Why does Defender Psy Blast have longer range than Blaster Psi Blast?
By
Another_Fan,
Posted on: 2010-07-11 17:31 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
People will claim the set was gutted because of PvP, so I'll set that straight rightaway here.
* Will Domination was modified (damage scale reduced, I believe) because it hits pretty hard for Defenders. Actually, it's still quite good on Blasters... it's a slightly weaker tier 3 that just happens to have the same range as a tier 1 and 2 attack.
* Range reduced for balance concerns... Blasters are supposed to stay at range, but they're not supposed to be able to outrange mobs so much that survivability is trivial. If left unmodified a Psi/EM would be able to attack targets from 160 feet away just on SOs, which is longer than the range of most NPC ranged attacks.
* Psychic Scream moved to the secondary set. This change shoots the "ZOMG PVP NERFED THIS SET" argument in the foot, because it's a relatively long-animating AoE and AoEs weren't (and still aren't) useful in PvP.
Generally the range was reduced because Psi damage at that range with the Blaster damage modifier would be too good for the majority of the game where mobs don't resist Psi damage.
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Because Defenders don't get access to Boost Range.
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Range not really meant to be a defense.
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"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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Additionally, the damage was largely just shuffled around and the actual output of both versions of Psi are (or would be if available on the same AT) pretty similar in terms of single targets.
When Psi Blast was released, it would have had a potential advantage over other blast sets due to the damage type in PvP, since Psi resist is quite hard to come by for players.
Psi damage is resisted quite heavily by PvE mobs though, moreso than Fire on average.
Most zombies and robots have 50% resistance, which you won't see for many other damage types.
Moving Psi Scream from the primary to the scondary made no sense to me, since the two powersets are independent, tied only by concept. This lead to Psi Blast primary leaving you one AoE short, and taking Mental Manipulation giving you an extra AoE, hence the popularity of Fire/MM and relative scarcity of Psi Blast.
Psi Blast could have been "good single target with lots of controls" to compensate for the lack of AoE. But Will Domination got reduced damage, despite having a lower damage scalar than Tier 3s like Cosmic Burst or Power Burst on Defenders. On Blasters it got lowered to less than standard Tier 2 damage.
In short, I think the set is just poorly designed. I can see a good few disadvantages and no clear advantage to taking the set.
Most mobs don't resist or barely resist psi damage. It's just that the few who resist it are highly resistant.
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For anyone wondering how the defender version of Psi would look if it were ported directly to blasters here it is:
Mental Blast:
4 sec rech, 1.67 cast, 62.6 dam
Subdue:
6 sec rech, 1.67 cast, 82.6 dam
TK Blast:
8 sec rech, 1 sec cast, 102.6 dam
Will Dom:
14 sec rech, 1.1 sec cast, 122.6 dam
Here is what blasters got:
Psy Dart:
4 sec rech, 1 sec cast, 62.6 dam
Mental Blast:
8 sec rech, 1.67 sec cast, 102.6 dam
TK Blast:
10 sec rech, 1 sec cast, 122.6 dam
Will Dom:
20 sec rech, 1.1 sec cast, 77.6 dam
So essentially instead of a 14 second big hitter they got a 10 second big hitter. The new version is generally faster as its chain has two 1 sec cast times whereas the defender has two 1.67 cast times unless they have very high recharge to eliminate one of the slower blasts for will dom.
You get aim vs psy scream. I prefer aim and at the time people were being pretty loud about blaster sets that lacked aim. I think it is safe to put the pvp theory to bed though because if they wanted to hold Psi back they wouldn't have given it aim, which is a crucial pvp power.
Psychic Scream was something of an odd choice to replace Aim with.
Comparing to Energy Blast, one of the most standard blast sets:
Psionic Dart = Energy Bolt, KB chance replaced with -Rech
Mental Blast = Energy Blast, KB chance replaces with -Rech
TK Blast = Power Burst with faster anim, equal KB, and about 90% of the damage.
Both sets have Aim, a nuke, a snipe and a low damage mez (counting Power Push as a mez attack) and a targetted sphere AoE.
Will Domination therefore pairs up with the missing second AoE, which seems like quite a poor trade. A Mag 3 sleep for a second AoE? That seems like a decision designed to limit the set's PvE effectiveness if anything.
