Heroes never miss?

Moment of Glory also gives this message, both PC versions and Paragon Protector versions.

I take it as meaning you healed back the damage so fast that it might as well have never happened.

Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.

No. You pointed fingers at EVERYONE by implying that only SOMEONE was finally responding how you wanted. Just because you didn't single anyone out doesn't mean people shouldn't take offense. It means you're trying to back peddle to cover your rear. You were "careful not to point fingers", that means you knew exactly what you were doing.

Perhaps instead of crying foul over people pointing out how horrid your initial idea is, you should put a little thought into it and try and adjust according to what blatant and obvious problems were pointed out from the get go.

I don't have a problem with people finding flaws in my ideas. Finding the flaws is part of the reason I posted it in the first place. The other part was, of course, provoking discussion that might turn into a genuinely good set of ideas.

I didn't post a laundry-list of rebuttals mostly because they were indeed valid points. If something is true, why argue against it? Likewise, I don't mind if people take offense. This is the internet, and no matter the subject someone will always be able to take offense... but it's interesting to see who takes offense, and at what.

Sometimes having a discussion is the best way to fix a bad or incomplete idea. With enough viewpoints, all problems will be found eventually.

Debuff resistances of the "Base" defense and resistance sets. Scrapper numbers.

Super Reflexes

Focused Fighting: Defense Debuff resistance of 13.84%, Confuse resistance of 103.8%

Focused Senses: Preception Debuff resistance of 60%, Defense Debuff resistance 13.84%

Agile: Defense Debuff resistance of 5.625%

Practiced Brawler: Mez Protection only.

Dodge: Defense Debuff resistance 6.92%

Quickness: Speed Slow resistance 40%

Lucky: Defense Debuff resistance 6.92%

Evasion: Defense Debuff resistance 13.84

Elude: Defense Debuff resistance 34.6%


Totals:
Defense Debuff Resistance: 95.585%
Slow Resistance: 40% (movement only)
Perception Debuff Resistance: 60%
Confuse Resistance: 103.8%


Invulnerability

Resist Physical Damage: Defense Debuff resistance 25%

Temporary Invulnerability: None.

Dull Pain: None.

Resist Elements: Resistance to Run/fly/jump/recharge debuff of 20%

Unyielding: Mez Protection only.

Resist Energy: Resistance to Recovery/Endurance debuff 25%

Invincibility: None.

Tough Hide: Resistance to defense debuff 25%

Unstoppable: None.

Totals:
Defense Debuff resistance: 50%
Slow Resistance: 20% (movement and recharge)
Recovery/Endurance resistance: 25%


These numbers are off of a PvP map. Notice that the defense based character has -no- resistance to recharge rate slows, end reduction, or recovery-killing powers. Which means that while they may hit less often, they affect the defense character more than the resistance character on a hit for hit basis.

The game is not balanced around the use of IOs, which are required for an SR character to hit the Softcap of defense to all vectors. Unless you're including teammates, in which case any discussion or argument is utterly moot due to the fluid nature of team make-up and examples running into counter-examples.

How about, instead, you look into buffing damage resistance sets instead? Though the original poster's intent wasn't balance, it was Bad**ery. He wants to feel more "Heroic" by never missing, which basically makes Defense utterly moot and in need of either a total revamp or to be removed from the game entirely, replaced by damage resistance and other mitigation forms.

Can you imagine how much outrage/nerdrage/ragequits would occur if defense were, this late in the game, nerfed so drastically? Wouldn't it be better to address the deficiencies of other sets to make them more effective?

I'd love to see, for example, giving every Control effect a damage type and linking it to both defense and resistance, rather than a strict control number, for duration resistance. Ice Character? Well your hold resistance against ice control effects will be greater than your hold resistance against psi control effects. What if we -just- key it off of damage resistances, instead? Straight point to point -addition- to the amount of mez resistance inherent in any mez protection power.

-Rachel-

Having a productive discussion requires some preparation and the right information. As pointed out, other threads have recently discussed this. You make no mention or attempt to add in points from past discussions, just another thread.

That way things like:
would have been answered.

Additionally, you post:
You know what the SCR is? Just how "simple" is it or define how much time and coding changing is for a "a bit"?
After 6+ years of this game, you want the fighting mechanics just overhauled like that?

I think you are correct, and that people shouldn't worry about being offended.

I've found Leo_G's and Umbral's inputs to be immensely productive.

Out of curiousity, why is 'just another thread' a bad thing? Is there some limited resource at play in this forum that I'm unaware of?

Then stop being deliberately offensive when people refute your idea and try making a productive discussion.

Yes. Time. People have gone over the merits and flaws of this idea already in other threads. By ignoring them, you force people to refute the base idea again or worse yet, allow you to think the idea is good by not responding. It's always best, if possible, to review previous discussions on ideas (no matter what field, be it a video game forum or a science class) before bringing them up again. The fact that two were fairly recently discussed just compounds the issue.

After careful consideration, I've decided to reject this advice. I will certainly be deliberately offensive to people that are offensive to me, although I do enjoy productive discussions as well. Thank you for your input, though.

Well I do appreciate your honesty in this regard, and I can see how you would get so easily offended.

One thing has been bugging me since this thread was started though: Where does "Heroes never miss" come from? Is that the basis of the idea (Hero class NPCs should never miss? or Heroes the players should never miss?), and if so, why the question mark? The title just doesn't make sense to me.

