Poor EM
I guess that's what we're getting next
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I don't personally see Fire as a contradiction to your statement Billz, but was just tossing a bone to the other side of the argument. |
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
Perhaps you can explain to me why this is a valid contradiction of the base statement.
You state yourself that it "wouldn't have been unbalanced if directly ported using the tanker model, it just wouldn't have been 'fun' given the way brutes and scrappers are envisioned to play." So there was no balance issue present there. The change was put in place for no more reason but developer whim, just like the changes made to claws when ported to brutes. That leaves only the single discrepancy of the .2 base damage subtraction on scrapper GFS, which to be perfectly honest, I can't wrap my mind around as being enough of a change to warrant granting it the "see?!?! the whole set was changed before proliferation!!" badge. |
I saw it safer and more fair to note it as a set that was changed a fair amount during porting, but then offer reasons as to why it was changed that supercede numerical balance. I agree it was changed for much the same reason as claws albeit it to a greater extent.
As for GFS the only reason I can come up with as mentioned earlier is for BS scrappers to retain their throne as the "hardest" hitters. I very much suspect that was the reason and if that is the case then it makes a port of SM, SS, EM even more difficult as it will devalue the theoretical dps evaluations even further.
It's worth noting that of the 4 sets shared between all 3 AT's TWO of them have persistent (or high up time) damage buffs that are closer to the Rage family of buffs than the Buildup family. The AT modifiers, as Billz states, already account for the fact that blinding feint and soul drain are considerably more potent on scrappers. While Rage is certainly more powerful that Feint and more powerful than Soul drain over time, it is worth noting that while soul drain is up it is considerably more powerful than Rage.
If the AT modifiers (and by this I mean modifier+inherents) can handle saturated Souldrain while it is up then they should be able to handle the similar contrasting increase of Rage between the AT's. For those that don't know: SD saturated is a 150% damage buff for scraps, and a 120% buff for tanks/brutes Vs. 100% to 80% on rage (200% to 160% while double stacked).
I think that when devs make powersets, they don't always keep all AT's in mind that can use that powerset, when its being designed. Rage by premise fits in Super Strength and its mechanics of +DMG make a lot of sense to make Super Strength compete with other Tanker secondaries. Rage may have been intended to last as long as it does and the ST powers (other than KoB) were made weaker on damage scale to compensate for this.
Build-Up isn't really a problem across the AT's in melee powersets because it doesn't have a chance to stack for more Scrapper DMG discrepency compared to Brute/Tank. Only with rage stacking is it noticeable that the Scrappers glean an additional 40% damage vs Brutes and Tankers. This was either oversight, or with any several assumptions: Rage would work differently with Scrappers, SS would never go to them (or stalkers more or less), the extra 40% damage is not seen as overpowering enough.
Any melee powerset with enough self +DMG boosts are going to favor Scrappers over Brute/Tanker in damage output when in burst damage and little/no DoT. We've seen that SS on scrappers as is won't overpower them. They will be the new AoE kings only because SS was designed to be the AoE king of melee powersets given the moveset it has and the lack of AoE until Footstomp. I don't see that as imbalanced or overpowered if that's what SS was intended to do, especially given that it is 10th in ST damage of the top 10 ST melee damage dealers. You see sets like Fire Control and /Fire Assault which place top 10 in more than one category within a list of similar powersets.
I think, rather than asking the question will SS be OP on Scrappers, we should ask, "If we give SS to Scrappers, do we want Scrappers to be best with SS, or should that remain with Brutes (due to fury)?"
I think SS will need to be changed for Scrappers only because I'm of the opinion that powersets should be best on their native AT's, or rather, should perform the best overall on their native AT. If there was anyway to make it so SS originally came with DoT powers and w/ Build Up duration Rage we'd not be having this discussion of SS Scrapper OP, but a different one entirely. You can't do a blanket statement of "If not OP on Brute, then not OP on Scrapper" because mechanics in a powerset that normally compensate the native AT's weaknesses(lower damage mods) will only stretch the discrepency in DMG on the new AT, in comparison to its other powersets and the native AT.
A list of ways to change SS by power, for Scrappers:
Footstomp change: Radius: 7', End Cost: 11.125 (It is now their smashing version of Thunder Strike with more AoE damage, 2s more of recharge)
Knock-out Blow: Range: 7'. The previous 13' range makes sense for thematically and traditionally 'larger' AT's like Brutes/Tanks, compared to Scrappers, and this brings KoB to seismic smash range while taking 5s more recharge, and longer cast time to give a MAG 7 KUp. Don't ask me why Seismic Smash has 7' range when you're wielding a stone mallet vs KoB barehanded @ 13'.
