What defenses are there against -Regen?

I think your only chance is regular old defense to help keep the -regen attacks from landing. Clicking Moment of Glory should also keep you pretty safe for 15 seconds, which might be enough for it to wear off, and the defense from it should help keep more debuffs from landing. I think it's mostly about prevention and surviving through them. I haven't looked at what's available red side, though. Maybe there's something.

One of these days Regeneration will be up for proliferation and it is going to get some nice buffs. On that day, I may even play the set again.

No unfortunately it doesn't have anything to combat -Regeneration, and Castle doesn't seem to see that a set that is 50% passive regeneration needs some form of -regeneration debuff resistance so I wouldn't hold my breath on Regeneration getting any buffs.

Carnies due the same to my shield they chew him up it also does not help the ring mistress and the master illusion have a few attack that are psi gerr. I have to dance around and pull around a corner to get off aidself and if I am on my ball of lighting build I die more often they go through my greens in no time

Yeah I stopped playing my Fire/Regeneration in PvE all together, it just wasn't fun anymore face planting and it turned into frustration mainly due to the negligence that Regeneration has been getting for the last 4 years.

Well, when the game launched, wasn't Regen the most overpowered scrapper secondary with Instant Healing being a toggle?

Maybe they are afraid that if they buff Regen it will be overpowered again.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

Considering that the only thing that Regen really needs is some debuff resistances along the same lines as they've given every other set in the game, the "it was strong back then so we shouldn't touch it now" logic doesn't really stand (and any argument that */Regen is designed around having debuffs as a weakness can stuff it considering how friggin' common debuffs are nowadays).

There's also the fact that, even if Regen got a little bit of a buff, it still wouldn't be the most powerful set out there thanks largely in part to the new sets that have been made: WP and Shield (and possibly Fire now as well). WP does everything Regen does, plus more, without requiring any skill to accomplish anything. Shield is just ridiculous for effective contribution. And neither set really has an appreciable weakness.

The biggest problem that I've seen in any attempt to numerically justify buffing Regen is that, in every survivability model out there, damage recovery mechanisms are massively overvalued (or straight up mitigation mechanisms are undervalued, either or). Regen is a set that survives almost entirely based off of damage recovery so any numbers that you get from those types of analysis are going to reflect that flaw. Even more so, the existing survivability constructs that I've seen have no real way of attaching any real value to those things that Regen needs most (debuff resistances) so you can't really claim that Regen is somehow handicapped by a lack of debuff resistances that every other set out there has (which seem to really be handed out largely arbitrarily as token gestures of powering up specific powers, except in the cases of defense sets that need it to avoid cataclysmic defense debuff cascade).

I guess but that still doesn't mean it should be neglected, almost every scrapper secondary has been buffed/changed since their original incarnations, Regeneration however has been castrated and to my knowledge hasn't buffed to compensate for its lackings.

I can recall one substantial buff since the nerfs of bygone dev eras: the MoG change. It used to be a completely useless power that only ever served to assure you of a death a few minutes after you activated it. Now it's one of the hallmark powers of the set that, if people don't take it, we scream at them for it. It's the only one I can really think of, and I'm pretty sure every other set has seen more love since then, but it's unfair to say that the devs have simply left */Regen fallow when they haven't.

I did forget about the MoG change, and you are right about me being wrong, but also like you pointed out other sets have seen a lot more change than regeneration has and that makes me sad panda.

The thing is.. Regen plays really well with some particular primaries..

It's hard to justifably buff it I think.

Any primary that can cause knockback/down or any type of lag in incoming attacks gives the regen person a good chance to bring their health back pretty quick.

-Regen doesn't really effect Regen as bad as people think. It's a much bigger problem for Willpower, but they've got mitigation against it. Regen also has clicky heals which gives them an edge to any -regen they may encounter. It's -rech that's the big issue for regen. Whatever slows you down from clicking DP, MOG, the base heal power (name eludes me), and instant healing.

That doesn't meant he regen isn't important (as it's basically what functions as your res/def (the ability to take a hit and regenerate most of the HP lost relatively quickly), but just like armors that have psi holes and such, the clicky heals give mitigation to that.

That being said. When you pair regen with primary that can cause stuns, or knockdown, or -tohit or katana/broadsword it really REALLY performs well.

