No solution in this post Im afraid; just opinion.
But I did want to mention that I personally have never had any problem with suicidal pets. Im using Demon Summoning, but on the principle that basic subroutines work the same across all pet types (which they probably dont), Im not sure why thered be such difficulty in controlling them.
For random reference, I consult my Master Freeze bind:
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Pets stop moving, move into a passive state so they neither defend nor attack anything, cross their arms (so they dont yell, roar, and gargle noisily all the time), and I give a gentle and encouraging reminder to stay that way via a brief emote.|
Originally Posted by Sir Demonologists All Pet Stay Bind
DECIMAL "petcom_all stay pass$$petsay_all <em crossarms>$$em raisehand"
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As for an Immobilize effect, you already mentioned the potential combat unbalancing flaw of having such an effect in place, so I wont jabber bout that. Got to ask though--do all your pets have suicidal tendencies all the time? Its just Ive never seen any case of self-aware Henchmen going about disregarding a solid Passive order.
The AI broke with the release of Demons. I've had to stop playing my Bots because it's just so frustrating.
On the flip side, the 'run straight to melee' bug has finally made Ninja's playable for me.
Lose one gain one.
At least my Necro hasn't noticed, as his pets thrive in melee.
Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!
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Thanks for the thought, I use a similar command bound to "H" for "Heel" - Passive/Follow on all pets. Basically a "BEHAVE YOURSELVES AND COME HERE NOW DAMMIT" button.|
Originally Posted by Grant_Hammerhoof
For random reference, I consult my “Master Freeze” bind:
Pets stop moving, move into a passive state so they neither defend nor attack anything, cross their arms (so they don’t yell, roar, and gargle noisily all the time), and I give a gentle and encouraging reminder to stay that way via a brief emote. |
Unfortunately the problem isn't with GOTO or FOLLOW in "Passive" mode, do that and the pets'll ignore any attack or enemy. You can Passive/GOTO and they'll stay there all day. The problem is that pets are running away from where you tell them to be whenever they're "in combat".
Now with Melee orientated pets, this is fine. You generally want them to stray slightly from their GOTO location in order to whack nearby enemies. With Ranged pets, however, you want them to stay still. Especially if running away moves the stupid braindead pet in question out of range of your PBAoE buffs or heals, or into range of a Foe's PBAoE attacks, and especially especially if the pet in question, once it reaches melee range, stands about doing nothing until it finally remembers that it doesn't possess any melee attacks.
The "Passive + Attack" stance even brings the same behaviour into light - ranged pets will still run into melee randomly when told to attack something even when set to passive. The point is that an immobilise effect would FORCE pets to stay still, when attacking from a set position, or defending a set position.
Changing the "STAY" command stirkes me as the easiest thing to change to introduce this functionality, since (i) it would be optional and not interfere with the current "GOTO" behaviour - anyone who currently makes use of STAY purely as a "GOTO HERE" for their melee pets could still emulate that behaviour using "GOTO". And (ii) Forcing pets to remain in one position is pretty much the definition of what you'd expect a "STAY" command to do. So such a change should fall in line with the "Cottage rule".
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| As for an Immobilize effect, you already mentioned the potential combat unbalancing flaw of having such an effect in place, so I won’t jabber ‘bout that. Got to ask though--do all your pets have suicidal tendencies all the time? It’s just I’ve never seen any case of self-aware Henchmen going about disregarding a solid Passive order. |
I mentioned that an immobilise effect could be applied without needing to also apply knockback protection - basically so that if the STAY immobilise was be used, for example, in a fight versus ForceField Set Longbow Bosses, the Pets wouldn't gain any extra unintended benefit from it... they'd still get knockbacked or repelled or whatever by the power effects of whatever they're fighting. I don't think that's particularly unbalancing, indeed it's exactly the behaviour currently on live, with the exception that the pets wouldn't immediately run back to where you told them to stay whenever they get knockbacked - you'd need to tell them to GOTO there (to break the immobilise) and then STAY again.
