City of Heroes: Live Forum Archive

MM Bot/Traps build review

Deacon_NA

By Deacon_NA,
Posted on: 2010-06-17 21:59 in Masterminds

 

Posted

Quote:
so if you want agro for yourself you just didn't understand the mechanics of /traps.
And you don't understand the mechanics of bodyguard mode. No really, you don't.

Global = Hedgefund (or some derivation thereof)

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by kalashnikow View Post
for that are patron powers, at least they are either AEs or do some mitigation and worth of sloting too.
Except the level 40+ game is going to be very far away, especially for someone who is still just starting out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kalashnikow View Post
..... which will cripple the build in total. why bother with weak useless attacks that just eat your endurance?
Eh, that's not the only reason you should take stam. Even when I go without MM attacks on a build I still take stam as it's damn convenient. Anyway I thought everyone has learned from DS that those "weak useless attacks" aren't so bad when you're a damage multiplier, which is what traps is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kalashnikow View Post
VERY bad decision. that they most versatile skill of all traps. they mitigate damage, block doorway, deliver huge amount of damage over time, especially to hard targets cose they autohit. they basically godly. and which wonders they do if there 2 patches of them laying down nearly permanent....
You'll be hard-pressed to justify 5 slots just to frankenslot caltrops.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kalashnikow View Post
duration need an enlargement, you will be happy for every second of free breathing you gain, your team too. and it also the only defense you have should the mobs break through your shield in to melee. complete hold set is also something very handy.
If the difference of what... the less than 6 seconds of additional hold time 3 hold SOs is going to give you is a matter or life or death for you and your team, then something has gone terribly wrong.

A Penny For Your Thoughts #348691 <- Dev's Choice'd by Dr. Aeon!
Submit your MA arc for review & my arcs thread

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tangler View Post
Eh, that's not the only reason you should take stam. Even when I go without MM attacks on a build I still take stam as it's damn convenient. Anyway I thought everyone has learned from DS that those "weak useless attacks" aren't so bad when you're a damage multiplier, which is what traps is.
One problem: Demon Summoning's attacks mitigate and are a damage multiplier, so pointing at them and saying, "Hey, MM attacks are good!" is like pointing at Sonic Blast on a Blaster and going, "Hey, Blasters can de-buff really good!". This isn't to say some Mastermind attacks aren't good; Mercs, Robotics, and DS get decent attacks that also mitigate. However, Ninjas' ranged attacks are simply terrible, by comparison.

 

Posted

This thread has devolved quite a bit. Lets keep it simple for the OP. No talk about tactics or IO slotting. He's not at that point yet.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by FitzSimmons View Post
This thread has devolved quite a bit. Lets keep it simple for the OP. No talk about tactics or IO slotting. He's not at that point yet.
I don't believe in evolution, so the thread is, "Intelligent Degradation".

Though I do agree.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by kalashnikow View Post
1. who cares, tankermind is an extreme build along with petless MM. they are not really worth it, especially for newbie player.
why do i have to tank if i don't need to tank at all? that's what /traps set is for, mitigating threat, not withstand it. for that are /force fields, which are not a subject of this discussion.

2. no, you don't. what you want is to prevent agro, to prevent damage.
i remember me playing winter event 1 year ago with my merc/traps mm, we were in team, i was sidekicked 10 levels above me, we were fighting some snow bosses. during the fight some ppl leaved/dropped include my boss, therefore most ppl died due to overlevel, i was the last one who stands alive. the next 5-10 minutes i was pounding a boss that was 10-13 levels ABOVE me and killed him. how? caltrops spam, ive blocked junction with it and let my minions slowly tear him apart. 5 ppl were staying dead and didn't went to medics just to see that action of me.
so if you want agro for yourself you just didn't understand the mechanics of /traps.

I will just address those 2 quotes

1. Tankermind is not an extreme build. My build is cheap and doable. Petless I am working on so I will let you know. But I will be honest, I might level to 50 regular way and use the secondary build as pet-less type build. That is cheating as I didn't level the hard way. I do have a petless toon to see how it works. I will probably keep at it to see where the issues are and to keep it fair.

2. I have a bit of an issue with this story. What level where you ? Did you have IO's ? The DPS output of a mob 10 to 13 levels higher then you can pretty much one shot your minions. All mobs have a Ranged attack or a way to get into Melee combat. Even Rikti that have no range combat can TP in and out of Melee Range.

Caltrops will make mobs run but they do turn around and fight even if at range.

So I have to call Tall Tale on this one until you give a bit more facts on this.

What level where you..
What level was your Team Lead.
Did you have IOs , SOs , DOs slotted ?
What level is your Merc Traps now ?

The normal game mechanics just make this impossible. Otherwise you would be doing this all the time and so would everyone else.

As Delta_Strider mentioned unless it was some odd moment in time in which the mob got stuck or something crazy which I have seen happen with AVs as well. Then it wasn't really Merc Trap skill or Player skill. It was a Glitch which makes your point moot really.

1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by FitzSimmons View Post
This thread has devolved quite a bit. Lets keep it simple for the OP. No talk about tactics or IO slotting. He's not at that point yet.
Well he is using Mids.

If your just going to level and use Training then DOs and then SOs. Then just slot powers that you see a weakness in.

Is Triage Beacon or Repair too slow ? Slot a recharge. Get hasten.

I don't think you can teach someone how to play the game persay. There is only so much you can do with SOs.

Here is my advice then.

Single Origins (from now on called SO ) are your goal. So Slot your powers with Single Origins enhancements in mind.

Slot a power until you see little results from slotting that type of SO. Slot 2 damage and see what 3 will give you. If you only see a few percentage or tenths of a percent ,then don't slot it.

The usual rule of thumb is 3 SOs of a similar type. More then that and you will get Diminished returns. So pets will be slotted 3 damage, 3 accuracy. Your attacks similar, though you might want to put some endurance reductions in because endurance can be an issues for Masterminds.

