For a set that starts strong and ends strong, there is always Demons. My Demons/Storm is 34 right now, and there didn't seem like there was a single part that was all that difficult.
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I don't think bots 'struggle'. They are definitely single target minions until level 32, except the Assault bot gets a flame thrower at level 26. Bots resist lethal and psy damage. In the early levels in the rogues that means hellions (edit: damned can be tough), skulls and Lost are pretty darn easy. Mez me you rector, I don't care, my bots will deal with you.|
Originally Posted by Nickolas85
Currently I have a Thugs/Traps MM I'm enjoying. I'm interested in starting another. The problem is that I'm not well-versed at all at the nuances of the different primaries other than the one I'm playing. From skimming the forums, I have very basic (and mostly negative) ideas about how they function.
I know that MM primaries don't really vary *too* much in playstyle, but I'd like to hear some general consensuses on the minions from the primaries and what their strengths and weaknesses are. You can be as detailed or as non-specific as you like. Here's an example of the kind of thing I'd like to see: Bots are strong in AoE post-32 but struggle in killing speed before that Here's what I'd like to not see: Bots suck thugs 4ever Suggestions for secondaries are welcome too, but I think I might shy away from buffing sets for a MM. Trying to maintain buffs on six pets and teammates seems...not fun. |
Bots are easy on the end because you don't have to resummon a kamikaze pyromaniac every other spawn. It's my experience that Bots have better range after the level 6 upgrade of the first tier. It's not a true snipe, but they seem to be able to attack and hit targets from range before the foe can close and return fire. That's an important factor since the robots also have kb to their advantage. My own personal rule of thumb is: if my robots and the mastermind knock the boss down just one time, he is DONE. The accumulating attacks will finish him before he can recover to regain the upper hand.
I ramble.
Now let me suggest a Necro/thermal build. Necromancy pets are usually described as very squishy. It's not really true. They have different resistances than bots, thugs or demons. Their biggest weakness is of course fire. After your thermal mastermind coats the undead with the thermal shields, one of the biggest strengths is fire resistance from the shields. A dark mastermind has heals, but he doesn't have the same prerequisite of mitigating the incoming damage. I know, I know: shadow fall, fearsome stare, darkest night and all the tohit deubuffs are incredible, and Necro/dark works. Thermal covers situations where aggro is accidentally grabbed. Necro/storm also mitigates incoming damage in a different way, but the steamy mist is a big fire resister, too.
Now the playstyle is really different since your necros puke early and often, a toxic attack that is rarely resisted but you want your grave knights to fight melee style with their big freaky swords. It's a heretical stance, but when I get that far, I put my little zombies on bodyguard and leave the grave knights on aggressive. Let them have their fun and follow along with support, and here I am talking on my Necro/thermal. Have a little macro for your knights: Attack my target. It gets really good when you get the Lich for support. That big guy eventually gets fearsome stare, one of the best powers in the game.
I will let someone else tell you the wonders of Demon Summoning.
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
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It's totally amazing. Great damage, buffs, holds, debuffs, EVERYTHING. Demons are the swiss army knife of Masterminds. |
Originally Posted by Psylenz
I will let someone else tell you the wonders of Demon Summoning. |
They also work well with a wide range of secondaries. As I mentioned, im Demons/Storm, and it's just fantastic. Running +2x3 right now, and just burning through the enemies.
I'll toss in a vote for Ninjas since no one has yet. got a Nin/TA in it's 20's right now, it's a lot of fun and you sail through your missions easily and quickly. Debuffs, controls, and the strongest single-target damage pets out of the primaries. WAA-CHAAA!!!
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I've got to agree... I feel like they did it right on Demons. Thugs are quite good, but they struggle with survivability at times. Demons feel powerful and durable.|
Originally Posted by Candlestick
For a set that starts strong and ends strong, there is always Demons. My Demons/Storm is 34 right now, and there didn't seem like there was a single part that was all that difficult.