It's not intended to unbalance anything, just get the pets to STAY where you tell them to STAY, without forcing you to have to switch back and forth between Passive/Follow and Aggressive/Attack hoping that manages to clear a misbehaving pet's "hate list".
Essentially, when I tell my pets to STAY, regardless of if they're in Defensive, Aggressive or Passive (though ideally Bodyguard mode would still be applied in Defensive), I want them to be forced to remain in one spot. So that they can't suddenly decide to run in and hug the nearest critter... or rather they might decide to, but they won't physically be able to.
Yes, I've noticed the effect is much more pronounced and annoying on Bots and Mercs than other primaries too... though I believe that the Thug's Arsonist is still the poster child for it!
As an aside:
The 'pets now die when dismissed' bug has made a certain power in Necromancy a great deal more useful.
Maestro Mavius - Infinity
Capt. Biohazrd - PCSAR
Talsor Tech - Talsorian Guard
Keep Calm & Chive On!
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It's a nice way to get pets to attack something whilst you remain in bodyguard more too.|
Originally Posted by MaestroMavius
As an aside:
The 'pets now die when dismissed' bug has made a certain power in Necromancy a great deal more useful. |
Especially if you're /traps.
Stick Pets in Defensive/Follow + spawn a new Force Field Generator... old FFG dies to let the new one drop in. Pets think, "Hey, that mob just killed our teammate!" and start attacking.
Used to work in PvP too, was great fun fighting in Siren's Call. Melee toons would walk up to me and not attack when I was in Full BG mode... then when they saw my pets start to attack them they'd hit me as they'd expect me to have just issued an "Attack" command so BG mode would be down... only to hit me for piddly damage...
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Sidenote: petsay binds with emotes no longer work. A macro will tho.
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Originally Posted by Grant_Hammerhoof
No solution in this post Im afraid; just opinion.
But I did want to mention that I personally have never had any problem with suicidal pets. Im using Demon Summoning, but on the principle that basic subroutines work the same across all pet types (which they probably dont), Im not sure why thered be such difficulty in controlling them. For random reference, I consult my Master Freeze bind: Pets stop moving, move into a passive state so they neither defend nor attack anything, cross their arms (so they dont yell, roar, and gargle noisily all the time), and I give a gentle and encouraging reminder to stay that way via a brief emote. As for an Immobilize effect, you already mentioned the potential combat unbalancing flaw of having such an effect in place, so I wont jabber bout that. Got to ask though--do all your pets have suicidal tendencies all the time? Its just Ive never seen any case of self-aware Henchmen going about disregarding a solid Passive order. |
Any and all spelling, grammar and logic errors are intentional so this post will blend seamlessly into the Internet
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Unbelievable. You, [subject name here], must be the pride of [subject hometown here]!
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Originally Posted by Maelwys
But here's my proposed fix: Make the "Stay" Mastermind pet command (which as I understand it is currently just "GOTO your current location" with a pretty symbol) inflict a high Mag immobilise (~100?) on the pets you issue that command.
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OK so far, couple of issues:
1. Please don't do this by default. The current behavior works well in many circumstances. Add a parameter to the GOTO command like "force" to invoke the new behavior. So a command needs to be like "petcom goto force aggressive" to get the immobilize behavior.
2. The devs will also have to add a counter to the Immobilize, something like a dispell. Right now the only way to do this is to buff status (mez) protection to override the mag of the immob. There might be a way to remove a given power or effect already in game, but I can't think of an example.
3. Each other command besides "goto force" is going to need this dispell, including the regular "goto". More work for the devs, unfortunately.
It's a good idea, but you can see how the workload increases once you start considering interactions with other parts of the game. I'd love to see smarter AI or other fixes, but I think the devs attention is mostly elsewhere right now. We can ask though; I'll support asking the devs.
