Jolting Chain: Chains are Auto-Hit?
By
Amber_Sherman,
Posted on: 2010-08-23 19:03 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Sorry, I forgot to mention something which came up in beta, and it slipped my mind. I slightly misspoke when I said arcs were like shooting power bolts. Actually the "arcs" are actually AoEs with a target maximum of one.|
Originally Posted by Jabbrwock
Arcanaville, I have a question. Does the chain effect work as Tex's diagram suggests, where a missed single jolt stops itself and all children, or does it keep going until it either hits its 15 target cap or until all jolts have missed or died due to lack of eligible targets? His testing suggests the latter case - that if one of the first two branches fails, the targets will in all likelyhood be jolted by branches spawned from the other one. That would make it extremely unlikely for the chain to die out without either hitting its target cap or rendering all targets in range ineligible for jolting.
Tex, if my thesis is correct, the reason you never saw an entire half of the tree fail to jolt is because once you reach the bottom of the left side of the tree, assuming the right side failed, then you still have active jolts on all the targets at the bottom of the left side, and their only valid targets are the unjolted targets who would supposedly have been jolted by the right side. So unless you manage to kill *ALL* the jolts off to missing or traversing far enough away that there are no eligible unjolted targets, the chain won't stop until it reaches its target cap. |
That's not the same thing as being a single target attack, because when you shoot a single target attack, if it hits it hits, and if it misses it misses and its over either way. But when an AoE fires at a group of targets, and it has a target cap, the AoE will try each and every target within its radius until it hits its target cap. So if there are multiple targets within Jolting Chain's 15 foot jumping radius, it will get several tries to "find" a target. If it misses them all, that arc will indeed die, but if you are at 95% tohit, or even above 90%, then as long as there are at least two *valid* targets within range the streakbreaker will guarantee the arc will find a target and make the jump.
I mention "valid" targets because as previously mentioned, an arc cannot jump to a target that has been hit by another arc within the last five seconds. But if you unleash Jolting in a dense spawn, the odds are pretty good that you'll eventually connect with all 15 targets, just because for an arc to "die" it has to miss *every* legitimate target in range. That either requires all targets to be currently "invisible to arcs" or your tohit has to be low enough for even the streakbreaker to be unable to save you.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Yes, but with a catch. Because the jolting "immunity" only lasts for five seconds, it is possible for the arcs to "loop back" to other targets deeper in the chain.
In other words, I hit target A. Target A fires an arc at target B 2 seconds after getting hit, and an arc at target C 4 seconds after getting hit. Target B then shoots an arc 2 seconds after it was hit, which is 6 seconds after A was hit. That arc *can* loop back and hit A, because A is now free to be hit again. Because the arcs will tend to target the *closest* target that is still *valid* to be hit, you can get interesting looping chaining effects as jolting chain worms its way around a dense spawn of targets. |
I hear you. The chart is actually supposed to show the chain of jolt 'children,' not potential targets. I have witnessed the chain jumping back to previous targets (there's a screenshot showing that earlier in the thread) so agree that's how that part works. What I've yet to witness is a situation where only 7-8 jumps are fired because one of the first two jumps from the first target misses.
[Nevermind, just saw your post above. I will reply in a moment. My team will kill me if I AFK on them again. Good thing I'm playing Force Fields.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Sorry, I forgot to mention something which came up in beta, and it slipped my mind. I slightly misspoke when I said arcs were like shooting power bolts. Actually the "arcs" are actually AoEs with a target maximum of one.
That's not the same thing as being a single target attack, because when you shoot a single target attack, if it hits it hits, and if it misses it misses and its over either way. But when an AoE fires at a group of targets, and it has a target cap, the AoE will try each and every target within its radius until it hits its target cap. So if there are multiple targets within Jolting Chain's 15 foot jumping radius, it will get several tries to "find" a target. If it misses them all, that arc will indeed die, but if you are at 95% tohit, or even above 90%, then as long as there are at least two *valid* targets within range the streakbreaker will guarantee the arc will find a target and make the jump. I mention "valid" targets because as previously mentioned, an arc cannot jump to a target that has been hit by another arc within the last five seconds. But if you unleash Jolting in a dense spawn, the odds are pretty good that you'll eventually connect with all 15 targets, just because for an arc to "die" it has to miss *every* legitimate target in range. That either requires all targets to be currently "invisible to arcs" or your tohit has to be low enough for even the streakbreaker to be unable to save you. |
OK, this explains perfectly everything that I have seen with the power up to this point.