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Right now every pet runs to melee range at times. At least Demons have good melee attacks to back that up... Although some might say that is what caused the problem, they screwed up all minion AI to make them work the way they do.
I'll list my feelings on each Primary...
Mercanaries is the most hated, so it's a good start. Small cones on most attacks (making them terrible at AoE) and long recharge times (Making them barely ever use the best attacks) currently ruin mercenaries, which is a shame because they're generic enough to work with almost anything someone wants to do, and they would have a nice mix of decent damage and control, otherwise. Who knows when they'll be fixed. I do feel like I see more of these newly made than ninjas, though, which is interesting.
Ninjas are frantic, especially tier 1. They fling/shoot their weapon, zoom in with run speed that is overkill, and start going at it. The Genin knockback their enemies, give chase... and throw them into other mobs. They've got great single target damage, arguably the best, but they are just... too aggressive. And they don't have the survivability for that. You have to micromanage the hell out of them, more-so than others. If you're good at it, or get good at it, they'll reward you. But they'll drive you crazy too. The oni is mostly fine.
Necromancy has zombies which just don't want to stay alive, in my opinion only the arsonist is more ready to die, and at least he earns that with great damage. I really feel like they make it so zombies die easily so you can Soul Extract them. The set leans heavily on Grave Knights for damage. They do a good job of it. The Lich is an oddity as his role is almost all debuff and control. They all have self-heal attacks at 32, and if you combine that with slotting for their to-hit debuffs and give them decent defense, it's actually fairly noticeable and their survivability goes up.
You've played Thugs. Damage, AoE damage, knockdown, and a suicidal tier 1 pet. They need the enforcers and you to give them defense, which is fine because the enforcers are great.
A bonus of Demons, Thugs and Necromancy is that their "panic button" power allows for Recharge Intensive Pets IOs, which lets you add in the unique IO pet auras for that. Plenty of people stick with these three because of that.
However Bots is still one of those most popular... And that's because they give you and themselves defense, and they heal themselves. Post-32 as you've said their AoE damage also goes up (As it does for most Primaries to be fair... but bots are ho-hum in damage before this so it's singled out here the most). Bots make it easiest to softcap defense as a primary, and they themselves are nice and tough. They also have a number of debuffs that are useful to you, and a team. Knockback is their biggest flaw (some people like it... these tend to be soloers. Bots lend themselves well to soloing)
Demons don't have the defense of Bots (or any defense). I'm sure that's very intentional, because "Defense is King" and that's probably the only thing stopping everyone from playing Demons. It's a harder road to softcap them, but they're very durable, still. Tier 1 lasts pretty well, but they still die off to a big AoE alpha until you have the defense to let them avoid that. All Demons have strong resistances to the most common damages, and the Ember Demon helps that out. The Ember Demon is a better healer than the Protector bots, and I'm fairly sure does more damage (especially once he gets fire ball, which actually, surprisingly, has the normal recharge time of 16 seconds). The Hellfire Gargoyle has knockdown attacks and a tiny AoE aura. All tier 1 and tier 2 pets have a cone breath attack of their element. Both ice (Demonling and Prince) do -Speed -Recharge. Both Hellfire (Fire/Toxic) do -RES. Both Fire (Demonling and Ember) are just fire, like fire is in any other set.... Don't think that ever has a debuff on it. The Demon Prince really shines in the set. He has controls, a hold strong enough to warrant slotting for it, and so much -rech that it's actually noticable, which is rare. He's basically a better Jack Frost. If you're on a team providing a lot of DEF I feel like Demons then bring the most to it, now.
You want to avoid Force Field and Thermal Radiation, obviously, if you don't want to be shielding/bubbling. You get used to it but it still feels like work. Pain is thermal-light, no shields in it, but you get less RES as a result.
Dark Miasma and Traps are almost definitely the most popular. They both do a bit of everything. These two have plenty of guides written for them.