Beyond that there isn't much to do unless you jump into Inventions.

Make sure any time you see someone asking to do a respec you jump on it, because you will probably need many. More then what you have as a new player. Having 3 on hand should be your goal.

Reality there is a night and day difference between SOs and set bonus Inventions and even Regular Inventions and Set bonus Inventions. The game is much more enjoyable once you get the concepts of Defense Cap and what set bonuses inventions are for.

Nutshell you cannot put up a blank Mids build and then ask what we think. Think about what ? Are IOs going in there.. Are SOs, DOs Training going in there ?

5 slotting Caltrops with slow or recharge might be too much. But if he is putting IOs in there, then we might be looking at something good.

Respecing is not something that comes along every day. Granted you can do it with 4 players if 2 are just doing it for Merits. But otherwise you might need a full group depending on how borked peoples builds are.

End result the OP is thinking ahead. So he might as well think all the way ahead. Not just half way. Its one build.. No respecs or maybe 1 at most and he / she is done.

Instead of in Phase One of the build I will level from 10 to 25 with this build. At level 25 I will do a respec and work with this build in Phase Two up to level 35 and then do another respec. Then I will go into Phase Three from 35 to 45 and then perform another respec and then finally I will go into my final Phase Four and level to 50 with this build. Unless he is still in SOs, which means he will have a Phase Five when he picks up his IOs and respecs one final time into his IO stage.

Or look at Phase 5 and build for that. People are not gonna notice how much damage you do. They will notice how much you die or how much they need to heal you.

No amount of planning with SOs is going to make that much of a difference. Triage Beacon is doing 98 for heals instead of 107. Pets are doing 50 points of damage instead of 62.

No one will notice anything in between.

1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta_Strider View Post
One problem: Demon Summoning's attacks mitigate and are a damage multiplier, so pointing at them and saying, "Hey, MM attacks are good!" is like pointing at Sonic Blast on a Blaster and going, "Hey, Blasters can de-buff really good!". This isn't to say some Mastermind attacks aren't good; Mercs, Robotics, and DS get decent attacks that also mitigate. However, Ninjas' ranged attacks are simply terrible, by comparison.
Huh? I'm saying MM attacks are decent when you have a way to multiply that damage, which traps does in the form of acid mortar. DS attacks just make that more readily apparent.

A Penny For Your Thoughts #348691 <- Dev's Choice'd by Dr. Aeon!
Submit your MA arc for review & my arcs thread

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta_Strider View Post
I find this part of the story outrageous. So one event that probably couldn't occur again in the game where you used geometry and/or critter "Avoidance" to solo an enemy 10 levels over your own over the course of 5-10 minutes is proof that Traps isn't about the aggro being on you?
one event can be a good example of how some one can use his tools to overcome hardness. and a good example of game mechanics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta_Strider View Post
You know what I can because the Aggro's focused on me?
  • 1) Kill an AV/Hero(s) (in probably less time than your story quoted taking an enemy on through 10 levels of Purple Patch; unless it was like, three Posi's)
  • 2) Halt an ambush
  • 5- I mean, 3) Take an alpha strike
1) all AVs i've killed myself died without me taking agro. is it odd for you? i guess so.
2) i don care bout them, they never reach me in first place, because of caltrops, you know.
3) ... and die violently due to own ....(put yourself appropriate word you like). for alpha strike are seeker drones, they meant to be alpha soaker.

looks like you didn't understand playstyle of /traps.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta_Strider View Post
One is solid. The AV typically targets one of the Henchmen(they deal more DPS than you typically and have higher threat generation) and fires one or more AoEs, which is typically a solid 1/3 shot at killing a henchmen.
wrong. AV typically want to go in to melee, steps in to caltrops and run away. if not AV will be severely slowed by them and/or tackled by web grenade.
besides if you draw agro for yourself you probably will die with the same AoE blast along with your minions, traps are not about holding damage, but about preventing/avoiding damage.
if you want hold agro use /forcefields. period.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta_Strider View Post
Two is half-and-half. While you can control Ambushes to a certain extent with Caltrops and a doorway, if they're in a position where caltrops can't work and/or some other condition, nothing can get their attention quite like Provoke. This is also something more suited to a group's benefit, such as the ITF.
wrong. with 2 recharge and haste you should be able to have 2 caltrops patches nearly permanent.
getting attention of the mobs results in premature own death.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta_Strider View Post
Three is solid. Most people are quick to jump to the conclusion that Traps doesn't need to take an alpha because it has Seeker Drones, and I'm here to give a resounding "Wrong".
man, you seems like in wrong world. seeker drones ARE alpha eater. no offense, but learn to play. really.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Delta_Strider View Post
Also: Tankermind isn't an, "extreme" build. Any Mastermind can take Provoke and do a much better job taking hits than any one Henchmen,
who cares about 1 dead minion? i can resummon them.
but who will resummon me if i am dead?
the only reason of provoke on mm is PvP because everyone knows that without his minions mm is teeth-less.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Deacon_NA View Post
And you don't understand the mechanics of bodyguard mode. No really, you don't.
ha - ha. bodyguard mode is just a insurance, not a workhorse. mm is not a brute to hold out the damage, especially regeneration of the beacon is not quite the same like regeneration of willpower skillset.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tangler View Post
Except the level 40+ game is going to be very far away, especially for someone who is still just starting out.
so what? the faster newbie learns to play mm the better it will be.
there absolutely no reason to take personal attack powers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tangler View Post
Eh, that's not the only reason you should take stam. Even when I go without MM attacks on a build I still take stam as it's damn convenient. Anyway I thought everyone has learned from DS that those "weak useless attacks" aren't so bad when you're a damage multiplier, which is what traps is.
i think i pointed out clearly that stamina is a "must" anyway, didn't i?
of course they are weak and useless in comparison to tactics for example. more damage for all and more hit for all are much better investment for the endurance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tangler View Post
You'll be hard-pressed to justify 5 slots just to frankenslot caltrops.
what a wonder, mine caltrops are 6 slotted. how did i found free slots..... oh wait, i didn't wasted them on trash like personal attacks, did i?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tangler View Post
If the difference of what... the less than 6 seconds of additional hold time 3 hold SOs is going to give you is a matter or life or death for you and your team, then something has gone terribly wrong.
of course its a difference, never done mothership raid? every second there can and will be counted toward your team.
besides complete IO set is also a reason enough.

