, then pad a few more minutes for lag, trips to the store, little Hero's room, etc... etc...
BIOSPARK :: DARKTHORN :: SKYGUARD :: WILDMAGE
HEATSINK :: FASTHAND :: POWERCELL :: RUNESTAFF
Just give us the option to refuse it just like teleportation that is unwanted.
I have yet to see a useful activation of this power on a team, but maybe I will witness it someday.
Ideally, the tank will die precisely as everyone else starts fighting, allowing aggro to be spread evenly among the blaster. -seebs, "How to Suck at CoH/CoV" Guide
I've had one use for it: masterminds. As I can control where they go and when, it's nice to give them a more reliable way to deal with multiple-level areas (negating their stupid 'jump about pathfinding') and restraining them from creating an 'aggro trail.' Plus flying pets, especially robots, are cool.
Sadly, as mastermind minions often spawn with a level penalty, the -tohit butchers their effectiveness even with tactics running.
A declinable 'grant flight' click would be awesome. Oh, and have max-flight built in. Otherwise the raptor packs are far better.
*edit*
That brings up another idea: what if the power granted an incredibly high flight mag and high resistance to -fly effects? As such the highest tier flight power would ensure those effected could resist grounding powers almost completely, where normal flight and raptor packs would be normally invalidated.
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This is a problem for many people with Speed Boost, too. I really doubt the Speed Boost "solution" would work here. |
Originally Posted by DrMike2000
The problem with a Grant Flight power is that it doesn't provide the target with the means to turn off their own flight.
Unless you make the flight granted incompatible with Sprints. |
(BTW, originally Telekinesis in Mind Control was just that. You targetted an ally, turned on a toggle, and he could fly. Until he got out of range of you, at which time he dropped like a stone. Yeah, stupid power, quickly changed to the current version)
Anyway, my thought has always been to have a "bubble" around the caster of the Group Fly effect. Anyone who gets outside of the "bubble" immediately is pulled (via Knockback or Repel) back into it. To prevent griefing, you are asked to confirm that you want the effect, as with teleport. A player might be able to trick you into accepting a Group Fly, flying high into the air, and switching to Hover/Fly, but the same thing can be done with Teleport.
I can see being able to turn it off or "block" it by turning on any travel power, though, including Sprint. I'm not sure there's a viable implementation for either that or my idea above, though. The -Fly magnitude on Sprint would have to include a corresponding increase in -Fly in every -Fly power in the game, including those on Critters, to counter the increase in magnitude of the "normal" Fly powers. Plus, Kheldian Nova form is not supposed to be knocked out of Fly by -Fly powers, so it may have to be raised as well.
Plus, there's the fact that you've got to make players aware that turning ON Sprint will make them NOT fly. That seems counter intuitive. It seems to me a simpler, and easier to implement solution would be to have Group Fly supply 0.9 magnitude Fly, and give Sprint a 0.1 magnitude Fly. Now you have to turn Sprint ON to accept the Group Fly effect. If I understand the system, 0.1 or 0.9 Fly should not be enough to make you fly, but stacked together they would. The problem is making players understand that they should turn on Sprint to be able to accept Group Fly. It's not intuitive.
That does suggest a minor fix to the -Fly solution, though. Instead of raising all powers to 2.2 and giving Sprint a -Fly of 1.0, give it a -Fly of 0.1. Then raise the "normal" Fly powers to 1.1. Either that or just make Sprint toggle Fly off and vice versa, after all, Sprint is totally useless while Fly is running. (Swift adds to Fly speed, but I don't believe Sprint does, or at least City of Data says it doesn't)
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I like this idea for increasing the utility of the power, although that would counter any suggestion to "turn it off" by using -Fly. (Unless you turned off all other Fly powers by the same method) |
Originally Posted by Seldom
*edit*
That brings up another idea: what if the power granted an incredibly high flight mag and high resistance to -fly effects? As such the highest tier flight power would ensure those effected could resist grounding powers almost completely, where normal flight and raptor packs would be normally invalidated. |
Basically, the problem with Group Fly is three-fold:
1) It does not travel suppress, so the devs implemented the -Acc to keep it from being used in combat. But of course this makes it less useful for Masterminds, who might otherwise use it as a "flying platform" for their pets' attacks.
2) It provides different rates of speed for different targets of the effect, requiring concious effort to stay within the radius of the effect. Travel suppression, if it were implemented, would make this even worse.