Poison and Trick Arrow are the least popular. Neither is bad but other sets do what they do without their limitations. Poison is very single target. Trick Arrow has enough redraw to bother people in other ATs, but that isn't usually so much an issue as a MM because you aren't using attacks in a primary. Longish recharge times and no heal and entirely relying on controls/debuffs for mitigation are more the issue.
Storm Summoning is fairly hard to play but worth it once you learn its nuances. If you never do... Teams will absolutely hate you as many abilities can scatter mobs all over if used poorly.
To clarify, I'm familiar with buffing and know how to do it well, I think. I've played mostly Corrs and Defenders before my MM, so I'm not adverse to the playstyle, but rather the daunting thought of having to buff SO MUCH CRAP. For those who play MMs with a buffing secondary: Do you buff all your pets and all your teammates, or just your teammates?
Also, anytime Dark Miasma is an option you can bet I'm considering it. Dark Servant is my favorite pet ever. Sorry, Bruiser.
I'm really encouraged by all this tremendous feedback I'm getting, particularly the tip about Thermal's synergy with Necromancy. I don't think that would have occurred to me without this thread. Keep it coming, I'm learning a lot!
Also: I didn't mean to say that was actually my opinion on the performance of Bots/. I have no idea what Bots/ performs like, although I'm certainly getting a better idea now.
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I wouldn't say its that hard to play. You just gotta know when to use something, and when not to.
| Storm Summoning is fairly hard to play but worth it once you learn its nuances. If you never do... Teams will absolutely hate you as many abilities can scatter mobs all over if used poorly. |
My first MM that got to 50 was a Bot/DM. the best part is when the assault Bot gets his burn patch to go on top of your tar patch, and the bubbles that the protector bots produce mesh well with /DM's -tohit debuffs. the radius in Twilight Grasp is smaller for MM's though, but still a good heal anyway, once the melee till you die bug is fixed they'll stay right by your side in bodyguard mode to catch the heal with you.
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Beware of Dark Miasma on MMs if you're used to it on other ATs. It feels really weak at first. Twilight Grasp is the most noticeable difference. From 25 to 15 ft is a huge shrink in radius. However once you get used to the nerfing it's still incredibly powerful on MMs.|
Originally Posted by Nickolas85
To clarify, I'm familiar with buffing and know how to do it well, I think. I've played mostly Corrs and Defenders before my MM, so I'm not adverse to the playstyle, but rather the daunting thought of having to buff SO MUCH CRAP. For those who play MMs with a buffing secondary: Do you buff all your pets and all your teammates, or just your teammates?
Also, anytime Dark Miasma is an option you can bet I'm considering it. Dark Servant is my favorite pet ever. Sorry, Bruiser. |
On Thermal in a large team I don't shield my pets unless I find they're getting hit too often, so on low DEF teams I might. Shielding 17 times every four minutes is enough for me. I also rarely pick them as the target of forge... However often being the main heals to a team if I find that forging a blaster or scrapper is suddenly making it so that my end is being drained constantly healing them I'll use it on pets instead.
I dislike FF, I find it boring, but there is no reason not to shield pets on that. Thermal is a busy secondary, especially when you have enough recharge post 38 to use debuffs frequently. FF is not busy. Bubbling is your main job. People love you for it, so that's really all you have to do...
I'm leveling a Demons/Dark right now and it's a lot of fun. At 33 I'm pretty tough, though I believe my old Bots/Traps was better. On the other hand I had a lot less trouble in the late teens through mid 20s and I suspect once I get Fluffy at 38 my survivability will go up. The thing I really like about Demons is that they have a wide range of damage types and debuffs... almost nothing is strong against all of them. Plus the whip attacks are actually worth using... not for the damage (which is a joke, like all MM primary attacks) but for the 25% or so -resist they can stack on a boss / EB / AV. You can also apply around 8% -resist to a group with the cone whip attack, which is nothing to sneeze at.