[/QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by plainguy View Post
I will just address those 2 quotes
1. Tankermind is not an extreme build. My build is cheap and doable. Petless I am working on so I will let you know. But I will be honest, I might level to 50 regular way and use the secondary build as pet-less type build. That is cheating as I didn't level the hard way. I do have a petless toon to see how it works. I will probably keep at it to see where the issues are and to keep it fair.
let me put it that way, i've played so far around 10 different MMs. not a single moment i felt a need for provoke or tankerminding. and none of them has used anything more valuable then standard IO.
if you want to be petless - play corruptor, if you want to be a tank play a brute.
just the fact you can make some odd skill combination due to allowed game rules means that you will be good with it. if the people give you recommendations it means they taking their time in intention to spare your time on pointless errors.
Quote:
Originally Posted by plainguy View Post
2. I have a bit of an issue with this story. What level where you ? Did you have IO's ? The DPS output of a mob 10 to 13 levels higher then you can pretty much one shot your minions. All mobs have a Ranged attack or a way to get into Melee combat. Even Rikti that have no range combat can TP in and out of Melee Range.
i don't remember exactly the levels. i use mostly standard IO, no sets what ever. i don't like to farm for weeks. DPS output of such mob would have killed me, not only my minions. most ranged attacks of the mobs are pretty weak, for that you have FFG and beacon, caltrops are for mitigation of melee damage. if they teleport - they will flee from caltrops. only werewolves ignore caltrops afaik.
Quote:
Originally Posted by plainguy View Post
Caltrops will make mobs run but they do turn around and fight even if at range.
on, they turn around and try to run to you, step in to caltrops, run away and so on.
Quote:
Originally Posted by plainguy View Post
What level where you..
What level was your Team Lead.
Did you have IOs , SOs , DOs slotted ?
What level is your Merc Traps now ?
man, you arn't police officer investigating a murder? how do i suppose to remember such details?
merc/traps got deleted, as mercs sucks, ive rolled bot/traps instead, who living mostly in RWZ on top of the mothership. hehe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by plainguy View Post
The normal game mechanics just make this impossible. Otherwise you would be doing this all the time and so would everyone else.
lol? game mechanics makes that pretty possible as it is already happened.
Quote:
Originally Posted by plainguy View Post
As Delta_Strider mentioned unless it was some odd moment in time in which the mob got stuck or something crazy which I have seen happen with AVs as well. Then it wasn't really Merc Trap skill or Player skill. It was a Glitch which makes your point moot really.
have you ever read what i wrote? i've lured him in a junction and trapped him with caltrops. isn't it clear by now?
o well, if you don't want to listen i don't want to explain. i spare my time writing a reason and you spare your time reading it. fine with me.

 

Posted

Quote:
traps are not about holding damage, but about preventing/avoiding damage.
if you want hold agro use /forcefields. period.
If you actually knew anything real about these powersets you'd know that Traps does not only have higher personal Defense numbers (outside PFF, but then you couldn't taunt with it on), but it also has -Rech, -Dam, -Tohit, self Regen and AoE control making it easily the superior set for holding aggro, whereas Force Fields is better at buffing your Henchmen making them better at talong the hits than you.

In other words, if you want to hold aggro use /Traps, if not, use Force Fields. Period.



P.S. If you want to make a more compelling case for your argument, you should 1) post some numbers/evidence to prove your point, 2) polish your grammar and 3) not resort to personal attacks like "lrn to play".

- @DSorrow - alts on Union and Freedom mostly -
Currently playing as Castigation on Freedom

My Katana/Inv Guide

Anyone who doesn't take truth seriously in small matters cannot be trusted in large ones either. -Einstein

 

Posted

It seems that there are strong emotions regarding different play styles. So in an effort to bring things back on track i.e. a solid build for a new player I have fleshed out another build with SO's.

You will all note the inclusion of self attacks and a lack of a travel power. I have Ninja run, so a travel power while nice isn't a necessity. I have tried to take many of your ideas into account while still retaining some individuality.

Once again I welcome your thoughts, concerns, and critiques.

Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.707
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Mass Tech: Level 50 Science Mastermind
Primary Power Set: Robotics
Secondary Power Set: Traps
Power Pool: Fitness
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Battle Drones -- Dmg(A), Dmg(3), Dmg(5), Acc(5), Acc(15), Acc(33)
Level 1: Web Grenade -- Acc(A), Acc(43), Immob(43)
Level 2: Pulse Rifle Blast -- Dmg(A), Dmg(3), Acc(7), Acc(7)
Level 4: Caltrops -- RechRdx(A), RechRdx(9), Range(37), Dmg(37), Slow(37)
Level 6: Equip Robot -- EndRdx(A)
Level 8: Triage Beacon -- Heal(A), RechRdx(9), RechRdx(36)
Level 10: Acid Mortar -- Dmg(A), Dmg(11), Acc(11), Acc(40), DefDeb(43), EndRdx(46)
Level 12: Protector Bots -- Dmg(A), Dmg(13), Acc(13), DefBuff(15), DefBuff(21), DefBuff(33)
Level 14: Swift -- Run(A)
Level 16: Photon Grenade -- Dmg(A), Dmg(17), Acc(17), EndRdx(40)
Level 18: Force Field Generator -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(19), DefBuff(19)
Level 20: Health -- Heal(A), Heal(21)
Level 22: Stamina -- EndMod(A), EndMod(23), EndMod(23)
Level 24: Repair -- RechRdx(A), RechRdx(25), EndRdx(25), EndMod(40)
Level 26: Assault Bot -- Dmg(A), Dmg(27), Dmg(27), Acc(31), Acc(34), Acc(34)
Level 28: Poison Trap -- RechRdx(A), EndRdx(29), Hold(29)
Level 30: Seeker Drones -- Dmg(A), Dmg(31), Acc(31), Acc(33), Dsrnt(34), EndRdx(46)
Level 32: Upgrade Robot -- EndRdx(A)
Level 35: Trip Mine -- Dmg(A), Dmg(36), Acc(36), EndRdx(46)
Level 38: Detonator -- Dmg(A), Dmg(39), EndRdx(39), EndRdx(39)
Level 41: Web Envelope -- Acc(A), Acc(42), Immob(42), EndRdx(42)
Level 44: Scorpion Shield -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(45), DefBuff(45), EndRdx(45)
Level 47: Mace Beam Volley -- Dmg(A), Dmg(48), Acc(48), Acc(48)
Level 49: Web Cocoon -- Acc(A), Acc(50), Acc(50), Hold(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Supremacy
Level 6: Ninja Run



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Posted

@ kalashnikow

I would love for you to post your current build and level.

For fairness here are my Builds

Robot Traps

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Robot FF - I have to live with the protector drones atm giving me the buff I am missing defense wise for Cap reasons

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Demons Sum Pain

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DS Traps Last pet only.. Its more of a theme build then anything. After 10+ 50s you need to try something new.

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Now mind you my Robot FF is at defense cap atm.. But a different build.

But your saying is you are doing it with SO's ? And you get no aggro fighting a AV solo ? So your Soloing AV's with A SO build.

Further your saying you did this with a crappy build of Merc Traps but deleted it because they stink. So now your Robot Traps.

Please by the love that all is holy to everyone DO NOT LISTEN to this guy.. Kid, and I know your a kid. Please trust me when I tell you.. There is no reason what so ever to have to come here to pound your chest. You are giving out bad info and then making up stories to back it up.
This game is MATH straight and simple, and if 1+1 don't equal 2 then something is wrong.

Some mobs are not even affected by Caltrops. Like the werewolves.

But your saying that your PETS are tanking an AV and and all you do is resummon them ? You don't have enough heals as a robot traps to even heal them up fast enough to keep them alive.

Your not even at defense cap with SOs and neither are you Pets.

MY current Robot FF build I am defense Cap.. MY pets are defense cap and I have Heal other and Repair and my Pets still die doing a +1 +8 Farms.

I guess in your world the pets have the perfect AI and don't run around all over. Stay where you tell them to stay.

Come on !! Your peeing on our virtual legs and trying to tell us its raining..

I tell you this.. Prove me wrong.. Show us your SO build lvl 50 Robot Traps that solos AVs. Let me see you do it. I will get a group together for Rom run and have them hold the nictus while you fight Rom solo. Heck forget the last mission I would like to see you do Rom on the computer mission. I would like to see you solo a EB. Or forget all the elite stuff a simple group of +1 +8 Samurai. Why Samurai, simple they do Smash and lethal damage which is the highest defense even SO someone is going to have as it is the most common damage type. So I am even taking it easy on you.. You can PM me or post it up here for the date time and server..

But Prove me wrong, I will come here with my tail between my legs saying what a fool I am. I have zero problem doing that. IF I am wrong, I am man enough to admit it and eat the crow I deserve.

As I mentioned this game is math wrapped around some Graphic. 45% is the defense cap. You have 3 Positional and 7 Type. SOs cannot get you to that number in the way you are describing or pretending to describe.

You have not reinvented the wheel. People smarter then me AND YOU have done the work already. You do not know some magic geometry trick that if you place caltrops at point A and another at point B it makes any mob including AVs defenseless and trapped.

Quote:
let me put it that way, i've played so far around 10 different MMs. not a single moment i felt a need for provoke or tankerminding. and none of them has used anything more valuable then standard IO
.
Quote:
i don't remember exactly the levels. i use mostly standard IO, no sets what ever. i don't like to farm for weeks. DPS output of such mob would have killed me, not only my minions. most ranged attacks of the mobs are pretty weak, for that you have FFG and beacon, caltrops are for mitigation of melee damage. if they teleport - they will flee from caltrops
Quote:
man, you arn't police officer investigating a murder? how do i suppose to remember such details?
merc/traps got deleted, as mercs sucks, ive rolled bot/traps instead, who living mostly in RWZ on top of the mothership. hehe
Your quotes..

You can't remember because its a lie.. You can't remember the day that you at 10 to 13 levels lower then a AV was able to kill him solo. Not one screen shot. I mean really that is a great pic to have to shut people like myself up when you tell the tall fish tale.

I don't farm either. But if your doing missions with your 50 your bound to get some decent IOs to sell. I mean really if your 50 and are all built on SOs you should have tons of game money.

I will say it again and again.. Your stuff does NOT add up mathematically.

I don't care that your cape drags on the floor causing a wind torrent to blind all that oppose you.. IF it does not add up.. Then it cannot happen..

1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives

 

Posted

I think this is a better build. With the Protector Bots you should be a Smash and Lethal Cap Defense. Think Rocks and Bullets when you hear smash and lethal.

Many attacks have a mixed component.. So they might do Fire and Lethal or Energy and Smash. So you get some defense but not all.

You will need Heal other to heal pets when Repair is down. I usually save Repair for my Assault bot and I wait until 2 of my tier 1 bots ( that is the first pet you get ) are dead before I resummon them. You will need an interrupt in your heals other and self because you will get aggro once you start putting out all your gimmicks. And since your not at any Positional Defense Cap when you get hit with anything that is not smash or lethal it will hurt. The interrupt will lessen the time the attack that hits you breaks you from using your Heal self or others.

