I'm finally starting to "get" controllers


Cyberknight

 

Posted

It's taken roughly a year and a half, but I'm finally starting to grasp the controller mindset.

I initially learned game mechanics soloing as a scrapper and blaster, so making the mental adjustment to controllers took some work. I created and deleted quite a few controllers in frustration along the way. The reduced number of attacks and the prevalence of DoT in the archetype both added to my frustration.

The biggest "a-ha" moment was realizing how to set up and use containment. I know it seems basic to you grizzled, controller vets, but it took a while to click for me. I think it came together when I noticed that my science-origin power (tranq dart) caused containment on a Vahzilok cadaver. Then I started looking for ways to re-create the wonder.

From the start, I was intrigued by the idea of controllers, but it just seemed like something was... lacking. (i.e. massive orange numbers over the bad guys' heads) Now, I appreciate the unique capabilities and challenges of the archetype.

Currently have an Ill/Rad (level 21), Mind/Cold (level 11), Grav/Storm (level 9) and Plant/Storm (level 8)

Anyway, I just wanted to encourage other solo players out there to consider controllers. They're not as intuitive as some of the other archetypes, but they still have plenty to offer.


 

Posted

Of your four controllers, you have the three single target damage controllers. Illusion does good damage as long as you start with Blind and learn how to take advantage of Spectral Damage. Mind has its own attack chain to take most advantage of Containment with Dominate-Mezmerize (slotted as an attack)-Levitate. Grav has a high damage solo attack chain of GD-Crush-Propel. Both Illusion and Mind can disable other foes with Deceive/Confuse before the fight begins, letting you take down foes one-by-one. But these three controllers will change in the upper levels when you start to get some AoE control abilities. Each of the three are different enough that you will need to develop different strategies for each. Grav/Storm in particular can be a complex mix of powers that used well will be very effective, but used wrongly can be a mess.

Plant gives you a better idea of what a higher level controller is like. Seeds of Confusion handles an entire group, locks them down with Roots, and then lets you focus on individuals (like bosses) with Strangler. Plant is a different playstyle than other controllers in that it gets such effective AoE control so early.

Low level controllers are mostly hold and blast. Upper level controllers are far more complex with a variety of tools to adapt to most situations. That's why I like them so much -- so much flexibility instead of Blast, Blast, Blast or Hit, Hit, Hit.

Take a look at my Illusion/Radiation guide if you haven't already. It includes a lot of strategy tips and core information about controllers in general and Ill/Rad in particular. The link to the guide is in my sig.


LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control

 

Posted

Thanks, Local. I read your Ill/Rad guide a while ago, but I could probably benefit from re-reading it. (along with some of the other primary/secondary guides as well)

I think the recent increase in recipe drops for temporary powers has also encouraged me to give controllers another try. I can now arm myself with a variety of melee and ranged attacks without neglecting the controller primaries and secondaries. I guess it's a "security blanket" kind of thing... I just like knowing that they're there if I need them. This is especially true for my Mind/Cold in terms of dealing with robots/drones. It's good to have options.


 

Posted

After you get some of your others into higher levels . . . try an Earth or Ice controller. Very little damage, so you have to team and focus on control rather than damage. Earth is a great ranged AoE controller with very little damage. Ice can be ranged, but works best (in my opinion) as a melee controller (using Arctic Air) who follows the tanks and scrappers. For somewhat different secondaries, you could try Earth/Therm or Earth/TA, and Ice/Kin or Ice/FF (really, really low damage).

And then there is Fire/Rad and Fire/Kin.


LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control

 

Posted

I forgot to mention one other factor in my belated conversion to controllerism.

When playing blasters and scrappers, I enjoyed those power sets that provided controller-like capabilities to supplement the damage they dish out. (i.e. Ice/Ice, Devices and Dark Melee/Dark Armor) After incorporating those aspects of control into my thinking, it wasn't much of a stretch to give full-fledged controllers a try.

Don't get me wrong... I still enjoy wanton destruction as much as the next guy. But sometimes you get a craving for a little finesse. They both have their place.