It is not "auto hit" in the sense that it is flagged that way. But because it's launching AoEs, if you get targets close enough together, with decent accuracy it will almost never stop chaining early in the cycle. At a 95% chance to hit, assuming you have 10 enemies within range of the first target, the actual odds of one of the two child arcs failing is not 10% like it would be with a single attack, but 0.000000000009% BEFORE StreakBreaker, and zero after.
This also explains why the power seemed to favor the unarmored guy in the test with the tanks and the squishy. The tanks were making their defense rolls, so the power would miss most of them, but it would hit him, almost making it seem like it was "attracted" to him.
The reason my character got two back to back to-hit checks during the Confusion test was because after hitting the first target, the power had spread to at least two additional targets. When I became confused, I became the only valid target left. The first jolt missed me, so I didn't get flagged invalid. This allowed the second jolt to jump to and hit me. If I had had teammates or pets, the power would have gone after them next. However, it had no valid targets in range, so it ended with me.
It all makes sense now, I think. Thanks Arcana. Can I ask how in the world you figured out the actual mechanics behind this?
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I confirmed the behavior of the power by setting up AE missions that allowed me to test each part of the power, and recorded those to watch in slow motion and examine by log recordings. I set up a number of tests by arranging spawns that were in round clusters, close to being in lines, etc, and watching their behavior.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Can I ask how in the world you figured out the actual mechanics behind this?
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One trick I learned specifically for testing this power was to make a ranged custom critter and set up one character (in one account) to knock them back out of range. They would then move up into range, stopping at their nominal range. The result was a group of critters shooting at me from range all almost in a perfect line. Then I would log in acct #2, stealth into the mission, and jolt the guy at the end of the conga line and watch the power work its way up the line. Those kinds of things were very helpful in confirming how the power worked.
Interestingly, I learned this sort of trickery from farming Empath back in the day. You wouldn't think that would be a learning experience, but then again I don't think anyone was really doing it quite the way I was.
However, I should point out that I didn't figure out how the power worked that way. I confirmed how the power worked that way. I figured out how the power worked by ... actually in this case I can honestly say that I had a need to know, so Castle told me. In general, though, my stock answer is I'm a really really good guesser. That being the only answer I can post.
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Totally off topic, but Arcanaville? I love that you have Misfile in your signature. It's one of my constant bookmarks, and this is the first time I've noticed that.
On topic: The more I hear about this power, the more it makes me glad I got it.
Are you sure that information is for Jolting chain for the 5 second invunerable from jolting? Sounds more like that might apply to overload as jolting is alot faster then 2 seconds a jump and if it had the 5 second invunerable from jolting what would be the point of having 2 pets with this on a 6 second recharge along with your 8 second one. While i haven't fully tested jolting out completely like static field I could of swore it worked on knocking down all the same targets even after someone else had used it or my 2 gremlins. I can see a shorter timer on this though to keep from turning 2 low mag knockbacks into a higher one but not the 5 second timer.
Not sure about overload though as I tend to throw it on bosses and let it do its thing in groups that kill minion/lt's slower but have noticed this one does take a second or 2 to jump and can jump after a target gets closer to others from confuse effect and can see the 5 second rule to keep it from massively stacking a confuse up on two targets next to each other like a AV or so.
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My information may be out of date: I haven't checked since about two patches before beta closed. I'll double check in a bit.|
Originally Posted by raptis
Are you sure that information is for Jolting chain for the 5 second invunerable from jolting? Sounds more like that might apply to overload as jolting is alot faster then 2 seconds a jump and if it had the 5 second invunerable from jolting what would be the point of having 2 pets with this on a 6 second recharge along with your 8 second one. While i haven't fully tested jolting out completely like static field I could of swore it worked on knocking down all the same targets even after someone else had used it or my 2 gremlins. I can see a shorter timer on this though to keep from turning 2 low mag knockbacks into a higher one but not the 5 second timer.
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Hmm. Sorry, my memory must be playing tricks with me. I just checked the current live version, and the jumps aren't 2 seconds apart. The jumps start off fast and ramp down. The initial jumps are delayed 0.25s and 0.5s from the initial target hit. The step 2 jumps are delayed 0.5s and 1.0s from the moment the initial jumps hit. And the step 3 jumps are delayed 1.0s and 2.0s from the moment the step 2 jumps hit their targets.