Especially in the case of Katana and Broadsword. Parry/divine avalanche do a great job removing that melee hole which makes regen even MORE potent. Add to the fact that both have knock down powers and regen becomes stronger.

If regen gets assessed, I feel like any primary set that gives regen a leg up (dark, bs, katana) are going to have to be assessed too (or risk making those super overpowered flavor of the week characters), and frankly it's not something I really want to see happen.

My dark/SR slightly outperforms my BS/regen in terms of survivability (thanks to that great self heal damage dealer in dark, and capped defenses). But the difference is pretty marginal.

*Edit* And while I know IO's really help out EVERY defensive set, I certainly feel that regen really improves with some good placement of sets, possibly to the point of benefiting the most from them.

The only reason it is hard to justifiably buff */Regen is because, from the calculated survivability models we've got, */Regen looks really good. The problem with this, as I said before, is that the weaknesses of */Regen are downplayed while the the strengths are built up within these models. The reasons you actually posit for not buffing Regen aren't even largely true, anyways.

The same thing applies to any other set out there. Mez effects and -tohit and +def help out everyone and, in the case of -tohit and +def, help out other sets more than Regen because Regen doesn't have gobs of defense to stack up with it.

I'm not entirely sure how you got here, but that's a very strange place to arrive from "DA/Parry are awesome for Regen". DA/Parry is awesome for every single set in the entire game. It's not something exclusive to Regen. Reassessing Regen could quite easily be done exclusive of Kat and BS, if only because the devs don't make an assumption that anyone that rolls Regen is going to roll with BS or Kat.

Because DA/Parry causes a reduction in outgoing damage, Kat and BS still perform perfectly well for sets that don't need additional defense because it allows the user to focus entirely upon dealing damage. It's largely the same reason that Siphon Life's +heal is still useful to a Regen or a WP even though it's a drop in the bucket compared to what they're already getting.

You really need to start paying attention to the state of the game if you honestly believe this. Regen gets the least out of IOs than almost any other set in the game largely because, of the things that IOs provides gobs of (+rech, +def, +regen, +recov, +hp), Regen only really benefits from +rech and +def. Every other set out there benefits from every single one of those (with a few sets not really seeing much out of +recov or +hp), and a number of those sets see a helluva lot more from +def because those sets are actually capable of softcapping whereas Regen can, at most, hope for 30-35% with very heavy +def slotting. IOs are one of the areas that Regen loses ground, and it loses a lot of ground there.

Yeah, my survivability model has the exact flaws you mention. I don't account for debuffs at all, and my model cares only that hit points remain roughly steady (more technically take a random walk), and don't take into account that hit points that are on a random walk can easily hit zero, and that for an equal survivability number in my model, the probability of hitting zero on a Regen scrapper (where the random walk takes frequent and HUGE steps) is much higher than the probability of hitting zero on pretty much any other set (which take less frequent and smaller steps, sometimes much smaller). Now, I keep those flaws in mind when I'm actually using my models, but it also means I have no numerical means of comparing anything but very similar builds. Which means my model has no way of telling you how Regen compares to, say, Willpower, because they are drastically different sets. I can come up with numbers, but from there, it's pure fudge factors trying to say how they REALLY compare, and the margin of error in those fudges will be much larger than the differences, making the comparison pretty much useless.

Same experience here. Very comparable survivability, probably slight edge to my DM/SR over Katana/Regen.

But just as Katana gives Regen exactly what it needs, Dark Melee gives Super Reflexes exactly what it needs.

And really, most Katana and Broad Sword combinations tend to be very good in the survivability department. I wouldn't worry that they're bringing something to Regen that they aren't to other sets. My Katana/Dark, for instance, is much more survivable than my Katana/Regen.

Almost completely off topic... If I jump through all the hoops to get it, and then jump through all the hoops to get back to hero side, do I lose it? I've not paid attention because I don't like red side, and figured I'd be bringing toons the opposite direction.

Because yeah, perma Hasten, Divine Avalanche and Shadow Meld sound like they could be a tasty combination on Regen.

It is my understanding that once you earn the villain pools you get to keep them even if you respec. That still means going villain side, doing the arc, and going heroside again. I mean it would be pretty unbalanced to hand villains all the hero side APPs and not let heroes keep the villain ones.