I force people to spend time on them? I'm sorry, I was under the impression that unless you had a red name that these forums were a voluntary activity. I certainly don't mind you ignoring my threads, feel free to do so at any time.

As I also don't have a red name, how is me thinking that an idea is good a threat to anyone? This is a rather fascinating bias.

Just a discussion I had with a team a while ago. The tank was complaining about missing minions, and how in the comic books, heroes never miss. Missing just doesn't feel 'super', really. I started thinking about it, and it has a lot of merit... why did the game get built in the first place to support missing anything but special enemies? How could it have been done better?

I know they won't change the mechanics now, that was never really an option... but perhaps a dev will read this thread, and CoH2 will make different choices? I want the idea to be easily available to a dev, on the off chance it makes a difference in the future.

It's more of a cumulative effect. "I think this idea is good. No one has argued. Someone else has posted this idea, so I show support." Wash, rinse, repeat and in theory it starts to look like there's majority support for an idea because "silence is consent".

Also, there's the fact that people should read up on ideas presented previously, especially if they've been discussed to any length. It helps to keep the idea from being repeated over and over and it moves the idea into a better starting point each time, refining it. You do want your ideas presented in the best possible light for the hopes of gaining support, right? Then in theory your best bet is to see where the discussion of the idea ended last time, improve where you can / feel it needs it, and then present that idea. As it is, you set your idea up in the worst possible light by just putting it out there like that.

Mr_Right covers the point well. You are unprepared and your OP is unrefined. Actually looking at other threads will give you the other "viewpoints" like in:
You are ignoring all those other viewpoints. So why did you bother bring up discussion and viewpoints?

If you are not going to be bothered by actually reading previous threads, then don't expect to have wonderful and delightful discussions on a poorly constucted OP.

Plus you add things like "simple" or a "bit", without defining them. 1 day of work? 2 new zones of work? Just words it seems to you.

And, there is no resource issue, but do we need another vehicle travel power, world PvP/duel, AT respec, etc. thread?

Heroes and Villains in the comics miss all the time, and whether they hit or miss is entirely dependent on what the story-teller needs them to do. Without a story-teller here to adjust things on the fly based on necessity or convenience, a mechanic needs to be worked out to sort of replicate this. The current system works, and shouldn't be overhauled, IMO.

Then get some real data with the combat logs. Look at the number of mobs slaughtered by the team and add up the total number of misses. Then start a discussion on missing minions. So what we miss once in a while, imagine all the defeated mobs players generate a day across all servers.

Well, this would have been actually been helpful in the OP. You admit that this was never really an option and for some thing in a future game? That would have changed discussion greatly.

How could I possibly know how much work it would take? I would assume it would be less than creating the whole MMO from scratch, though I could be wrong even about that. I'm not one of the devs here, I have no idea how hard their work is.

I don't read the forums that often, I prefer to actually play the game instead. I don't have the tens of thousands of posts that other people do, and I don't keep up to date on all the neat ideas here... I just posted it because it was bothering me. Poorly constructed or not, this thread did turn up some interesting ideas, so I consider it a success.

I'm aware of the numbers, I know that people notice misses a lot more than hits. I'm more concerned about the feel of the game than the actual numbers. Missing a minion, especially missing a minion after using a power like build-up, simply doesn't feel super. I'd even be happy if there were just a list of powers that removed the ceiling on the hit calculation when they were used.

For me, my rule of thumb for posting is to not state things like "simple" or such unless I know. Post how you want, but you may get called on it.

I don't have 10's of thousands of posts either, and guess what - I play the game too! Are you sure you want to play that card? Because there are plenty with high post count and also play the game.

You don't have to keep up, just use that little search thingy on the forums or possibly spend a few minutes learning about it.

Ah this tired old tactic.

Let's see, forum posters could have been posting for 6 years, 3 months, 2 weeks since go live for a total of 2298 days so far for those here since launch.

Tens of thousands would be a little over 4 per day average. Oh my, the horror.

Yes, imagine me being silly enough to equate number of posts to time spent on the forums! Ohnoes, expecting someone to understand that there's a high likelihood that someone with less than 100 posts might not really browse the forums that much! I really should know better than to have such high expectations, as SwellGuy has so deftly proven.

You brought it up...backpedaling now?

The expectation is that the OP would spend some time thinking about what they are going to post. You could have 1, 100, 1000, or 10000 posts, but you are still expected to put some effort in your posts like using the Search function. That way things like "viewpoints" as in:
will be taken into account. Especially when something like:
is posted. You want the devs to all hover around Posi's screen and go "WOW! WHAT AN AWESOME IDEA! Why didn't any of us in our collective gaming experience think of that?" Yet, you put no data (you claim to be aware of the numbers but won't post any specifics) or take into account other discussions (that whole viewpoint thingy again).
All you claim is some tank talking about missing - what? CoT? Malta? Carnies? Normal content or AE content?
Was he debuffed at the time?
Levels?
How is he slotted - TOs, DOs, SOs, HOs, IOs? 1 dam or 1 rech, 3dam/1acc/1rech/1end red, etc.? Was it unslotted brawl?

You give nothing. Yet you expect the devs to make some change to a game that doesn't even exist yet.

Yeah, you don't post a lot, but could you have like skipped one mission in the game and spent a few minutes looking up information and preparing for such a game-breaking modification in hitting mobs?