 

Posted

Welcome My first 50 was a Kat/Regen, but after spamming the same few attacks every single mob, aside from clicking an occasional heal, the set gets kind of tired. Then I picked up my Ill/Rad controller and I love 'em. So very, very versatile. Probably my favorite toon.

And as Local_Man said, then there's Fire/Rad and Fire/Kin. Couldn't put it better myself.

-MT


Global: @Master Templar on Freedom.
"This here's my demon face. You see I'm Satan's onion...s-scallion.. 'Minion?' no, not that."

 

Posted

Plant Control is IMO a great control set to try as your first Controller. It's smack in the middle of all the sets in most respects, and probably the easiest of the Control sets to learn. Not that any of them are easy. Learning to be good at Controlling takes a lot of play and getting splattered a bit on the way. But it's also good that you've played other ATs, particularly squishies, because it gives you an idea of what those ATs need to thrive.

The other thing about Controllers you're about to discover, by the way, is we are "corner turners" in terms of performance. It's really hard to judge what playing your character will be like at 50 from performance early on. Throughout your career you will make sudden huge leaps in effectiveness--in particular when you first when you get your pet, and when you hit the epic levels. A level 50 Controller (even the low damage ones) is really quite scary.


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Master_Templar View Post
Then I picked up my Ill/Rad controller and I love 'em. So very, very versatile. Probably my favorite toon.

And as Local_Man said, then there's Fire/Rad and Fire/Kin. Couldn't put it better myself.

-MT
The versatility is what appeals to me. I like having a well-stocked toolbox so I can pick the right tool for the right job.

At the risk of sounding naive, why did you and Local_Man single out Fire/Rad and Fire/Kin? What makes them different from other controller combos?


 

Posted

Let me tell you a few things about Grav/Storm in particular.

I hated Gravity until I teamed it with Storm as a secondary. Once I got mine up in levels, I found that this is one of my favorite controllers to solo with. It is not necessarily fast, but there are so many strategic options that it makes it fun.

To me, there are three powers in the Gravity set that make the set worthwhile . . . the others are kind of bleh. Propel is simply fun to see what comes next . . . and it is always fun to smack somebody with a stone gargoyle or an old rusty Chevy. It was made even more fun when the Devs added a bunch more stuff to throw. (By the way, the stuff you see is only on your computer. Everyone else on the team sees different items.) But Propel takes so bloody long to animate, it becomes very frustrating on teams. You spend a lot of time firing off what I call "necro-blasts," clobbering some poor *** after he's already dead.

At level 16, Grav/Storm gets more interesting. One unique thing about Grav is that its AoE Immobilize, Crushing Field, does not include -knockback. The AoE Immob powers in Fire, Ice, Earth and Plant all have -knockback. You can get Freezing Rain from Storm at 16 (and you should!). Not only does FR give a huge debuff, it also creates a somewhat unrelyable knockdown field. Other sets with Storm allow the foes to try to run out of FR, but the AoE Immob from Grav keep them in the area AND allows the foes to fall down where they are. This gives you some nice damage mitigation that other combos with Gravity don't have. Add Snow Storm for some nice -Recharge.

With all the single target damage from your GD-Crush-Propel attack chain, all the foes you are not attacking get a chance to beat on you while you are stuck in that long animation for Propel . . . until you pick up Hurricane. It pushes foes away AND debuffs their ToHit. A big help.

Gravity gets really, really interesting with Wormhole. It is an AoE foe teleport with stun and knockback. This power takes a while to learn how to use, and it can take a little bit of time to set up for just the right situation. Learn to find a place to hide out of line of sight from your target. You can combine Wormhole with Storm really well. The stun in Wormhole can stack with Thunderclap. You can Wormhole foes into a corner, Immobilize them, Freezing Rain, Thunderclap, Hurricane to keep them there, and then throw out Lightning Storm and Tornado to chop them up while picking off individuals with your GD-Crush-Propel attack. That's fun! Most of the time, you don't need to use all of that, but you can.

Then Singularity adds a bunch more. Singy is a great tank . . . solo, I use Steamy Mist + Super Speed for invis. I drag Singy into groups to keep them distracted. Then I have all my tools to beat up on the bad guys. Or I can Wormhole into a corner, and let Singy help me beat on them. Singy's Damage is not real great, but it helps -- he's mainly a controller.

