Superior Invisibility doesn't suppress in combat... and you can actually attack with SI active (you cannot with the pool invis).
Because Superior Invisibility allows you to attack, heal, buff, etc. while Invisibility from the power pools hits you with the status Only Affecting Self. You can't affect enemies or teammates.
The Pool Power Invisibility also has a considerably higher endurance cost. Granted, both are over the 1.00 mark, but the Pool version is significantly over while Superior Invisibility is just barely over.
Best Reason?
Because Deceive (Confusion) does NOT cause SI to surpress! So you can run right into the middle of a spawn and confuse individual mobs without them ever twigging to the fact that you're even there ;-)
Great Party trick!
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You can also cast Phantom Army and summon Phantasm without drawing aggro, and cast Spectral Terror. You can get in position right in the middle of a large group to fire off Flash or EM Pulse.|
Originally Posted by Argentae
Best Reason?
Because Deceive (Confusion) does NOT cause SI to surpress! So you can run right into the middle of a spawn and confuse individual mobs without them ever twigging to the fact that you're even there ;-) Great Party trick! |
Frankly, when you are invisible, the foes aren't supposed to be shooting at you. You might get some splash AoE, but you shouldn't need melee or ranged defense unless and until you do something to draw attention to yourself. The obvious exception to this is +perception foes.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Got it. I guess I didn't realize that casting PA or any non-attack while using the pool Invisibility would drop Invisibility. If you're all sure about that, since I didn't see notation of that in City of Data, that is certainly a great reason to stick with Superior Invisibility. Thank you.
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It doesn't drop Invisibility. You simply can't use any power that affects anything other than yourself while pool Invisibility is up. Certain other powers are that way, like Personal Force Field.
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Originally Posted by GreenBone
Got it. I guess I didn't realize that casting PA or any non-attack while using the pool Invisibility would drop Invisibility. If you're all sure about that, since I didn't see notation of that in City of Data, that is certainly a great reason to stick with Superior Invisibility. Thank you.
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I wouldn't get either.
Given the option, I'd go with the Concealment pool tier #1, Stealth, plus a Stealth IO in Sprint (jump or run, doesn't matter). That will grant you full invisibility when you run both toggles together, since the stealth IOs stack with any other form of stealth. You don't even need to leave sprint on (since you can just "tap-on" sprint for 120 secs of stealth every two minutes).
Stealth: 0.33 End/Sec, +35 Stealth (PVE), 2.25% Defence (+2.25% when not attacked)
Sprint + Stealth IO: 0.29 End/Sec, +30 Stealth (PVE)
Sup. Invis: 1.04 End/Sec, +200 Stealth (PVE), 2.25% Defence (+2.25% when not attacked)
Invis: 1.3 End/Sec, +55 Stealth (PVE), 9% Defence (cannot attack whilst using invis)
PVE Mob Perception Ratings from ParagonWiki:
+ Minion, pet, Mastermind henchmen (all tiers): 45
+ Lieutenant: 50
+ Boss, Elite Boss, Archvillain/Hero: 54
+ Turret, Giant Monster: 100
+ Sniper: 149
So running [Stealth + Sprint] requires less End than either Sup. Invis or Invis, grants a better Stealth rating than Invis (+65 to +55), grants the same Defence as Sup. Invis and still lets you attack whilst Invisible the same way as Sup. Invis.
The only extra thing the other options have going for them is that Sup. Invis will prevent you from being spotted by a Turret, Sniper or Giant Monster (assuming it doesn't have any +perception powers). And the Stealth IO requires a bit of inf to craft.
[Edit] Actually, come to think of it, since you're an Illusion Troller you'll have Phantom Army, right? And therefore probably Hasten too in order to get PA up sooner? So another option would be to just take SuperSpeed then and slot a Stealth IO in it- you'd lose out on the extra tiny bit of +Defence, but you'd get Full PVE Invis for only 0.46 End/Sec and save on one of your four power pool picks. [/Edit]
Except when you attack with Stealth on it suppresses both the stealth and the defense.
Superior Invisibility doesn't suppress either, hence why it is called "Superior" Invisibility. The end cost is high because you can do anything you want and still keep your stealth.
Regular Invisibility's end cost is, honestly, kind of irrelevent since you can't do anything with it on.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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This isn't accurate. With both Stealth and SI, the stealth and half of the defense granted by the power will suppress if you are attacked or generate aggro. You can heal, buff, and use non-aggro powers like Deceive, Flash Arrow, and Mass Hypnosis without breaking your stealth. However, if you perform an action flagged to notify the mobs (any damage and most debuffs), they will become aware of your presence and attack. |
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Except when you attack with Stealth on it suppresses both the stealth and the defense.
Superior Invisibility doesn't suppress either, hence why it is called "Superior" Invisibility. The end cost is high because you can do anything you want and still keep your stealth. Regular Invisibility's end cost is, honestly, kind of irrelevent since you can't do anything with it on. |
Also, note that casting PA or Spectral Terror will notify the enemies. If you stand in line of sight and cast Spectral Terror you will receive return fire. PA, on the other hand, tends to grab that aggro in time for your stealth to return to its unsuppressed state.