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GOTO wouldn't be affected at all, it's the STAY command I'm proposing be replaced. It's available as a distinct seperate issuable command from the rest, but is currently coded as "GOTO here". This behaviour (STAY acting as "GOTO here") would be replaced with the new immobilise behaviour, but the behaviour of the GOTO command itself would not be touched. |
Originally Posted by gameboy1234
OK so far, couple of issues:
1. Please don't do this by default. The current behavior works well in many circumstances. Add a parameter to the GOTO command like "force" to invoke the new behavior. So a command needs to be like "petcom goto force aggressive" to get the immobilize behavior. |
See my later post in reply to Grant_Hammerhoof where I clarified this - I recognise that Melee pet sets can currently make good use of the "bugged" GOTO behaviour. I'd like to see the introduction of another option for the ranged sets since the GOTO behaviour currently isn't working for them... and since a STAY command is already coded into the game but isn't working as you'd expect it to, replacing it seems like the neatest option and one that wouldn't invoke the cottage rule.
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| 2. The devs will also have to add a counter to the Immobilize, something like a dispell. Right now the only way to do this is to buff status (mez) protection to override the mag of the immob. There might be a way to remove a given power or effect already in game, but I can't think of an example. |
I suspect though that like any currently-coded passive or toggle power this would be best implemented as a short duration automatically-reapplying buff. Example: Apply a 2 second duration Mag 100 immobilise. Reapplies every 1.5 seconds. Whenever this is "turned off", the power is not negated or "wiped", merely told to stop reapplying itself. The currently applied effect expires a few seconds later and for all intents and purposes the power is now "disabled". This is what happens whenever a toggle power is turned off (either by you disabling the toggle, or by the toggle power dropping due to mez or lack of endurance).
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| 3. Each other command besides "goto force" is going to need this dispell, including the regular "goto". More work for the devs, unfortunately. |
Alternatively the STAY command could introduce a passive or toggle on the Mastermind which affects nearby pets rather than the pet itself - something that if I remember correctly already happens with the "Supremacy" inherent.
Cheers for the comments though - it's certainly making me try and think this thing through more clearly!!
I've got a problem.
Well, more than one, obviously.
But the one that warrants a post on the MM boards is one that I'm sure the vast majority of you have experienced too: Pet AI. Specifially, the fact that certain pets spontaneously develop suicidal tendencies every now and again and decide to run from ranged into melee in order to spam a low damage attack, or just give the foe a great big hug.
This occurs rather randonly even if said pets don't actually HAVE a melee attack (I'm looking at YOU, Protector Bots!) and tends to be quite annoying for sets such as Robots, Mercs or Thugs where your pets otherwise tend to be quite well behaved and stay where you tell them to GOTO.
Now we could ask for an AI change, and it might even happen. But the likelyhood is that it's going to be very, very difficult to pin down each and every possible cause for the "Leeroy Jenkins" syndrome that Pets have developed. And frankly, some pet sets make good use of this very bug (Bruiser? Ninjas?) as certain pets have both ranged and melee attacks but work better in melee.
So don't mess with the AI.
Or the GOTO command.
But here's my proposed fix: Make the "Stay" Mastermind pet command (which as I understand it is currently just "GOTO your current location" with a pretty symbol) inflict a high Mag immobilise (~100?) on the pets you issue that command.
Given that you used to be able to buff pets individually with the upgrades, we know that code already exists for applying "new powers" onto pets. Whatever way it's easier to code would do, the point is just to FORCE pets to STAY at their current location and NOT MOVE, EVER. Until the MM tells them to.
Note that immobilise doesn't equal knockback protection, as we know from such powers as "Web Envelope". Literally all this will do to pets is root them in position and force them to wait or use ranged attacks - something the new AI is sort of OK with... when your pets are immobilised by an enemy they'll switch to ranged attacks more often than not.
(I suspect the "stay" command could function as a "toggle" - which the MM could detoggle manually or possibly automatically whenever a GOTO or FOLLOW or ATTACK command is given... or a looping passive that reapplies every X seconds until, again, it's removed by the MM issuing another command... but I happily leave the actual implementation up to better minds than mine!)
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TL: DR version -
Remove current "Stay" functionality.
Make it apply a high Mag immobilise mez to selected pet(s).
Ranged MMs be happy again.