The Maneuvers and Assault are for the pets to help hit and give more damage. Since your pets are lower levels then you, when your fighting mobs that are 1 or 2 levels higher then you they can be 4 levels higher for your pets. If they are not hitting it is not worth having them out.

Hasten helps ALL your powers recharge faster. bring the build into Mids and see the circle at the end of some powers like Hasten ? In this build they should be on Hasten, Your pets, Health, Stam, Force field gen, Maneuvers and tactics. Click on that little button it will go either green meaning ON or black meaning OFF ( duh ). Click Hasten off to notice the difference in the recharge for each of the powers. Some can go up higher as much as 10 seconds more. Example Repair with Hasten on 50 seconds.. Hasten off 72 Seconds.

If your gonna swap slots take from Acid Mortar and Caltrops. Because of the mind set of going with SOs, I think this is the minimum build you have to consider.

Trust me if people invite you to a team and don't see Tactics Maneuvers running and then your Pew Pewing with your gun. The next thing they will start noticing is your pets missing. At that point either they will tell you get rid of your pets since they are not hitting anyways or sadly get rid of you.


Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.707
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Science Mastermind
Primary Power Set: Robotics
Secondary Power Set: Traps
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Medicine
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Battle Drones

  • (A) Accuracy
  • (3) Accuracy
  • (3) Accuracy
  • (5) Damage Increase
  • (5) Damage Increase
  • (7) Damage Increase
Level 1: Web Grenade
  • (A) Accuracy
Level 2: Caltrops
  • (A) Recharge Reduction
  • (7) Recharge Reduction
  • (11) Slow
  • (11) Slow
Level 4: Triage Beacon
  • (A) Healing
  • (39) Healing
  • (40) Healing
  • (40) Recharge Reduction
  • (40) Recharge Reduction
Level 6: Equip Robot
  • (A) Endurance Reduction
Level 8: Hasten
  • (A) Recharge Reduction
  • (9) Recharge Reduction
  • (9) Recharge Reduction
Level 10: Acid Mortar
  • (A) Defense Debuff
  • (34) Defense Debuff
  • (34) Defense Debuff
  • (37) Accuracy
  • (37) Recharge Reduction
Level 12: Protector Bots
  • (A) Accuracy
  • (13) Accuracy
  • (13) Accuracy
  • (15) Damage Increase
  • (15) Damage Increase
  • (17) Damage Increase
Level 14: Swift
  • (A) Run Speed
Level 16: Force Field Generator
  • (A) Defense Buff
  • (17) Defense Buff
  • (19) Defense Buff
  • (21) Defense Buff
  • (21) Defense Buff
  • (34) Defense Buff
Level 18: Repair
  • (A) Recharge Reduction
  • (19) Recharge Reduction
Level 20: Poison Trap
  • (A) Hold Duration
  • (42) Hold Duration
  • (42) Hold Duration
  • (42) Recharge Reduction
Level 22: Health
  • (A) Healing
  • (23) Healing
  • (23) Healing
Level 24: Stamina
  • (A) Endurance Modification
  • (25) Endurance Modification
  • (25) Endurance Modification
Level 26: Assault Bot
  • (A) Accuracy
  • (27) Accuracy
  • (27) Accuracy
  • (29) Damage Increase
  • (29) Damage Increase
  • (31) Damage Increase
Level 28: Seeker Drones
  • (A) Recharge Reduction
  • (46) Disorient Duration
Level 30: Maneuvers
  • (A) Defense Buff
  • (31) Defense Buff
  • (31) Defense Buff
  • (33) Defense Buff
  • (33) Defense Buff
  • (33) Endurance Reduction
Level 32: Upgrade Robot
  • (A) Endurance Reduction
Level 35: Trip Mine
  • (A) Damage Increase
  • (36) Damage Increase
  • (36) Damage Increase
  • (36) Damage Increase
  • (37) Recharge Reduction
Level 38: Tactics
  • (A) To Hit Buff
  • (39) To Hit Buff
  • (39) Endurance Reduction
Level 41: Web Envelope
  • (A) Accuracy
  • (43) Immobilisation Duration
  • (43) Immobilisation Duration
  • (43) Immobilisation Duration
  • (46) Accuracy
Level 44: Scorpion Shield
  • (A) Defense Buff
  • (45) Defense Buff
  • (45) Defense Buff
  • (45) Defense Buff
  • (46) Endurance Reduction
Level 47: Aid Other
  • (A) Healing
  • (48) Healing
  • (48) Recharge Reduction
  • (48) Interrupt Reduction
Level 49: Aid Self
  • (A) Healing
  • (50) Healing
  • (50) Recharge Reduction
  • (50) Interrupt Reduction
------------
Level 1: Brawl
  • (A) Empty
Level 1: Sprint
  • (A) Empty
Level 2: Rest
  • (A) Empty
Level 1: Supremacy
Level 2: Ninja Run



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1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives

 

Posted

Alright - now normally I tend to not comment in the forums for the reason that I find it more amusing than anything, then go back to playing the game with the few people who I helped get most of the original numbers with. However, my one friend did recommend I check out this link so get a laugh out of the AV story, so hence here I am. Now before I explain why Kalashnikow is obviously lying about his AV encounter I will say this - *most* of what plainguy has said is sold stuff, for a starting player, you may want to mix and match a bit depending since often new people just don't like tanking as much with a MM. However his ideas on soft-capping defense are VERY good, and I'd use those as the starting point, and use either his or others ideas to work in the other skills as you want them to. In the end Bots/Traps is a very powerful combination (right up there with Thugs/Dark etc.) so you'll be pleased.