Weirdly, the target of the attack is set to avoid jumps for 4 seconds, the targets of the tier 1 jumps are set to avoid jumps for 5 seconds, and then the targets of the tier 2 jumps are set to avoid jumps for 4 seconds again, and then the targets of the tier 3 jumps are set to avoid jumps for 2 seconds. That's weird: I think it used to be all the same (5s) earlier in the beta. Oh well.
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Huge thanks for all this, Arcana. You've shown that a lot of the complaints about Jolting Chains and Synaptic Overload are really unjustified. This thread needs to be required reading for all Electric Control doomsayers.
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It still has a chance to flat out miss all the mobs in a spawn with no effect. I don't know of any other AoEs that behave this way so.....|
Originally Posted by Blue_Fenix
Huge thanks for all this, Arcana. You've shown that a lot of the complaints about Jolting Chains and Synaptic Overload are really unjustified. This thread needs to be required reading for all Electric Control doomsayers.
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DOOOOOOM!
.....but yes thanks for posting this info all. Very insightful.
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You, sir, do have my permission to doomsay all you like, as you have, in fact, read this thread.
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Originally Posted by saltyhero13
DOOOOOOM!
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It seems that Jolting Chains is an all or nothing power. If you hit the first one, the chains propogate enough that it hits most, if not all, of everything within range.
But if you miss that first one, you get nothing.
Most other AoEs all but guarantee that you will hit some but not all large groups (highly unlikely to miss all of them and just as unlikely to hit all of them if the group is large enough.)
I think it's a fair trade. My only concern is that the chain frequently dies because one member of the spawn is just outside the range. It's probably a bigger problem soloing than in a large group. More targets gives the chain more chances to spread and then loop back. But I frequently only hit two out of three or three out of four critters because the spawn was too spread out.
I would like for the range to be just a teensy bit longer. Or, perhaps if I slot for range and that effects the chain beyond the first one, that would be acceptable. Does anyone know whether or not range slotting carries to subsequent chains?
50s: Inv/SS PB Emp/Dark Grav/FF DM/Regen TA/A Sonic/Elec MA/Regen Fire/Kin Sonic/Rad Ice/Kin Crab Fire/Cold NW Merc/Dark Emp/Sonic Rad/Psy Emp/Ice WP/DB FA/SM
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I've never tested this, but I'm going to say probably not because the jump distance of the arcs is ultimately the radius of a PBAoE surrounding the target the arc is coming from. Radii of spherical or PBAoEs are not enhanced by range slotting in the general case.|
Originally Posted by Bionic_Flea
Does anyone know whether or not range slotting carries to subsequent chains?
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Probably worth testing to be sure.
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To be honest the range of this power's jumps is my only "beef" with this power. In game I have noticed an increased tendency to spawn spread out mobs which really hurts this powers ability to effectively control a full sized spawn. I am "guesstimating" that the jumps can span an 8' gap (definitely no bigger than 10').|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
I've never tested this, but I'm going to say probably not because the jump distance of the arcs is ultimately the radius of a PBAoE surrounding the target the arc is coming from. Radii of spherical or PBAoEs are not enhanced by range slotting in the general case.
Probably worth testing to be sure. |
Do you know the precise distance Arcana?
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15 feet radius, so the arc can jump a maximum of 15 feet to another target. But it will preferentially jump to targets closer rather than farther due to the way AoE targeting works (from the center outward until it hits the target cap, which in this case is one).|
Originally Posted by saltyhero13
To be honest the range of this power's jumps is my only "beef" with this power. In game I have noticed an increased tendency to spawn spread out mobs which really hurts this powers ability to effectively control a full sized spawn. I am "guesstimating" that the jumps can span an 8' gap (definitely no bigger than 10').
Do you know the precise distance Arcana? |
One more little tid-bit I just noticed. The accuracy of the first jump arcs is 2.0, meaning it has double the normal accuracy. The accuracy of the second jump arcs is 1.5 (or +50% accuracy if you prefer). The accuracy of the third jump arcs is 1.0, or normal accuracy. Jolting Chain itself has standard accuracy.
So if you can hit the first target, the first two arcs that come out of that target will have very high accuracy, and that accuracy will decay with each successive jump. The intent seems obviously to front-load the chaining: the first jumps are very fast and very accurate, and the back end deeper arcs are successively slower and less accurate. Still, you're very likely to end up with close to fifteen total strikes against the spawn eventually assuming there are enough targets to go around.
I do not know with 100% certainty, but I presume, that accuracy and tohit buffs that the player has "follow" the arcs. I never got around to testing that specifically.