The big downside of Shadowmeld is if you are over reliant on it you lose a lot of DPS to animation. On the other hand, I can run a Regen with almost perma Hasten that still has ~40 defense to S/L and a smattering of defense in F/C and E/N to bring Shadowmeld to cap there as well so...

I agree that the strengths for it are really good but it does have weaknesses.. But I certainly don't think it's more deserving of buffs than other sets. I would love to see it happen but I don't think it will.

I disagree.. SR gets benefits to -tohit and +def when you've got lower levels, but with io's it's very easy to hit capped levels with it anymore (without being a "power player"). Couple that with certain sets not having heal powers (shield and SR) then the only thing you may be mitigating is incoming damage.. Whereas Regen (and willpower) get added bonuses by having much higher regen levels that make that incoming damage reduction doing more than removing life from your life bar, but also providing you inspiration/click power free time of getting life back in many cases. Like I said with my level 50 Bs/Regen with capped melee def, I get hit once get a chunk of life taken away and a few seconds later I'm back up to full life again without thinking.. That's not something my SR really can do. Sure he won't get hit as often as the /regen, but I'm FORCED to take aid self (which basically if interrupted becomes a -end power) if I want self healing.

Sure the -tohit and +def benefits resistance sets.. But to say Regen gets the LEAST benefit from them I can't agree with. I'll get onto it more later.. But it's the basis of why I think if Regen gets re-assessed we may see Katana/BS getting looked at again specifically the parry power. Perhaps not the set as a hole but the power of parry may.

I don't think it can. I agree I'd love to see Regen Perform equally well on any set, so I could make fire regen and survive just about as well as kat/regen or whatever. But there is no denying that 2 stacking parry/da takes Regen from a meh set to a very good set that can rival most other defensive sets. It would hold true for parry as well.

And yes you're right for MOST other defense sets you're going to have some bonuses for parry/da but again I still feel the time it's buying to allow your natural regen to bring your life back (without using a click heal power, dp, IH, or mog 3 of which making themselves somewhat equivalent to defense or resistance of other sets, not a direct correlation but it's there). So I still stick with my feeling that I get MORE out of DA/parry on a regen than any other set thanks to the higher natural life regeneration. You're entitled to disagree, I'm merely stating my experiences, and in my experiences, my Kat/Elec (scrap) and my Kat/Nin (stalk) get less out of DA than the regen.

I can't argue that, but again not every set is going to get the same if not more benefit out of DA/Parry like Regen does.

Again I disagree. Regen does NOT get the least out of IOs.. Look at what you say IO's largely give.. +rech, +def + regen + recov +hp.
Of those things regen makes HUGE gains out of 4 out of the 5. Recovery isn't an issue because a regen doesn't run as many toggles and with QR, and stamina if you so choose (I do since I'm already getting health to bolster my regen more).

But regen probably gains the most benefit from +recharge so you can get DP to perma/near perma.. Doing so gets you a reconstruction that comes up in under 20 seconds and a Mog that come sup about a minute 15 seconds. Sure Instant healing still takes a while to recharge, but honestly.. In my experience I use that power the least, so it's almost always up when I need it. So +recharge is good. Lets look at the other sets now..
Dark armor, ok dark regen (best heal in the game) comes up much more often that's always good. Fiery ok you can put healing flames on the green ring and let it go, Invuln perma dp good too, Shield, more shield charge and active defense.. Not really contributing to my regaining life (the the KD in shield charge is nice mitigation), SR more practiced brawler... No other benefit.. Willpower... You can rez faster.. So for regen not only is 4 of your 9 defensive powers having more benefit (didn't count rez who cares about it) due to +rech, more than any other defense.. On top of that it helps your primary too.

