Kinetic Melee for which ATs?
By
Angelic_EU,
Posted on: 2010-07-03 05:13 in Archetypes and Powers General Discussion
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Anyone that could definitively tell you about which AT can get the most out of what Kinetic Melee provides would be unable to because the set is still in closed beta.
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Originally Posted by Angelic_EU
But just curious as to which ATs will make the most of KM?
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From what Castle told us about Power Siphon, I'd wager Brutes will be able to capitalize best on Kinetic Melee. A stacking damage buff + Fury = SWEET
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Actually, Brutes use +dam mechanisms the absolute worst of all ATs specifically because of Fury. Brutes dilute all +dam they recieve because they're already bringing so much +dam to bear. Any power that provides a large amount of +dam is better for other ATs than it is for Brutes, unless that +dam is going to put the other ATs at or above their damage cap (at which point it becomes a question of one AT getting benefits while the other doesn't).
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Originally Posted by Timeshadow
From what Castle told us about Power Siphon, I'd wager Brutes will be able to capitalize best on Kinetic Melee. A stacking damage buff + Fury = SWEET
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I disagree, there is no dilution of +damage. Even at 100% fury, what ever buff KM has will be the same amount as at 0% fury. Unless they hit their cap +damage will always increase their damage the same amount.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Actually, Brutes use +dam mechanisms the absolute worst of all ATs specifically because of Fury. Brutes dilute all +dam they recieve because they're already bringing so much +dam to bear. Any power that provides a large amount of +dam is better for other ATs than it is for Brutes, unless that +dam is going to put the other ATs at or above their damage cap (at which point it becomes a question of one AT getting benefits while the other doesn't).
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The reason why brutes will get less from a +damage buff is they have a lower base damage to buff. So scrappers and stalkers would get more from a +damage buff, then brutes, and finally tanks.
Dirges
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A stacking damage buff plus the damage buff from Against All Odds might be nice, too (if Kinetic Melee works with Shield Defense).
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Originally Posted by Timeshadow
From what Castle told us about Power Siphon, I'd wager Brutes will be able to capitalize best on Kinetic Melee. A stacking damage buff + Fury = SWEET
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Goodbye may seem forever
Farewell is like the end
But in my heart's the memory
And there you'll always be
-- The Fox and the Hound
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+Dam dilution demonstrated mathematically:|
Originally Posted by Dirges
I disagree, there is no dilution of +damage. Even at 100% fury, what ever buff KM has will be the same amount as at 0% fury. Unless they hit their cap +damage will always increase their damage the same amount.
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Scrapper: 95% +dam from base slotting; 100% +dam from a buff; the 100% +dam buff equates to a 51.3% increase in damage output.
Brute: 95% +dam from base slotting; 100% +dam from Fury; 100% +dam buff equates to a 33.9% increase in damage output.
Because Brutes have large amounts of natural +dam that they rely upon to deal damage, they suffer from +dam dilution. Whereas every other AT uses +dam in a method exactly like Scrappers, Brutes suffer from dilution because they're already getting large amount of +dam from their inherent.
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| The reason why brutes will get less from a +damage buff is they have a lower base damage to buff. So scrappers and stalkers would get more from a +damage buff, then brutes, and finally tanks. |
Even more amusing, you have to remember that Brutes share the same melee buff dmg attribute as Tankers and Stalkers: .1. Scrappers have a .125 melee buff dmg attribute.
If you really want to go about creating tiers of usefulness, Scrappers are at the top because they have a high base damage scalar and the best melee buff dmg attribute, Stalkers are next because they have a higher base damage scalar, followed by Tankers for the same reason, and Brutes are last because they have the worst damage scalar and the same low melee buff dmg attribute.
No matter how you stack it, Brutes get the least out of any +dam contribution mechanism than any other class in the game. This is why Shield Brutes are actually the least overpowered of the Shield ATs and Scrappers are, quite easily, the most broken.