Also, just in case anyone wants to know, Jolting Chain arcs require line of sight to the target. They cannot (or rather should not) arc around corners to other targets. But that line of sight is from target to target, not from player to target. It can wrap around corners if the targets collectively wrap around corners.
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This is what I love about this power. I'm glad its WAI.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
It can wrap around corners if the targets collectively wrap around corners.
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It seems shorter that that. I'll wait until they are done patching this release before I start looking at this more closely, but I hope we are not getting short changed here.|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
15 feet radius, so the arc can jump a maximum of 15 feet to another target.
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Do you know if the -recovery is supposed to propagate through all its jumps?
Apologies for asking, as I'm sure I ought to know the answer. Do procs affect the all targets, or merely the initial target?
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Depends on which procs you are specifically talking about. The damage procs follow through each of the jumps. Some of the other types of procs behave a little differently.
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Originally Posted by Dr_Ohm
Apologies for asking, as I'm sure I ought to know the answer. Do procs affect the all targets, or merely the initial target?
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Supposed to, no I don't know. That's a question for Castle. I do know it doesn't: only the initial target is affected by -recovery. All the arcing jumps seem to have energy damage and knockdown, but no -recovery.
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Originally Posted by saltyhero13
Do you know if the -recovery is supposed to propagate through all its jumps?
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it is way to late for me to fully understand all this thread, but to prevent any targets being out of range of a jump, do these mechanic make it best to hit a target in the middle of a spawn or near one side? Or does it not matter?
It sounds like aim in the middle and watch the ripples, but my eyes only stay open long enough to read 3 words at a time ...
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Originally Posted by Aggelakis
PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"
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fifteen foot range|
Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
it is way to late for me to fully understand all this thread, but to prevent any targets being out of range of a jump, do these mechanic make it best to hit a target in the middle of a spawn or near one side? Or does it not matter?
It sounds like aim in the middle and watch the ripples, but my eyes only stay open long enough to read 3 words at a time ... |
tells me that
it not matter
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
This thread is mind boggling
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Originally Posted by Murdok
Your mom's real name is Castle.
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Originally Posted by PrincessDarkstar
it is way to late for me to fully understand all this thread, but to prevent any targets being out of range of a jump, do these mechanic make it best to hit a target in the middle of a spawn or near one side? Or does it not matter?
It sounds like aim in the middle and watch the ripples, but my eyes only stay open long enough to read 3 words at a time ... |
Assuming I now understand how this mechanic works: it depends.
Firstly you should always aim for an enemy you have a good chance of hitting. If you miss the first target the whole power fails.
Secondly, hitting a target near the middle may or may not have the effect you want. The bolts start out very accurate and get less so as they branch out. On the other hand if an early chain misses, you miss out on an additional 6 or 7 chains automatically. Based on all of this I would think you'd want to aim the first shot at an enemy with low-ish defense surrounded by about 4 foes.
But really, ideally, you'd be best off just keeping the whole pack as tightly within a 15ft radius as possible for maximal odds.
(Note that with Synaptic Overload the other concern is that the power propagates so slowly that there is a real risk of enemies dying while the chain is active on them, so that puts additional complications on you on a team. I also had some amount of problems with people knocking the target of the chain (often the guy closest to me in the front) out of range.)
Well I am glad I gave it one slot so I can have ACC put in with endurance enhancer.
I find it to be a handy tool only... For now at 32 maybe it'll change later when I have spare slots to hand out.
So far it's been my butt save for me. I normally Static then Jolt then I immediately chain fence...so as I cast chain fence the cluster is being juggled and staying together. Also prevents them from attacking by the time my chain is done they are re-slept.
I noticed if I dont Jolt first and do fences I get shot the heck up...so its a great tool if you end up setting up the pull for team.
Also if you notice your point man who takes alpha is getting too much heat...its a great way to stop all the attacks from most mobs next to him to give him a chance to get healed up.
Great thread...glad you tested it cause I was wondering.
In other words, I hit target A. Target A fires an arc at target B 2 seconds after getting hit, and an arc at target C 4 seconds after getting hit. Target B then shoots an arc 2 seconds after it was hit, which is 6 seconds after A was hit. That arc *can* loop back and hit A, because A is now free to be hit again.
Because the arcs will tend to target the *closest* target that is still *valid* to be hit, you can get interesting looping chaining effects as jolting chain worms its way around a dense spawn of targets.
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