3) Failure is immediate upon leaving the radius of the effect. The only way to counter this is to make the duration of the effect continue after the power is toggled off, which is unacceptable.
There really isn't a good solution. If you make it a long duration AoE, like Group Invisibility, it can't suppress, and so you're stuck with a -Acc even if you counter the Fly with Sprint. If you try to increase the range, you're processing more potential targets in the radius to determine if they are friend or foe. And if you make it single target, you lose most of its usefulness, especially to a Mastermind.
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Good point. |
Originally Posted by Jade_Dragon
This is a problem for many people with Speed Boost, too. I really doubt the Speed Boost "solution" would work here.
... |
What's really required to make both powers (Speed Boost and Group Fly) work better is a toggle that allows the recipient to control when the buff is on or off.
I was using Sprint as a possibility because its the one toggle everyone has. Its not ideal, because it costs a fair chunk of end to run. If you could, for example, turn Sprint on to avoid neutralise Speed Boost's +Run Speed, then you'd effectively lose some of the upside of +Recovery as well.
Refusing the buff a la Mystic Fortune is annoying because it pops up a dialog in your face, and also is a blanket yay or nay. You can't accept Speed Boost to run to the next mission but then turn it of for combat.
Maybe a generic "move normally" toggle with zero end cost is the ideal?
(The other toggle we all have is Walk. I've got to see what Group Fly does to a Walk-ing character, and what happens if you speed boost a walker. Could be funny, if not enlightnening.
)BTW good point also about a single target boost and Masterminds. I take that idea back - the aura is better.
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Walk could be that, IF it allowed you to use powers while it is running. My understanding is that the reason it turns off all powers is not for any balance reason, but because BaBs didn't want to delay releasing the Power until they had rewritten the animation for every single attack to mesh with it. |
Originally Posted by DrMike2000
Maybe a generic "move normally" toggle with zero end cost is the ideal?
(The other toggle we all have is Walk. I've got to see what Group Fly does to a Walk-ing character, and what happens if you speed boost a walker. Could be funny, if not enlightnening. ) |
The possibility still exists, though slim, that eventually animations will work their way into the other Powers, and Walk will become a toggle that can be used in combat. Sticking a -Fly in there probably wouldn't be any extra effort at all.
BTW, all Walk really does is lower the cap on your run speed. I'm guessing Speed Boost will not counteract it, but Group Fly should. You can't fight or anything with Walk on, but you'd be able to run at normal speed. In fact, you can presently jump at normal speeds with Walk, you can move a little faster that way.
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Someone else mentioned masterminds, but it's also useful for enemies that need to be fought high above the ground. For example; the Arachnos Flier, the Hamidon, Rikti Dropships, etc.|
Originally Posted by Stealth_Bomber
Just give us the option to refuse it just like teleportation that is unwanted.
I have yet to see a useful activation of this power on a team, but maybe I will witness it someday. |
Of course, it's much easier to just get jetpacks, but you can't count on everyone to carry one around with them. And group fly isn't banned by the "No temp powers" rule.
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Originally Posted by DrMike2000
Make Group Fly not affect teammates if they turn Sprint on.
This could work, since Sprint is a toggle that everyone has access to. Turning it on sort of signifies the desire to run rather than fly, so it makes a certain kind of sense. There's precedence of a kind with Rooted and some travel powers, CJ and Ninja Run, or the way that sprints turn each other off. I have the same setup on all my characters - ALT+right arrow toggle sprint, so it would work for me. Does anyone have a setup that this wouldn't work for, eg the "speed on demand" binds that turn sprint on and off dynamically in response to movment? |
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You're making me want to find someone with Group Fly just so I can see my Dwarf flying. |
Originally Posted by Stone Daemon
This could work for most people, but it wouldn't work so well on Khelds. IIRC, sprint isn't usable in Dwarf mode, so you would force them to shift forms to deny flight.
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My fixes would include:
- remove the level-scaling of max flight speed.
- group fly grants +max flight speed.
- As someone else suggested, add an inverse repel effect to pull guest back into the field if they leave it. (I'd probably make the +fly area significantly bigger than the -repel area, so that you wouldn't fall *and* get pulled back.)
- give players a way to decline (or cancel) the effect
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I agree, I think grant fly would be a lot more useful. I wish team teleport was team recall. Some great ideas here.