Now the reason that I decided to post...Kalash have you ever considered how level and AV/Monster/Boss status affects defense and damage? Let me give you a scenario. By the way, my numbers ARE correct, data mine them if you want.

Ok, you said you were sidekicked 10 levels above you...this means your maximum level could have been 39 (bringing you up to 49 after SK), I'll be generous here and give you the maximum values since you'll need them...you'll see why in a second. Now we'll also say that you were fighting +10 after your mentor left since well its still the best case scenario for you.

First off - defense: Let's say you even got to soft-cap, given your comments we all know you weren't, especially since you couldn't have been using level 50 IOs, but hey for the fun of it, we'll say you focus on defense and enhanced all of your defense skills with 6 lvl 40 IOs. Its the best number I can give you, and you'll need it. Now given your power sets the defensive skills we can say you had were FFG and Maneuvers, hell I'll even say you had perma-Seeker drones with 6 IOs for to_hit debuff too. That'd put you at lowering their base chance to hit to 50(base) - 16.8(FFG w/ 6IOs) - 4.41(Mans w/ 6 IOs) - 8.39%(Seeker Drones w/ 6 IOs) = 20.4%
Now, if they were +10 to you that raises that 20.4% by 40% to give them a 60.4% base chance. Now, they also get accuracy multipliers of 1.5 for being +10, and 1.3 for being a boss.
So let's say they use a VERY conservative AoE accuracy of 0.7 base attack. They still have a chance to hit of (0.7)x(1.3)x(1.5)x(60.4) = 82%
Now for the normal ST attacks of 1.0 its:
(1)x(1.3)x(1.5)x(60.4) = 117% -> 95% (cap)

So basically every time it attacks anything with a ST attack it hits, and it'll hit 8/10 times with an AoE attack (granted the AoE would probably be higher than that even), and this is all assuming BEST CASE scenario with your defense. So in the end: They hit you and your pets.

Now should we go the other way, your chance to hit him? For the sake of your sanity how about I don't do all the numbers, but the end result is you and your pet's chance to hit, even after Supremacy, Tactics, and 6 Accuracy IOs in all of your attacks - your BEST case scenario is 16%, the most likely scenario is the (luckily for you, lowest possible floor value) of 5%. So basically you don't hit them. Well there is that streak breaker thing (for you, not your pets) where you'll gain higher chances to hit after missing enough times...we'll average that out for YOU (not your pets) to hit once ever 7 seconds.

Now shall we go onto damage? Nevermind, let's not I'm pretty sure I'll be hurting your head with that first part. So I'll just sum it up: Your tier 1's are being one-shotted. Your tier 2s are most likely being one-shotted, possibly two. Your tier 3 will survive the weakest attack from the boss, not the strongest.

Now you're damage to him. Again, I'll stop on the numbers because your head probably hurts, however if it doesn't then just let me know and I'll be happy to type it all out for you. Well we already established that you can't hit him, but let's say you can. You do with your highest damage attacks, best case scenario 16pt of damage. Most likely scenario - 1-3. Now the flaunted caltrops that auto-hit! Max possible damage on those bad boys is not even 1. It'll show up on the screen as 1, but if you check the combat log, most likely it'll be 0.01.

Ok, let's set out the scenario with that information: You can't hit him, and when you do, you do almost zero damage, he almost always hits you, and does a massive amount. let's see how it plays out:

Kalahs sets out all traps and his merc tier 2s even stun the boss (we'll say it hits, why not), hit him with the -regen poison trap (or else he'd heal faster than he'd be damaged), hits him with the acid mortar so he takes a bit more damage, and maybe can hit him. Also throws down the caltrops so the boss runs back and forth a bit on them. Great start! Then the mercs start pounding away, they're shooting bullets all over the place, they're using fire to get extra damage, they're shooting and flashbanging and using the LRM, **** even the medic whips out his gun and start opening up on that Winter Lord! Its pure MAYHEM!!!! Then the mercs have to reload. We notice the Winter Lord's life has dropped only a couple points. He hasn't attacked yet because he was running around on the caltrops. He did however get out of the stun after about 0.5seconds due to the level difference. Since the Mercs MUST HAVE HAD Line of sight to shoot him, he opens up with a cone attack of his own, since this WAS in a clogged hallwayish type area. Two of the Tier 1 Soldiers die, and one of the Tier 2s gets hit. Somehow the Commando and both the Spec Ops survive. The Medic who also somehow managed to survive this uses a med-pac wisely on the wounded Spec Ops. The boss runs around a bit more scared he didn't hurt enough, and noticing those barbs on the ground are not hurting him at all. The villianous Mastermind resummon his Tier 1 pets, and the rest open up on the wimpy Winter Lord again, expecting to wreak havoc on him while the Seeker Drones have piled in now, the Acid mortar raining down on the Winter Lord, the poison making his regeneration rate plummet! This time we get the BIG SCORE! The Commando's flamethrower hits him for the extra damage of fire against the Winter Lord who has -resist to fire, combined with the -resist of the Acid Mortar its the big One! 24points. Unfortunately this makes the WInter Lord target him with his ST attack and he roasts the Commando, one-hit. Fear not! Our superstar of a Mastermind resummons him as well! As the commando is paragliding in to save the day the Winter Lord goes to the next threat generator - the Spec Ops and uses another ST ranged attack and roasts him. Our superstar Mastermind sees how its going and throw down more caltrops realizing if it goes into Melee its all over, he also waits to resummon the Spec Ops, knowing the other may die soon. The soldiers, newly recruited, but not yet upgraded unload as best they can again on the now-running-around Winter Lord. Bullets are flying everywhere, the casings are on the ground, it looks like Ragnarok come! Except bullets flying everywhere is right, none hit the target. Not a single bullet. By this time the web grenade, though slowing the attack rate of the Winter Lord...oh wait...it doesn't since the Winter Lord has resist to -recharge powers, and since its -10 it has less of an effect, but hey we can pretend it did! Finally getting over the -recharge of the webnade that somehow hit him, he blasts forth another cone attack which finishes off 2 of the Tier 1s and the last spec ops. WAIT! The battle isn't nearly over! Our now so-smart Mastermind is ready to resummon his Spec Ops to save the day, along with the last Soldier! Make that just the spec ops since while he's summoning them the Winter Lord blasts the last soldier with a single-target ranged attack. More caltrops are thrown to keep this beast at bay, he cannot come to the mastermind! All of the already deceased party cheers him on! Go -10 Mastermind you can do it, we know you can! We're not even going to the hospital we're so impressed with the Mayhem you're causing! As the Mastermind, running out of options uses all of his last available skills he again sees the Winter Lord start blowing out a shiver attack that hits both of his Spec Ops. Now its only a matter of time for the Mastermind....