Bots/Traps is, quite simply, the ultimate budget soloist. Nothing can match it for taking down hard targets with a minimal inf investment. If you have billions to spend some other builds can outperform it, but Bots/Traps can take down giant monsters using only SOs (at least in the hands of a really good player). With even a modest IO build you can smash just about anything, and a high end build is up near an Ill/Rad in survivability with significantly more damage. You can softcap yourself, softcap all the bots except the Protectors, and drop enough -resist and -regen on an AV to seriously ruin his day. The only real drawback is the long slow (for a MM) slog to level 32 since you have no real AoEs. (Bots/FF is even tougher, but the lack of debuffs makes it a lot weaker offensively, especially against EBs or higher.)
Those are the only two MMs I've played far enough to get the second pet upgrade. Really, Bots, Thugs, and Demons are all excellent and /Dark or /Traps goes well with anything. I've never played /Thermal but I suspect it would go well with Demons too... they have decent resists already so adding more can't be a bad thing.
Cascade, level 50 Blaster (NRG/NRG since before it was cool)
Mechmeister, level 50 Bots / Traps MM
FAR too many non-50 alts to name
[u]Arcs[u]
The Scavenger Hunt: 187076
The Instant Lair Delivery Service: 206636
After I finshed my Thugs/Dark I decided to make a Thug mm.
Demons are fun too 
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Say what?
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Originally Posted by _Klaw_
After I finshed my Thugs/Dark I decided to make a Thug mm.
Demons are fun too |
Triumphant Defenders Forever
Psylenz FF/Psi, ArticQuark Storm/Rad, Symon BarSisyphus Bots/psn, Max VanSydow Thugs/Dk, Cyclone Symon Bots/stm, Blue Loki Ice/Cd, Widow 46526
HelinCarnate:OMG it is so terrible. I have the option to take 3 more powers but no additional slots. Boo F'ing hoo.
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I thinks he's implying he likes Thugs enough to play it again. I am playing a Thugs/Traps and a Thugs/Pain and am really enjoying them. I have a 50 Robot/Dark which I quite liked and a 50 Robot/FF which is very effective from a survivability standpoint. But I got tired of doing the bubbles.
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Originally Posted by Psylenz
Say what?
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@SBeaudway on Pinnacle, TaskForce Titans Supergroup.
Mercs/ aren't the most hated, and they're definitely not one of the worst, especially if you put an achilles' heel proc or two in 'em, they're cheap enough to get now with the market merge.
Yeah I was trying to be funny after I got my thug/dark to 50 I then got a thug/storm to 50 and worked on a thug/pain but then Demons came out.
I`m running a Bots/Trap currently lvl 27 with capped defense, except Protector Bots. They have 35.6% defense not to shabby. I`m running 0x8 mission settings. Maybe there not the fastest killers, but its nice not having to resummon all the time. Its very nice not face planting on 0x8 missions ^^
My defense are 46.8%. Force Field Generator, Bubbles from Protector bots, 2 pet aura IO`s, & Shield Drone. To increase AoE I use hand grenades, Sands of Mu, & Plasmatic Tazer. Temp Powers are cheap & easy to make ^^
Currently I have a Thugs/Traps MM I'm enjoying. I'm interested in starting another. The problem is that I'm not well-versed at all at the nuances of the different primaries other than the one I'm playing. From skimming the forums, I have very basic (and mostly negative) ideas about how they function.
I know that MM primaries don't really vary *too* much in playstyle, but I'd like to hear some general consensuses on the minions from the primaries and what their strengths and weaknesses are. You can be as detailed or as non-specific as you like. Here's an example of the kind of thing I'd like to see:
Bots are strong in AoE post-32 but struggle in killing speed before that
Here's what I'd like to not see:
Bots suck thugs 4ever
Suggestions for secondaries are welcome too, but I think I might shy away from buffing sets for a MM. Trying to maintain buffs on six pets and teammates seems...not fun.