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Originally Posted by plainguy
Anything would be better then what they have now.
I always said change Group Fly to Grant Flight. Basically you buff a player to allow him to fly. The player pays for his own endurance cost and Pets pay for their own endurance cost. Similar to how Speed Boost works in concept. But without a doubt your idea seems much easier then reworking a power. |
"if I am guilty for what goes on in my mind, than give me the electric chair for all my future crimes"
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I've been waiting for a long while to be able to right click a buff icon and have the option to discard the buff. Maybe it's about time they implement it.
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Originally Posted by DrMike2000
The problem with a Grant Flight power is that it doesn't provide the target with the means to turn off their own flight.
Unless you make the flight granted incompatible with Sprints. Come to think of it, that might be better than the current aura implementation, although with a target-controlled off switch, the aura could also be made larger. Yeah, my ideal implementation would be a single target Grant Flight - lasts 4 minutes and can be deactivated by the user via Sprint. Good thinking, plain guy |
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That would be another way around it. |
Originally Posted by Auroxis
I've been waiting for a long while to be able to right click a buff icon and have the option to discard the buff. Maybe it's about time they implement it.
|
Of course, there are some "buffs" the devs would not want you to be able to discard, like the Vahzilok Wasting Disease, or the negative "cards" from Mystic Fortune.
Besides, just discarding a buff would not help with Group Fly, as it is a toggle, that "pulses" with every tick. You would discard the buff, only to have it immediately renewed. A better way to do it would be to "suppress" a buff. You could, say, right click on it and suppress it, and a red circle and slash would appear around it. Then, as long as the buff keeps being renewed, the system will know to suppress it.
This could even help with current travel power suppression, since the same symbol could appear to indicate when suppression is active. Maybe you could even manually suppress those powers on top of the automatic suppression. (So for instance if you wanted to use Super Speed or Flying in combat you could manually suppress it so it would at least be consistent)
Just summarizing my personal solution:
Group flight becomes 'Grant Flight.' (Or perhaps "Air Lift?")
- This is a PbAoE click buff, with a long duration. The icon would blink before fading this way, to warn effected players they would soon be leaving flight.
- The buff could be declined, with a toggle in options right next to the teleport declining toggle: Auto accept, auto-decline, or always ask.
- The power would grant equal speed to all users, and would grant them near-max speed flight.
- The power would have both high flight magnitude +fly and high -fly resistance, so users would be far more difficult to ground while it was active, and could get back in the air quickly if they were.
- Absolutely no team debuff.
The only downside is that the power would lose its awesome looking aura. The upside is that it is far more team/pet friendly, and has a use even if solo: getting back in the air.
*edit* Ya know what? why not keep the aura around the caster for its duration. Sure, it's giant, but I'll be darned itf it doesn't look really good, and it would be a good visual cue for when the power was active. Heck, eventually we might be able to customize pools, so it could have a no FX option too if/when that happens.
Stray thought, since we now have powers that actually grant other powers (Mystic Fortune, Secondary Mutation, alignment Count Down to ...), I wonder if it would be possible to have Group Fly grant a toggle flight power.
Group Fly might actually be useful for missions where you have to protect someone, since it lifts them up out of melee range. Might even keep Lady Gray from spazzing her way to an early grave.
It's one of those weird things tho. If this game had more scenarios where citizens were in like, actual danger, and we had to save them, this power would be one of the best around.
Make Group Fly not affect teammates if they turn Sprint on.
Group Fly suffers from 3 problems - the Acc penalty, the relative speeds of the allies and user, and the fact that allies can't turn it off.
The first two are easy fixes - remove the Acc penalty and make the allies fly a little faster than the user (including slotting). The third problem, giving allies control of when they can and can't fly, has always been trickier.
This could work, since Sprint is a toggle that everyone has access to. Turning it on sort of signifies the desire to run rather than fly, so it makes a certain kind of sense. There's precedence of a kind with Rooted and some travel powers, CJ and Ninja Run, or the way that sprints turn each other off.
I have the same setup on all my characters - ALT+right arrow toggle sprint, so it would work for me.
Does anyone have a setup that this wouldn't work for, eg the "speed on demand" binds that turn sprint on and off dynamically in response to movment?
Prestige Sprints should probably be included, which could make this marginally harder to code.
What do you guys think? Would this work?