Yes, I was actually thinking of a KM/SD brute or a KM/SR stalker, depending on whether the stalker version of KM has Siphon Power or BU.
Also, I am debating as to which one can do more damage: KM/SR brute, KM/SR scrapper or KM/SR stalker. Or if I am to choose brute, which one will do better: /SD or /SR...
Any suggestion?
Based on what we've heard of the power, Scrappers will probably get the most out of it. Brutes... well, it kinda depends on other factors. On a lot of my Brutes, I often covet the +To Hit in the build up powers more than the +Dam... if Power Siphon has a +To Hit component, then Brutes will give it plenty of love, even if the +Dam is just gravy.
Tanks are sure to like it, but it's unlikely to be anything remarkable there.
Stalkers... based on the description given, Stalkers will HATE this power. Its Defiance like description implies that it will encourages a 'Stand and Scrap' approach, which Stalkers are not particularly suited for. It will be hard-to-impossible to leverage Power Siphon into the situation that a Stalker most wants to use it in - the single big hit of their Assassin Attack from out of Hide. As such, I'm hoping the Devs have the foresight to replace the Stalker's version of Kinetic Melee with a regular Build Up power.
-This Space Intentionally Left Blank.-
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First of all, Stalkers should have no problem with a 'stand and scrap' approach...in fact, that's exactly what the AT is built to do. I mean, they have an armor secondary...they have melee attacks...what else would they do!? |
Originally Posted by OneWhoBinds
Stalkers... based on the description given, Stalkers will HATE this power. Its Defiance like description implies that it will encourages a 'Stand and Scrap' approach, which Stalkers are not particularly suited for. It will be hard-to-impossible to leverage Power Siphon into the situation that a Stalker most wants to use it in - the single big hit of their Assassin Attack from out of Hide. As such, I'm hoping the Devs have the foresight to replace the Stalker's version of Kinetic Melee with a regular Build Up power.
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Secondly, yes, I'm nearly 95% sure the devs will replace any damage buff variant with Build up for Stalkers. They did it for Claws, Dual Blades and Dark Melee because it didn't mesh with a self contained burst. That's not he cornerstone of the set tho. It's the secondary effect of the set that will really make the set stand out.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
First of all, Stalkers should have no problem with a 'stand and scrap' approach...in fact, that's exactly what the AT is built to do. I mean, they have an armor secondary...they have melee attacks...what else would they do!?
Secondly, yes, I'm nearly 95% sure the devs will replace any damage buff variant with Build up for Stalkers. They did it for Claws, Dual Blades and Dark Melee because it didn't mesh with a self contained burst. That's not he cornerstone of the set tho. It's the secondary effect of the set that will really make the set stand out. |
As far as I know, that Siphon Power comes with a (stackable?) -damage debuff of sort. Replacing it with BU in the stalker version, seems to be weakening the stalker version a bit.
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I'm hoping the Devs don't replace it for freaking once. Stalkers are not gimped Blaster wannabes with Tank-like damage outside of AS. Stalkers can mostly go toe-to-toe with Scrappers on the front lines of a team. I would really like to see at least one set that's not ported under the assumption that 'Stalkers should hit and run' (or at least 'it's all about AS'). Sure, keeping it in would hurt the spike damage potential of Stalkers*, but it would help the sustained DPS of Stalkers.|
Originally Posted by OneWhoBinds
As such, I'm hoping the Devs have the foresight to replace the Stalker's version of Kinetic Melee with a regular Build Up power.
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As an alternative, they could give it the Night Widow treatment and give them both Power Siphon and Build Up, but make them mutually exclusive, although that'd likely result in calls to do the same for Claws, Dual Blades, and Dark Melee.
*If you lead with a different attack then use Power Siphon, then Placate, and then AS... you could still pull off a higher spiked Assassin Strike assuming PS doesn't draw too much aggro.