Grav/Storm is a really fun combo as long as you can last through the lower levels and get into the upper ones.


LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post

The other thing about Controllers you're about to discover, by the way, is we are "corner turners" in terms of performance. It's really hard to judge what playing your character will be like at 50 from performance early on. Throughout your career you will make sudden huge leaps in effectiveness--in particular when you first when you get your pet, and when you hit the epic levels. A level 50 Controller (even the low damage ones) is really quite scary.
I'm seeing a bit of that on my Ill/Rad even at his relatively low level. Getting Stamina and slotting an end mod IO produced a quantum improvement; it allowed him to maintain Superior Invisibility, RI and attack without depleting his endurance. Also got lucky with two Gaze of the Basilisk recipes early on, which allowed him to increase hold duration and thereby improve his chances for containment.

All basic stuff, I know, but it adds some welcome variety to my previous style of play.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nova Knight View Post
The versatility is what appeals to me. I like having a well-stocked toolbox so I can pick the right tool for the right job.

At the risk of sounding naive, why did you and Local_Man single out Fire/Rad and Fire/Kin? What makes them different from other controller combos?
Fire/Kin is famous for being powerleveled for Farmers. Many people pick Fire/Kin because "I hurd it was gud and i wanna farm." And, in fact, it is good for handling large numbers of lower level foes, and killing them pretty quickly. Fire is a melee set focused more on Damage, and Kinetics boosts that damage quite a bit. The problem is that most, but not all, Fire/Kins tend to not be very good teammates. Do a search on Fire/Kin, and you see tons and tons of threads on them. (I have one at 43, but I just haven't been motivated enough to get her up to 50 yet. -- But I'm not really into farming.)

Fire/Rad is another good farming toon, but not as fast as Fire/Kin. Fire/Rad doesn't kill as fast, but it doesn't die as much. Fire/Rad is strongest on a team of Fire/Rads. It is one of two builds that can make good use of Choking Cloud to make the "lazy man's controller." Run Choking Cloud and Hot Feet, cast Flashfire (stun) and Fire Cages (immob) from range, then run in and stand there while Choking Cloud holds and Hot Feet chips away at their health. Fire/Rads have been very, very popular on these boards in the last few months . . . and some of us are kind of tired of answering another question about Fire/Rad builds. Still, I have two of them, one at 50 and another at 42. I find it more fun than a Fire/Kin.

Both are good builds and very effective. Both are overly popular, and we see too many threads on "Tell me how to make a good Fire/Kin" or "Fire/Rad." So, us elitist controller snobs turn our nose up at them. . . . but we still answer their questions, 'cause were nice elitest controller snobs.


LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control

 

Posted

I always say that, if Scrappers and Blasters are the "bullies" of heroside teams, Controllers are those guys who hold your arms behind your back while the bullies punch you.


If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog

 

Posted

You may also want to take a look at Dominators if you like the Controller lifestyle. They are like Controllers in some respects, but more streamlined in that all of them focus pretty heavily on the combo of mezzing and damage. While not necessarily an AoE damage archetype they are ridiculously awesome at AoE control, giving most Controllers a run for their money. A well built Dominator deals great damage and is capable of locking down groups of bosses in a way most Controllers can only dream of due to their "Domination" inherent power that doubles the magnitude of all mezzes. For this ability they trade the versatility of a Controller and the buffs/debuffs/self heals/utility powers.

Aside from a some outliers, most Controllers are team players. It's just that our less team-y builds tend be the most popular, so you hear a lot about how "Controllers are able to do this" or "solo that." They can, but that's because the archetype is extremely flexible and runs the gamut.