Now, obviously I had some narrative fun with a story to go along with it - but the point is: You couldn't hit the boss, he'd always hit you. You wouldn't do any damage to him, he'd destroy you. You're disruption powers would have a duration of a second or less, his would last for nearly a minute. Your debuffs may tickle him, his would cripple you.

You lie, he wins.

Come back with a story that could possibly be true, and don't try to lie when there are still a few of us around who, as plainguy alluded to, figured out the math way before you were doing your AE runs to 50. If you really want to see all of the numbers and formulas for the exact reason I'm right then let me know and by all means when I have nothing better to do I'll come back and enlighten you, or try to at least since obviously it all wouldn't get through. Next time you're going to make a story up - either post it on the proper board for it, or try way harder. Or, perhaps your best option - make up a story I'll only laugh at and go on my way. Maybe, just maybe I won't tear it to shreds with how impossible the game mechanics make it.

To the OP - plainguy's advice on the capping defense is very solid, it'll keep you and your minions alive a long time, which is the number one reason MMs die...you won't die much against mobs but against EBs and AVs they'll start one-shotting your tier 1s with their AOE, the defense lets you keep going. Use that as the starting point, then all of the others had valid points, use theirs as you will to find if you would rather be a tankermind, or one that let's your pets take the aggro. The beauty of bots/traps is that it can be both and works well as both its a very solid build. Get the defense and you'll see yourself living a long time and brining the havoc with the debuffs and your bots. You'll enjoy the build either way. So go for it, have fun =)
--

Good is the Enemy of Great

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mondragon View Post
To the OP - plainguy's advice on the capping defense is very solid, it'll keep you and your minions alive a long time, which is the number one reason MMs die...you won't die much against mobs but against EBs and AVs they'll start one-shotting your tier 1s with their AOE, the defense lets you keep going. Use that as the starting point, then all of the others had valid points, use theirs as you will to find if you would rather be a tankermind, or one that let's your pets take the aggro. The beauty of bots/traps is that it can be both and works well as both its a very solid build. Get the defense and you'll see yourself living a long time and brining the havoc with the debuffs and your bots. You'll enjoy the build either way. So go for it, have fun =)
--
Thanks for the advice Mondragon, I am still fleshing out the build, trying to hit defense cap with SO's. I'll study the other builds for defense commonalities and add them to my own. Then as you say, go from there.

Btw, here is my latest build; all Defensive possibilities are Three-slotted with Defense Buff SO's. I admit I went OTT with Caltrops, but with this setup I can drop 2x Caltrops before Haste.

Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.707
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Level 50 Science Mastermind
Primary Power Set: Robotics
Secondary Power Set: Traps
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leadership
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Mace Mastery

Villain Profile:
Level 1: Battle Drones -- Dmg(A), Dmg(3), Dmg(3), Acc(7), Acc(7), Acc(9)
Level 1: Web Grenade -- Acc(A)
Level 2: Caltrops -- Dmg(A), Dmg(5), Dmg(5), RechRdx(9), RechRdx(37), RechRdx(40)
Level 4: Triage Beacon -- Heal(A), Heal(36), Heal(37), RechRdx(37), RechRdx(40), RechRdx(46)
Level 6: Equip Robot -- EndRdx(A)
Level 8: Swift -- Run(A)
Level 10: Acid Mortar -- DefDeb(A), DefDeb(11), DefDeb(11), RechRdx(25), RechRdx(34), RechRdx(40)
Level 12: Protector Bots -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(13), DefBuff(13), ToHitDeb(15), Acc(15), Acc(25)
Level 14: Maneuvers -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(46), DefBuff(46)
Level 16: Force Field Generator -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(17), DefBuff(17)
Level 18: Repair -- RechRdx(A), RechRdx(19), RechRdx(19), EndRdx(43)
Level 20: Health -- Heal(A), Heal(21), Heal(21)
Level 22: Stamina -- EndMod(A), EndMod(23), EndMod(23)
Level 24: Tactics -- ToHit(A), ToHit(39), ToHit(45)
Level 26: Assault Bot -- Dmg(A), Dmg(27), Dmg(27), Acc(31), Acc(33), Acc(33)
Level 28: Seeker Drones -- ToHitDeb(A), ToHitDeb(29), ToHitDeb(29), Acc(33), Acc(34), Acc(34)
Level 30: Poison Trap -- Hold(A), Hold(31), Hold(31), RechRdx(43)
Level 32: Upgrade Robot -- EndRdx(A)
Level 35: Trip Mine -- Dmg(A), Dmg(36), Dmg(36), Acc(43)
Level 38: Hasten -- RechRdx(A), RechRdx(39), RechRdx(39)
Level 41: Web Envelope -- Immob(A), Immob(42), Immob(42), Acc(42)
Level 44: Scorpion Shield -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(45), DefBuff(45)
Level 47: Mace Beam Volley -- Dmg(A), Dmg(48), Dmg(48), Acc(48)
Level 49: Web Cocoon -- Hold(A), Hold(50), Hold(50), Acc(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Supremacy
Level 6: Ninja Run



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Posted

I would take slots out of caltrops and Seeker drone to 6 slot Force Field gen and Maneuvers with defense. That should get you to 41.8 or something in Smash and Lethal defense.