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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I'll probably try KM on a Stalker since I'm currently playing with one. I go through different phases and right now I'm in a Stalker one. I've gone for almost 4 years of playing without ever giving one a serious try, now I'm addicted to Assasin's Strike. I'm always curious about what AS is going to look like from different sets. KM is no exeption. I'll at least play one to level 6 to see what AS looks like.
@Joshua.
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Just to point out in both cases you have an increase 295%, you see + damage is additive. Also you should of put 200% from fury to get the number you wanted. Then again you are just manipulating numbers to get what you want. Here is an example, a brute teams with a couple of /kin, at 50% fury the brute hits their damage cap. Now look at how weak fury is, about 12% of the damage, why not get rid of fury because it is so weak. |
Originally Posted by Umbral
+Dam dilution demonstrated mathematically:
Scrapper: 95% +dam from base slotting; 100% +dam from a buff; the 100% +dam buff equates to a 51.3% increase in damage output. Brute: 95% +dam from base slotting; 100% +dam from Fury; 100% +dam buff equates to a 33.9% increase in damage output. Because Brutes have large amounts of natural +dam that they rely upon to deal damage, they suffer from +dam dilution. Whereas every other AT uses +dam in a method exactly like Scrappers, Brutes suffer from dilution because they're already getting large amount of +dam from their inherent. Actually, if you want to say that it's based off of base damage, then Brutes are still last. Check it. Brutes have a base damage scalar of .75. Scrappers have a base damage scalar of 1.125. Stalkers have a base damage scalar of 1.0. Tankers have a base damage scalar of .8. Brutes are still at the bottom of the heap for +dam contribution from that perspective. Even more amusing, you have to remember that Brutes share the same melee buff dmg attribute as Tankers and Stalkers: .1. Scrappers have a .125 melee buff dmg attribute. If you really want to go about creating tiers of usefulness, Scrappers are at the top because they have a high base damage scalar and the best melee buff dmg attribute, Stalkers are next because they have a higher base damage scalar, followed by Tankers for the same reason, and Brutes are last because they have the worst damage scalar and the same low melee buff dmg attribute. No matter how you stack it, Brutes get the least out of any +dam contribution mechanism than any other class in the game. This is why Shield Brutes are actually the least overpowered of the Shield ATs and Scrappers are, quite easily, the most broken. |
You are also wrong about your dilution only effecting brutes, your own example contradicts your point. Your looking at one buffs numbers compared to every other buffs numbers. If a scrapper has 3 100% damage buffs, that means each buff is only 25% of the whole. In the end though what matters is the final number, and that is why I say +damage is additive, it is the same number until you hit the cap. If you have an attack that does 100 damage, slot it for 95% damage and have a 100% damage buff it will do 295 damage. If you add another 100% damage buff it goes to 395. The number adds up, now where do to numbers dilute.
For some reason I was thinking tankers and brutes base damage mods were reversed, I stand corrected. Though it just changes the order of who gets the most out of +damage before the cap. The main point still stands.
Dirges
Dirges, let's say a brute and a scrapper both use an attack that deals 200 dmg. Then imagine you give a 50% dmg bonus to both.
Now imagine the brute had a 200% Fury to factor in, and both got a 100% dmg boost from slotting IOs.
Before the bonus they just deal 200 dmg each.
After the exact same 50% bonus is applied to both, the brute will deal 225 dmg, the scrapper will deal 250 dmg.
The brute got less benefit from the bonus, because its base damage to which it's applied is lower. In the same way brutes get less benefit from powers like Rage, Build up, Against all Odds... etc, than Tankers or Scrappers. It does not mean that they're not useful for them of course 
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The question is not whether it's additive. The question is whether Brutes suffer from +dam dilution. They do, in fact, because +dam dilutes itself but Brutes are the only melee AT we're discussing that uses a native +dam mechanism to accomplish its "normal" damage. Because Brutes start off with +dam, they dilute any +dam they get otherwise, granting comparatively lower contribution from any +dam they receive..|
Originally Posted by Dirges
Just to point out in both cases you have an increase 295%, you see + damage is additive.