As others have said, there is no supression so it allows you to aggro only groups of enemies which you have damaged or a member of your team has damaged. You can see more at this video where you will notice that I was fighting a couple Nemesis troopers right next to another spawn of Troopers I hadn't damaged yet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7hedznrxx8
You might also find this odd little glitch interesting as well. If you combine Group Invis with Superior Invis you are able to only aggro enemies with in the SAME spawn which you have damaged. However upon the death of those enemies the rest of the spawn will auto aggro to you.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEwrsfePVZY
Unless something has changed Confusion doesn't generate aggro at all although Terror will because it is a pseudo-pet that is an extention of the player.
Honestly, the only reason I have chosen the Pool over Superior Invisibility is that I wanted Phase Shift for concept reasons.
And actually, I'm thinking of picking up Superior Invisbility and saying it is a phase shift.
It isn't impossible to have both to be honest. I have both on my character but then again I take the crutch of Stamina either. You'd be surprized how a little bit of tactics and efficient slotting frees up those 2 powers you'd normally waste.
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Well, my problem is that while there is plenty of difference between Stealth and Invisibility to prevent them from overlapping, there isn't that much difference between SI and Stealth or SI and Invisibility. It's like the best of the two powers combined. So since I must have one or the other (and Grant Invis) to get Phase Shift, it feels to my like I must get two duplicate powers. And while I'll pick up two powers that are CLOSE, I just refuse to pick up a power that I will never use, because it's redundant. |
Originally Posted by Tal_N
It isn't impossible to have both to be honest. I have both on my character but then again I take the crutch of Stamina either. You'd be surprized how a little bit of tactics and efficient slotting frees up those 2 powers you'd normally waste.
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Honestly, I wish that Phase Shift could be picked as one of those travel powers you don't need the prerequisites for with that Vet Reward. Even if it is a fourth tier power instead of third tier.
Yeah, I was originally asking the questions because I had it in mind both for concept and for a panic button to work in Phase Shift. I'm wrestling with whether or not I plan a build to be subpar just to have a panic button, though. And I believe there's a Phase Shift temp power I can pick up in those cases.
So I guess I'll be sticking with Superior Invisibility to feel "truly" invisible versus the Stealth IO trick, and will pick up the Phase Shift temp power. I have the power picks, and this saves a power pool for something else. Now, what to pick up for that something else. (By the way, Trick Arrow is my secondary)
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It seems that with Group Invisibility alone you can pull a single enemy from a mob. The threat level reduction from it doesn't suppress. Superior Invisibility, however, does suppress its threat level reduction when attacked. Very interesting. I'll have to play around with my Illusion troller more a bit later.
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Originally Posted by Tal_N
As others have said, there is no supression so it allows you to aggro only groups of enemies which you have damaged or a member of your team has damaged. You can see more at this video where you will notice that I was fighting a couple Nemesis troopers right next to another spawn of Troopers I hadn't damaged yet.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k7hedznrxx8 You might also find this odd little glitch interesting as well. If you combine Group Invis with Superior Invis you are able to only aggro enemies with in the SAME spawn which you have damaged. However upon the death of those enemies the rest of the spawn will auto aggro to you. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEwrsfePVZY Unless something has changed Confusion doesn't generate aggro at all although Terror will because it is a pseudo-pet that is an extention of the player. |
Just for the record, there is utterly no point in mixing SI with anything else because it instantly sends you to the stealth cap. I'm not sure but I think GI does as well.
Personally I think having caps on perception and stealth is kinda stupid anyway, but as it stands now the whole concept of stealth is broken because it has a lower cap compared to perception.
Okay, I've played around a bit more and here's what I'm seeing with SI and GI. My statement before about stealth and defense surpressing was incorrect. Here's what I've observed with ingame numbers.
In both cases, defense surppress to half of its value when attacked.
The stealth in neither power is surpressing when attacked. (Note that there are two values for stealth in SI on Red Tomax's guide. Both values should surpress when you click a glowie. One of them remains even when attacked.)
The reduced threat level of SI surpresses when attacked, but the same effect in GI does not.
That reduction in threat level is really interesting and something I'll have to play with a bit more.
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Or just throw the IO in Super Speed for nearly-free invisibility that allows you to attack with a bit of suppression penalty.
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Originally Posted by Maelwys
I wouldn't get either.
Given the option, I'd go with the Concealment pool tier #1, Stealth, plus a Stealth IO in Sprint (jump or run, doesn't matter). That will grant you full invisibility when you run both toggles together, since the stealth IOs stack with any other form of stealth. You don't even need to leave sprint on (since you can just "tap-on" sprint for 120 secs of stealth every two minutes). |
Yes, I realize I have to take a prerequisite power if I choose the Pool Invisibility, but Mids says the Pool version gets 7% DEF, while Superior (from Illusion set) gets 2.25%! I know the numbers are low, but without a compelling case, and if I have the extra pick, why wouldn't I get the Pool version, plus Hover, plus set bonuses for better DEF?
Thank you for your thoughts.