I would change the caltrops to slow instead of damage. Because they do lousy damage for the start anyways. I would rather have mobs moving very slow in the caltrops and staying in there LONGER.

I do not think you need to slot the Protector bots with 3 defense. I think 1 alone will get you to defense cap. Honestly I don't think you need any. I believe at 50 with no defense I get 7% from them. Or when you level I would get the slots and leave them blank.. summon them and see how much defense they give you.. Dismiss them and then slot them with 1 defense and see how much it is.

I think you should skip the extra stuff in the patron pool and pick up Aid other and Aid self. Yes you do have Triage beacon and it helps, but because your pets will be running all over not at defense cap and you have nothing to hold aggro yourself. And further your only at Smash and lethal defense cap.. Anything that is not Smash or Lethal is gonna hurt as I mentioned.

The impression I am getting is your imagining that your gonna tell your bots to attack Mob soandso from a distance and they will stand there and attack mob soandso from a distance. Sadly for some unknown reason at this time, they do not. 3 may stay.. 2 will charge in and one will move to another direction to get into range. Why again who knows.. Sometimes one of those pets will run into another group of mobs and aggro them and probably get killed.. Less bots.. less bodyguard mode.

I just feel your bots will be running all over and your limited heals will have you summoning your pets more then you will want. Plus that's a big endurance drain. Your net endurance gain is 1.37. The usual safe number is 2 or above.. As you can see your below that number. Just activate all your powers and subtract from your EndRec which is 2.48 Your EndUse which is 1.11. Which leaves you with 1.37..

So if your using all those attacks, trust me Traps alone is more then enough to keep you busy. You will see that you will run out endurance to do anything important when you need it. End result is you will then end up with attacks you will hardly use.

1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives

 

Posted

As I replied once I suppose I can reply again with a couple of number updates to help out with the slotting.

Though first thing...plainguy how do you intend to 8slot something? Maybe once INcarnate comes out we'll be able to, but currently 6slotting is the max.

As for maxing out the defense here's the deal on the numbers. First off the soft-cap is 45% so let's aim for that.

Your protector bots will shield you 7.5% (unehnaced) at level 50. Personally, if I were using SOs (which I wouldn't, since at level 50 with the Enhancement Diversification you get nearly the same effect with two level 50IOs vs 3 lvl 50 SOs), but if I were using SOs, then I'd slot in the 3 defensive into the prot bots. That'll kick their defensive shields up to 11.7% each.

Same with FFG, the 3 SOs in each will put that at 15.6%. With Maneuvers, if you want to you can put in the 3SOs for defense...and that puts you at 4.1%....however chances are without any end reducers in there it'll start eating away at your end (up to your playstyle), so keep in mind if you change over a Defense SO to an End Redux SO you'll only go from 4.1->3.68% defense change, not a huge deal.

For SOs, you're right that is the highest you're going to get - running (assuming the build you posted) 43.1% defense. Pretty close to the cap to be sure. If you happen to have your seeker's out, then that essentially puts you above cap for that mob they hit (since to_hit debuff is applied directly against to_hit, making it the same effect in the total chancetohit formula as defense).

I would NOT recommend putting any more than the 3 of each type of SO in any given power as the added bonus is horrible and the slot can be used elsewhere.

There are some slots I'd move around etc, maybe change up some powers but I don't like telling people to take a power or put slots somewhere unless its a specific question since you will learn that as you play most likely...especially on powers, but if you really want to know I can tell you.
However, a couple glaring things I would suggest you reconsider:
-Damage in caltrops not very helpful it doesn't do a ton, not for the length of time the enemy is on them, and your bots have a ton of KB most likely knocking them off of the trops. If you really want to go for it, would I personally put three in there? Not a chance.
-Defense debuff in Protectot Bots? They'll use that attack not very often, and it has a minimal impact, I'd recommend a damage or heal before that (and chances are not the heal)
-I already mentioned to just watch your end drain, if you're always running out chances are you'll need to put an end redux in Maneuvers/Tactics/Scoprion Shield as those are all heavy end users.
-Health - you shouldn't be getting hit often, if you are the regeneration provided by this isn't going to save you...personally I'd move the two slots elsewhere (seriously the two extra slots give you an extra 0.8hp/second recharge)
-Seeker Drones - consider a recharge or two instead of all to_hit debuffs, remember you're going to be running only a couple points away from soft-cap defense anyway (or your will be above it) so making them debuff accuracy from 5% to 7.8%...does it really help? Or would it be better to be able to summon theme very 45 seconds instead of every 90 seconds?
-What I'd also recommend is either get some macros/binds ready, or for bots at least learn to do the "attack my target" while they're away from you as they should at least let loose a couple volleys of fire before potentially running into battle (this can of course be countered with a couple good keybinds), but that is part of what makes bots so good as a solo power, they can continually KB people away from them to stay in range where the bots excel and most enemies suck. There are some good links and guides here for keybinds.

Have at it.

Good is the Enemy of Great

 

Posted

Quote:
Though first thing...plainguy how do you intend to 8slot something? Maybe once INcarnate comes out we'll be able to, but currently 6slotting is the max.
Fixed.. typo.. Thanks for catching that..

Silly but somewhat important. Call out Protector bots first, for the simple reason is the Protector Bots will Bubble you LAST. So if you summon everything out, they will bubble your force field generator even before you. So if you summon the Protector bots first they will bubble themselves and then you. Your only third one the list instead of seventh.

1. Why Soft Cap is Important : http://dechskaison.blogspot.com/2011...important.html
2. Limits: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Limits
3. Attack Mechanics: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Attack_Mechanics
4. Rule of Five: http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Rule_o...e_Law_of_Fives