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| Also you should of put 200% from fury to get the number you wanted. Then again you are just manipulating numbers to get what you want. Here is an example, a brute teams with a couple of /kin, at 50% fury the brute hits their damage cap. Now look at how weak fury is, about 12% of the damage, why not get rid of fury because it is so weak. |
1.0 (base damage) + .95 (enhancement) + 1.0 (50% Fury) = 2.95 pre +dam
1.0 (base damage) + .95 (enhancement) + 1.0 (50% Fury) + 1.0 (+dam buff) = 3.95 with +dam
3.95 / 2.95 = 1.339 = 33.9% better damage output
If you're going to challenge my math, make sure you at least know whether I'm wrong or not.
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| The number adds up, now where do to numbers dilute. |
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| The main point still stands. |
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I have been saying the bolded part, it has nothing to do diluting damage. The difference is about brutes lower base.
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Originally Posted by Ehina
Dirges, let's say a brute and a scrapper both use an attack that deals 200 dmg. Then imagine you give a 50% dmg bonus to both.
Now imagine the brute had a 200% Fury to factor in, and both got a 100% dmg boost from slotting IOs. Before the bonus they just deal 200 dmg each. After the exact same 50% bonus is applied to both, the brute will deal 225 dmg, the scrapper will deal 250 dmg. The brute got less benefit from the bonus, because its base damage to which it's applied is lower. In the same way brutes get less benefit from powers like Rage, Build up, Against all Odds... etc, than Tankers or Scrappers. It does not mean that they're not useful for them of course |
Dirges
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Mabe it was the way you worded it, I misunderstood.|
Originally Posted by Umbral
The question is not whether it's additive. The question is whether Brutes suffer from +dam dilution. They do, in fact, because +dam dilutes itself but Brutes are the only melee AT we're discussing that uses a native +dam mechanism to accomplish its "normal" damage. Because Brutes start off with +dam, they dilute any +dam they get otherwise, granting comparatively lower contribution from any +dam they receive..
I did my math correctly. I was not assuming 100% Fury, I was assuming 100% +dam from Fury (i.e. 50% Fury). Even with that, the numbers are correct for 50% Fury (100% +dam): 1.0 (base damage) + .95 (enhancement) + 1.0 (50% Fury) = 2.95 pre +dam 1.0 (base damage) + .95 (enhancement) + 1.0 (50% Fury) + 1.0 (+dam buff) = 3.95 with +dam 3.95 / 2.95 = 1.339 = 33.9% better damage output If you're going to challenge my math, make sure you at least know whether I'm wrong or not. |
Scrapper: 95% +dam from base slotting; 100% +dam from a buff; the 100% +dam buff equates to a 51.3% increase in damage output.
Brute: 95% +dam from base slotting; 100% +dam from Fury; 100% +dam buff equates to a 33.9% increase in damage output.
For scrappers you only gave one buff, and brutes two, but you worded both almost exactly the same, so I put my numbers in wrong, I apologize.
For the rest we will never agree, I still see no weakening or decreased value for + damage buffs. I see no decrease in the returns. I get 95% from slotting, 100% from fury, 50% from another buff, it is all added to base damage base damage.
Dirges
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Sorry I did not read you correctly the first time. I see now that your posts were more about the term 'dillution' being appropriate or not, than a matter of understanding the game mechanics. My mistake.
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Originally Posted by Dirges
I have been saying the bolded part, it has nothing to do diluting damage. The difference is about brutes lower base.
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This is the part you're not understanding Dirges, and it's not a matter of agree/disagree, it just is. Comparative or proportional or relative. One of those words. +Dam sucks on Brutes, unless you can get an extremely high amount, and no Brute can on their own. This is not a slight to Brutes, they get other things Scrappers don't.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
better comparative contributions
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Well, on my few stalkers I actually try not to stand and scrap if there's more then 2 or 3 enemies left after the AS. The reason is my low health. Sure I get defenses, but that wont mean squat if I die in a couple hits. /Regen is commonly considered the strongest secondary, or was anyway. And yet for stalkers that is rather meh. Getting 30% of your health back quickly isn't as impressive when you have one of the lowest health totals.