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Damage scale reduced to 1.32 AND recharge time increased to 20 seconds. I wouldn't call it a tier 3 when it deals less damage than a tier 2. Instead, TKB was promoted to a tier 3, Mental Blast promoted to a tier 2, and Dart added as a tier 1.| * Will Domination was modified (damage scale reduced, I believe) because it hits pretty hard for Defenders. Actually, it's still quite good on Blasters... it's a slightly weaker tier 3 that just happens to have the same range as a tier 1 and 2 attack. |
So even though WD is very much a skippable power, comparable to Bitter Freeze Ray, a WD-to-WD comparison doesn't tell the whole story, WD was skimmed off the top (and basically thrown away) to make room for Dart as a new power, and all the blasts in between were bumped up.
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| * Psychic Scream moved to the secondary set. |
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I think they kept will dom because it is a signature move in the Psi set. Making it of dubious value so that it can be checked off the list is a questionable action, but w/e.|
Originally Posted by DrMike2000
Psychic Scream was something of an odd choice to replace Aim with.
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Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
This is the major reason psi blast is weak for blasters. I still think PvP may be a secondary reason, since the range decrease from 100' to 80' doesn't make sense as a pure PvE balance based change. If it did, we'd all be slotting our single target blasts for range. Or at least some of us would. In reality, hardly anyone does.
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The only other set that can do that is archery with 2 ranges slotted AND boost range and it has no mitigation.
What's weird is that there are Blaster attacks with 100ft range. Assault Rifle's Slug (tier 2 blast) power for example. And Burst is 90ft. I would have thought at least a couple of Blaster Psy's powers would keep their signature range.
[EDIT: Nevermind, I see that was addressed. I guess the issue is they fear people hovering out of range and blasting, since 160+ft is out of range of any immobs to keep enemies in place anyway.]
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When I think of blaster primaries with "significant mez" or "significant mitigation", Psi is at the low end of the list.| significant mez/mitigation |
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| The only other set that can do that is archery with 2 ranges slotted AND boost range and it has no mitigation. |
Til that happens, I don't think range is all that. Even if range were a perfect defense, defense doesn't get the the expees and purple drops to roll in. DPS does that. And trying to blast single targets while hovering 160 feet away just isn't good DPS.
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From 80ft it is unparalleled in its supremacy. Stay with the conversation. For that matter from any range it is still one of the best options.|
Originally Posted by Rigel_Kent
When I think of blaster primaries with "significant mez" or "significant mitigation", Psi is at the low end of the list.
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To save you time continuing being incorrect, it has the following mez/mitigation powers with 80ft range
st stun
st sleep (80% chance)
st knockback (60% chance)
2x st -30% rech, 6 sec duration
The next closest is ice which has
st hold
3x st -20% rech, 6-18 sec duration
edit: none of the other sets have any mitigation with 80ft range.
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| When range abuse gets people to roll Archery blasters instead of shield scrappers, I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong. |
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You know, on second thought, I think I've been playing defenders too long. I started actually ranking "the list" and the "low end" just kept... getting... bigger. Pushing Psi further and further up the list. Turns out, I think Blaster primaries all kind of suck for mitigation, and before making the list, I may have been subconsciously (and erroneously) comparing it to defender secondaries.|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
st stun
st sleep (80% chance) st knockback (60% chance) 2x st -30% rech, 6 sec duration |
Still, I still don't feel any love for Psychic Blast's overall mitigation. Everyone skips Beanbags, and a psychic Beanbag is no different. 80% chance of mag 3 sleep is a joke, defenders only take WD for damage, and blasters lost the damage. On the other hand, the 60% knockback and 30% recharge debuffs are nice, now that you mention them. Psionic Tornado (which you should have mentioned!) has the bulk of the set's mitigation.
That said, if mitigation is so minor for all blaster primaries, is being a little bit better at mitigation all that important, when you give up things that are major, such as damage typing and AoE damage? "Unparalleled in its supremacy" at 80' mitigation may be true, but I don't see people rolling psi blasters for it, and I don't see people rolling /psi defenders for 100' mitigation, either. Just not that good, in the grand scheme of DPS versus time.
EDIT:
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| laughing at SC |
Psy Blast is the Martial Arts of blast sets
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Whoa, whoa, wait...|
Originally Posted by Frosticus
Psy Blast is the Martial Arts of blast sets
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That is decidedly NOT true!
...
Martial Arts if far and away better designed than Psy Blast for Blasters.
(Psy Blast for Defenders, however, blows it away.)
-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-
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ok. It has largely the same status effects and power arrangement, just from range. But ok.|
Originally Posted by OneWhoBinds
Whoa, whoa, wait...
That is decidedly NOT true! ... Martial Arts if far and away better designed than Psy Blast for Blasters. (Psy Blast for Defenders, however, blows it away.) |
You seem to be one of those people that thinks def psy blast is a lot better than it actually is. Or at least your description of the design progression between the sets seems to imply that.