Rage: Affects for 60s. The duration is halved, simply put, making it harder to stack it for a sizeable duration, if at all. Someone do the math to figure out how much 90% global recharge from IO sets, +70% from haste and 100% FF procc'ing. would do for your Scrapper Rage.
Just put rage on a fixed timer so it can't stack and maybe take out some +tohit. Problem solved.
Just don't touch my footstomp's recharge or radius! It's an important part of my brutes survival in huge groups. (I don't cap defenses)
@True Metal
Co-leader of Callous Crew SG. Based on Union server.
Rage on a damage forward AT that can actually take advantage of it's damage buff? Yummy!
Seriously, SS for Brutes and Tankers is fine with Rage as is because their lower base damage lessens the overall damage output increase Rage offers. I use Rage on my Brutes for the +to hit more than anything, because an AT that's balanced around running at about +300% damage doesn't gain as much from +80%. When I already have 200% from fury and 100% from slotting, another 80% is an actual increase of about 20% (if my math is correct; I'm also taking into account base 100% damage).
Scrappers getting 80% more damage would see more like a 40% increase to their actual numbers. (100% base, 100% enhanced being considered "normal".) Add to that the fact that they have significantly higher base damage being increased, and Rage *as is* would be over powered. The added to hit would just make it even more so.
Unfortunately, I have no real idea how to balance without ruining the feel of the set. But the fact that it does need to be balanced means it will probably be one of the last sets to get proliferated.
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I would give EM a loving home. |
Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze
Poor EM
I guess that's what we're getting next |
Playstation 3 - XBox 360 - Wii - PSP
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Samuel_Tow: Your avatar is... I think I like it
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I was clearly saying SS for scrappers came in tenth on the chart I was pointing at, I'm sorry if you're still struggling to understand that. If I photoshoped the chart with an arrow pointing at scrapper SS with the number 10 next to it, would that help?|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Your line is, and I quote, " yet it comes in TENTH for scrappers". Am I supposed to read what you intended rather than what you wrote? You specifically said that "it" came in tenth. Not "SS for Scrappers". You may want to try avoiding the use of pronouns in indeterminate ways..
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| Because we're discussing whether Brute SS would be overpowered? SS is balanced within the context of the Brute AT because Fury dilutes the effects of Rage. That's one of the big reasons why I don't complain about SS for Brutes, specifically (though I have no complaints about complaining about Brutes in general).. |
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Honestly, yes. Claws doesn't do everything in exactly the same way that SS does. Claws can do respectable ST damage (I wouldn't say "good" especially if you look at the top tier performance), respectable to good AoE performance (Shockwave is impressive, Eviscerate can perform well, and Spin is excellent, though they all have counterpoint that inhibit their use), and though it's a bit light on soft control when you look at it (Focus has knockdown and Shockwave has knockback... and that's it).. Compare this to Super Strength: moderate to excellent ST performance (especially when you give it to Scrappers rather than Brutes), excellent AoE performance (footstomp anyone?), and excellent hard and soft control (every power either stuns, holds, or knocks). The comparison between the two isn't exactly strong.. |
Having said that, just to be clear, you saying 'honestly, yes' means you want to nerf claws too? How about stone melee? Are we going to balance all of the fun sets down to ice melee, is that the plan?
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| Before you attempt to call me out on my information, make sure you get yours right. |
pssssst... claws has a third AoE in eviscerate. FU, Evis, Spin, Shockwave, repeat is easily done. You can even remove SW and still have a fluid chain with the first three. Perhaps someone could do a pretty write up for average AoE output between the two sets for brutes so that we can put the little argument of SS's *supposed* AoE dominance to rest.
Be well, people of CoH.
Fire Melee*
*It is worth noting that Fire Melee wouldn't have been unbalanced if directly ported using the tanker model, it just wouldn't have been 'fun' given the way brutes and scrappers are envisioned to play. Or at least not fun until very late level.
You state yourself that it "wouldn't have been unbalanced if directly ported using the tanker model, it just wouldn't have been 'fun' given the way brutes and scrappers are envisioned to play." So there was no balance issue present there. The change was put in place for no more reason but developer whim, just like the changes made to claws when ported to brutes.
That leaves only the single discrepancy of the .2 base damage subtraction on scrapper GFS, which to be perfectly honest, I can't wrap my mind around as being enough of a change to warrant granting it the "see?!?! the whole set was changed before proliferation!!" badge.
Be well, people of CoH.