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Originally Posted by Leo_G
First of all, Stalkers should have no problem with a 'stand and scrap' approach...in fact, that's exactly what the AT is built to do. I mean, they have an armor secondary...they have melee attacks...what else would they do!?
Secondly, yes, I'm nearly 95% sure the devs will replace any damage buff variant with Build up for Stalkers. They did it for Claws, Dual Blades and Dark Melee because it didn't mesh with a self contained burst. That's not he cornerstone of the set tho. It's the secondary effect of the set that will really make the set stand out. |
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Regen sucks vs burst damage. Low HP sucks vs burst damage. See where I'm going with this? Stalkers have a different dynamic than Scrappers when it comes to regen, so assuming the sets work exactly the same will lead to pain |
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
/Regen is commonly considered the strongest secondary, or was anyway.
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Stalkers work really well with the Defense based sets (like SR and Ninjitsu). Stalkers also have fairly good base HP, and are fairly survivable in melee (yes, even Regen... my first character was a regen stalker
)
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Originally Posted by ShadowNate
;_; ?!?! What the heck is wrong with you, my god, I have never been so confused in my life!
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I know, I first made a EM/Regen stalker. Deleted it around level 15 cause I was bored of the class, and had found masterminds.
"The danger is not that a particular class is unfit to govern. Every class is unfit to govern." Lord Acton
Madam Enigma's History
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Lol, 2 or 3 enemies left after an AS?|
Originally Posted by Madam_Enigma
Well, on my few stalkers I actually try not to stand and scrap if there's more then 2 or 3 enemies left after the AS. The reason is my low health. Sure I get defenses, but that wont mean squat if I die in a couple hits. /Regen is commonly considered the strongest secondary, or was anyway. And yet for stalkers that is rather meh. Getting 30% of your health back quickly isn't as impressive when you have one of the lowest health totals.
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Placate one, crit the other then take it out = 1 or 0 enemies attacking you for the next 10+ seconds. From there, you can either mez the last (if being attacked) or just scrap. If only the placated foe remains you can even stand there and let hide come back to AS again. Even if there's more than that, most likely some will be shaking in their boots after the first attack, giving you a window to thin them down in your BU window.
Seriously, people. Stalkers aren't rocket surgery. Just takes a bit of planning before you click that first attacks (you even have some time to think *while* the first attack is going off
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This is pure speculation, based on in-game information about [Kinetic Strike], but I suspect Kinetic Melee will be nicest for Scrappers, also nice for Tankers, not so hot for Stalkers (except the ones that solo or play like Scrappers), and a complete waste of a set for Brutes.
Rationale:
#1) Scrappers have the highest base damage multiplier and the highest self damage buff multiplier.
#2) Tankers are likeliest to be in longer fights solo, so have more time to accrue benefits from a Fury-like mechanic.
#3) Stalkers are least likely to be wanting to build up a Fury-like mechanic prior to landing their big damage attack, Assassin's Strike, since, in team play, delaying big burst damage misses out on the main benefit of burst damage, front loading. Solo or scrappy stalkers have more leeway to play with the Fury angle, but it'll still be second fiddle to hide/placate/crit/AS mechanics.
#4) Brutes are the ones already have a better Fury-like mechanic, damage buffs add, not multiply, and Brutes have the lowest base damage multiplier to add to. Also, I predict long, flashy animations, exactly the kind Brutes hate. ("Why should I use a slow Kinetic Melee punch when I can get just as much of a buff a lot faster from [Brawl]?")
I know the info on Kinetic Melee still limited. But just curious as to which ATs will make the most of KM?
I know that KM gets a Siphon Power of sort. But how about the stalker version of it?