+Def: Ok yes you're right any set gains benefit from this whether you're soft capping, providing additional defense so you're taking less hits with your high resistances etc. But again the combination of clicky heal powers with regen in my opinion give an advantage here. When you can without trying very hard get 20% defense to all positions with regen (which is somewhat similar to non IO'd willpower, add in consistent regen numbers whether you're fighting 1 or 10 guys something willpower can't do) and add the click heals you've got some good survivability. Sure you need to pay more attention to the life bar than any other set out there, but you've got some decent defense (VERY strong with the right primary sets), and the ability to make that HP bar almost seem endless.. Again there's a certain point where +Defense on the defense sets aren't quite as useful (since they're relatively easy to cap) but with no way to return hitpoints without adding in the medince pp.. then in my opinion regen (and willpower) get more benefit from +def.. Similarly res sets get more out of it too since it reduces the incoming damage all togehter as well as for how much it hurts when it does hit.. But again Regen is certainly not getting the least benefit in this category either.

+Hp and +Regen: These go hand in hand to me. By adding more Hp you regen more Hp/S.. That's pretty standard.. And everyone benefits more from more HP/S However, Willpower and Regen BOTH are going to benefit MORE from this than any other set. The difference.. Willpower will outperform (or at least be more consistent than) Regen (in terms of regenerating life) when IH is down in mobs of 10, but 1vs1 a regen will generally outperform a willpower. Why? Because when RTCC is not at full you've got less overall hp/s being returned than regen, and you don't have the benefit of click heal powers. I agree that overall without factoring in IO's willpower will perform better than Regen. But with both primary's IO'ed up you can see comparable defense numbers, a bit better resistance on willpower, but more overall hp/s with regen 1vs1, and willpower the have clicky abilities for when situations get worse than the natural regen can handle.

Certainly WP performs lovely in a group of 10 when RTCC is fully working, and since it's up all the time it's more reliable than IH, but when IH is up it still performs better. Again go to the clicky heals and when IH is running Regen can vastly out perform WP. One other SLIGHT drawback to RTTC is that it's an agro tool. So while you're HP/s numbers are up you're probably taking more incoming damage thanks to it. Regen doesn't have an agro aura (unless that changed at some point and I don't realize it) so you in a huge battle you don't have an aura drawing even more attention than your high damage already does.

And please.. Don't interpret what I'm trying to say as, "regen is the best scrapper power set in the world, omg!" Because I'm not. It's certainly not the worst either though. And while I would personally LOVE to see it buffed, I still stick by the statement that Regen can be made to perform VERY well (above and beyond some other scrap sets), especially with certain primary combinations.

Scrapper in general is my favorite AT to play, and I'd love to see a Spines/Regen perform as well as Kat/Regen, or Claws/Regen actually feel like a wolverine esq character (as willpower truly creates the most realistic wolverine character). But I think there are power combinations with /regen that give it the survivability equal to or better than other power sets (again especially with IO's) that are preventing it from happening (like you say, it skews the survivability model), and it's rational to think that if regen gets a buff some of those other power sets might get looked at too (other wise if they aren't the survivability model will make regen look over powered comparatively).

That being said, I still would love to see what people propose be done to Regen that wouldn't overpower it, because I DO want to see it buffed, I just don't see it happening.

You are 100% correct here. My experience with DM/SR has been a very slight skew towards dm/sr over bs/regen, but not so significant I feel a complete retool of my regen is needed.

But I've seen people propose changing SR's Elude to get +regen vs +recovery. When an outside source through DM can grant SR some healing. Just like Katana/Bs can grant Regen some outside defense.

Hence why for survivability I don't think Regen needs MUCH tweaking. I would love to see some -rech debuff added in (that's vital for a regen). -Regen would be nice but isn't quite as neccessary. To be honest if I were to propose changes to regen I'd work on some of the recharge times, maybe drop it a bit for IH or the other click heals since that's really where the "damage mitigation" is coming from for that set.

If the base set came with recharges on the healing clickies moving the core set closer to an IO build going for perminent dull pain than it currently does I think that'd make a big difference in how Base Set Regen compares to Base Set everything else. Where a /SR can focus on getting the +def to get to the cap and then focus on whatever else, a /regen could focus on getting to perma dp (which comes with quicker recon and IH and mog) and then focus on whatever else.

But I can live without that if at the very least they make sure my rech doesn't get hit very badly. I'd love to see regen get -rech debuff defense on par with sr's -def debuff since that's the core of a /regen.

I'm working on figuring out a build that does this as well.
On the same hand without Shadow Meld my Regener does not rely on popping Mog everytime it's up right now.
but being able to pop mog and then pop SM if it was neccessary is a tasty idea.