You mentioned you had a Mind/Cold character. I have one of these and love it. It's a very effective character. But you also said you like to see orange numbers, and I just warn ahead of time Mind/Cold is probably not a set you'll see a lot of that. It's certainly a fun combo--but damage is hard to do because your best debuff conflicts with the aoE Sleep power. Elite bosses are also very difficult to solo because you lack Containment altogether. Now that my guy is somewhat purpled out I can solo at +0 x8 if I'm cautious, but I'm stuck using Total Domination for Containment and stay far away from Elite bosses unless I'm on a team. It's a different lifestyle; on a team you're a god but solo it's just ok. If you're interested in doing lots of damage with Mind Control, you may want to take a quick look at Dominators. Mind/Fire in particular is known to be an outrageously awesome combo.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex View Post
You may also want to take a look at Dominators if you like the Controller lifestyle. They are like Controllers in some respects, but more streamlined in that all of them focus pretty heavily on the combo of mezzing and damage. While not necessarily an AoE damage archetype they are ridiculously awesome at AoE control, giving most Controllers a run for their money. A well built Dominator deals great damage and is capable of locking down groups of bosses in a way most Controllers can only dream of due to their "Domination" inherent power that doubles the magnitude of all mezzes. For this ability they trade the versatility of a Controller and the buffs/debuffs/self heals/utility powers.

Aside from a some outliers, most Controllers are team players. It's just that our less team-y builds tend be the most popular, so you hear a lot about how "Controllers are able to do this" or "solo that." They can, but that's because the archetype is extremely flexible and runs the gamut.

You mentioned you had a Mind/Cold character. I have one of these and love it. It's a very effective character. But you also said you like to see orange numbers, and I just warn ahead of time Mind/Cold is probably not a set you'll see a lot of that. It's certainly a fun combo--but damage is hard to do because your best debuff conflicts with the aoE Sleep power. Elite bosses are also very difficult to solo because you lack Containment altogether. Now that my guy is somewhat purpled out I can solo at +0 x8 if I'm cautious, but I'm stuck using Total Domination for Containment and stay far away from Elite bosses unless I'm on a team. It's a different lifestyle; on a team you're a god but solo it's just ok. If you're interested in doing lots of damage with Mind Control, you may want to take a quick look at Dominators. Mind/Fire in particular is known to be an outrageously awesome combo.
Well, I have dabbled in domination. (Geez, that suggests all kinds of non-game activity that may not be suitable for children.) Anyway, I've played a couple low-level dominators but decided I wanted to get a better handle on controllers first. I do plan to revisit redside because I like the idea of combining control with offensive capability, but it's currently on the back-burner.

For my mind/cold, I plan to handle Bosses the same way I'll tackle robots and machines - I'll mez their allies and have them whittle the Big Bad down to size before I finish 'em off. Yeah, I'll lose some experience, but I'm more interested in the intellectual challenge of accomplishing the mission with the tools at hand. (which increasingly include various Temporary Powers) It may not be the optimum solution, but I'm OK with it. And I'll be learning more about controllers along the way.


 

Posted

If the other AT's are superheroes then controllers (and MM's) are Gods.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosticus View Post
If the other AT's are superheroes then controllers (and MM's) are Gods.
I was going to argue, but then the word "overpower" appeared above my head and it all seemed to make perfect sense. Must... surrender... free... will...


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frosticus View Post
If the other AT's are superheroes then controllers (and MM's) are Gods.
SSSSSHHHHHHHHHH !!! before the devs nerf us again

having played hero side combos i keep coming back to controllers as my favourite ,once you get past the early levels i just find them to most fun to play solo or team.With Dual builds you can even specialize for both,although i find a good build will work anyway.

P.S. local man using your ill/rad guide i have slotted it up for perma PA and i am outlasting the tank !!.A real fun toon made even more fun .


 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cyberknight View Post
SSSSSHHHHHHHHHH !!! before the devs nerf us again

. . .

P.S. local man using your ill/rad guide i have slotted it up for perma PA and i am outlasting the tank !!.A real fun toon made even more fun .
Thank you. That guide has been very popular, and I'm glad that I put a lot into it. A lot of what is in there comes from a lot of discussions here in the Controller forum, with people discussing their own experiences. The guide has something like the third highest number of hits among all the guides.

The perma-PA build I posted further down in the thread is the one I use, and I love it. I just took Area Man on a Sarah Moore TF (in the Shard) last night, and it is so amazingly effective. Good single target damage with a nice pop of AoE damage from Fireball. I'm very glad I put as much Recovery in there as I could, as I rarely have endurance issues.


LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control