You don't just say:
blaster psy < MA < Def Psy
you say:
blaster psy <<<<<<<<<< MA <<<<<<<< Def Psy
The first premise probably isn't true, so what does that say about your position?
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They did it to make you ask questions...and it worked..|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Not looking to start a scuffle about this, but I only recently noticed that all of the blasts in Defender Psi Blast tend to have around 100ft range (about 20 ft longer than any other blast set). That's a nice perk. Has anything ever been said about why it's missing from the Blaster version? Did it used to be believed it would be overpowered in PVP or something?
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The less range you have the more damage you should be able to do. No aim (no +dam) therefore more range. Thats my logic, not dev logic.
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I don't think dev logic was far off from that. Expanded range and radius was the explicit theme of the original defender blast set.
* Mentioned in the set description in character creation.
* 100' range on the single target non-snipe blasts, including the Tier 3 (Will Domination) and the targeted AoE (Psionic Tornado) and the beanbag (Scramble Thoughts).
* 175' range on the snipe (Psionic Lance), longer than any other snipe except Moonbeam (whose 175' range I suspect may itself be a copy-paste error from Psionic Lance).
* 60' 30 degree cone (Psychic Scream), longer than Fire/Ice Breath, Tenebrous Tentacles, wider than Night Fall.
* 20' radius targeted AoE (Psionic Tornado), larger than Fire Ball, Ball Lightning, etc.
I think this theme was given to the set because of its lack of other consistent themes (damage type doesn't count)... it had a lot of -recharge, but only on 5 out of the 9 enemy targeted attacks. Compare to, say, Radiation Blast, that had -defense on 8 out of 8 attacks, Electric Blast with -end and -recovery on 8 out of 8, Energy Blast with knockback on 8 out of 8, Dark Blast with -tohit on 8 out of 9.
So this leaves the blaster version of the set without a consistent theme. Only 5 out of 8 attacks have -recharge. Standard 150' on the snipe, standard 80' on the other single target stuff and on Psionic Tornado, but at least blasters got to keep Tornado's 20' radius.
Here's hoping Corruptors get the Defender version. The score so far:
Extra range theme: Defenders (I0), Controllers (APP) (I3), Dominators (I6)
No extra range theme: Widows (I12), Blasters (I12)
I still think it was gutted for pvp reasons. The range change makes no sense what so ever in pve since by the time you would have leveled to get boost range most mobs are gonna still out range you with that still. I know for a fact nemesis snipers easily do this. The damage got gutted for pvp reasons which doesnt make sense either because they then turn around and give everyone pvp resistance to like all the damage types in some form of either resists or defense. So I think all the pre-nerfs to psi need to be rolled back or the damage bumped up alot. Psi scream should have stayed in the and the snipe removed since all of the attacks would have been closer to sniper range anyways if the range was restored.
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Certainly an interesting theory considering the st damage was actually increased for the blaster version.|
Originally Posted by EvilRyu
I still think it was gutted for pvp reasons. The range change makes no sense what so ever in pve since by the time you would have leveled to get boost range most mobs are gonna still out range you with that still. I know for a fact nemesis snipers easily do this. The damage got gutted for pvp reasons which doesnt make sense either because they then turn around and give everyone pvp resistance to like all the damage types in some form of either resists or defense. So I think all the pre-nerfs to psi need to be rolled back or the damage bumped up alot. Psi scream should have stayed in the and the snipe removed since all of the attacks would have been closer to sniper range anyways if the range was restored.
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Yes snipers out range player powers, but 160ft blasts out range normal npc attacks (160ft would be if psy had retained 100ft+boostrange).
I agree with regard to psy scream, but the devs love their useless snipes for w/e reason.
Although I still think the range was reduced for PvP reasons, I admit the fact that it wasn't retroactively reduced for doms and defenders is hard to explain with that theory. 
Maybe just whoever was proliferating in Issue 12 didn't like range?
Also, show me a blaster who's killing stuff from 160' away, I'll show you a character whose DPS and XP rate are a teensy, tiny, insignificant fraction of what Fire/Kins and Elec/Shields do up-close in equal safety.
Not looking to start a scuffle about this, but I only recently noticed that all of the blasts in Defender Psi Blast tend to have around 100ft range (about 20 ft longer than any other blast set). That's a nice perk. Has anything ever been said about why it's missing from the Blaster version? Did it used to be believed it would be overpowered in PVP or something?