Which sets will survive best?

This is wrong because Kat/ DPS outperforms BS/ DPS by a significant margin. Werner covered the numerical comparison nicely.

This is wrong because /WP is far from squishy leveling up, regardless of primary, and becomes even easier to level if paired with Kat/ due to DA, or DM/ due to SL. Also, Spines/ was not one of the options the OP referred to, and it doesn't offer any appriciable mitigation assistance for added survivability, unlike DM/ and Kat/**.

** I don't view Spines/ secondary effect to be terribly effective for mitigation, especialy in comparison to DM/ having SL and Kat/ having DA.

I have a Katana/Willlpower scrapper, yes. And I have a Broadsword/Shield scrapper, yes. Both are at level 50 and both have soloed AVs, Rikti Pylons, and so on. Both can solo at +4x8. And neither was powerleveled at all, but both were leveled to 50 by running normal content with normal SO enhancements.

I have played 5 scrappers to level 50 in this way, and each of them used a different primary and a different secondary. So yes, I know what I am talking about.

In fact, a little over a year ago, I was partly responsible for the conventional wisdom concerning Broadsword attack chains being re-examined. Currently, the attack chain I proposed at that time is considered the best possible DPS chain for Broadsword scrappers.

Now, I can tell you very plainly that you don't know what you're talking about at all. You think you do, but that only exacerbates the fact that you don't.

Let me break down your post point-by-point to make it more clear:

1) "while kat/wp is great they do start off slowily" Katana/Willpower doesn't start out any more slowly than any other scrapper, with the possible exception of Regeneration scrappers who get QR much earlier. Katana has strong, efficient lower-tier attacks. Willpower has a couple passives that boost survivability significantly without costing endurance. These are not the hallmarks of a late-blooming combo. They are the hallmarks of a combo that starts out strong and keeps getting stronger.

2) "but near end game kat can come close to the damage output of the broadsword itself." Now, bear in mind that I know Broadsword attack chains and Katana attack chains like the back of my hand, but especially the Broadsword ones. I am a bigger fan of Broadsword than I am of Katana from a thematic standpoint. But putting aside secondaries, Katana outperforms Broadsword in both single-target and AoE damage. From an early level and on throughout the game. At virtually all levels of recharge. See Werner's post above, he uses numerical analysis of the powers themselves to demonstrate this fact.

3) but i would recommend spine/wp like kat this type ends up being a beast in both pve/p. Nothing wrong with this statement really, except insofar as there are other powerset combinations that clearly outperform spine/wp in any aspect of pve or pvp. But the point is well taken, Spine/WP is a good combination. It starts off strong. It gets stronger.

4) but it does have a 1 problem it starts off squishy. No squishier than any other scrapper. In fact Willpower gets off to a very strong start because of its passives. Spines has issues, but it has valuable mitigation in the form of debuffs inherent in its attacks. Again, other primaries will offer less mitigation than spines and therefore be squishier.

5) much more for a scrapper. More for a scrapper than for what? A stalker? News flash: scrappers are less squishy than stalkers at any level.

Now, I don't really mean to jump down your throat here. You have a right to post as you see fit. But you are saying a lot of highly ignorant things and you're going to be corrected. To make matters worse, you're starting to throw around insinuations that the people correcting you (ok, me specifically) don't know what they're on about. But believe me, now is not the time for you to bandy about such talk. Now iis the time for you to lurk and learn.

That's great advice right there.

Oh, wait, to your latest post:

No, only the wrong things you say will be wrong. When you say right things, they will be right.

If you want to know why the things you said were wrong, then the answers are here. You can learn from them. But in the very same breath, you say that now it doesn't matter. Well, which is it? Do you want to learn why the things you said were mistaken, or does it not matter to you now?

I'll let you respond to that question before I say anything more.

if i may i play mostily scrappers i have over 10 50s non where power leveled. i have 1 kat/reg. 1 kat/wp, 2 spine/wp, 1 spine/regen, 1 fire/wp. i could go on but i wont. i can also solo avs and such.
but the point is we are both right and both wrong. so to say i dont know what im saying is presuptius. to say when someone wrong with nothing to back up on what the other person says. im not saying your wrong you have merit ill give you that. but to say i have none is wrong. i play on freedom. true i go play abit differntily then others.
but my point holds on both the kat/wp and spine. becuase i do know what im saying. wheither or not you agree with it.

No, you are not "both right and both wrong." Please, consider that Chaos, Werner, and myself have all given you factual information based upon actual numerical comparisons as well as objective and accurate information about why your recommendations were not valid and/or incorrect.

no what that means is that some people have it thier heads they are always right and some who offers some small adivse is wrong. sorry but i think thats bull. but whatever. i wont make this kind of mistake again.
btw there are great players such as myself who doesnt post on the boards. and i think im done with this this board. as yall elites want to tell me shutup and let yall talk. so thats what im going to do.

I suppose whether Katana/Willpower starts off slowly or not can be a matter of opinion. "Slowly" is a very wishy-washy term. You may have meant in general, in which case I could almost agree, because most Scrappers seem to me to start off fairly slowly. But I think what's relevant to the topic at hand is whether Katana/Willpower starts off more slowly or more quickly than other strong combinations. Even then, comparing the slowness of secondaries starting off is pretty vague. But I would say that CONSENSUS is that Katana starts off pretty strong due to Divine Avalanche giving you a massive boost to survivability at an early level. Gambler's Cut recharges quickly. You can build a seamless attack chain at a fairly low level if you try. Not that you should, but you can. Your first few secondary powers give you resistance, hit points and regeneration, which tend to be much more useful at a low level than defense, which is what some of the secondaries give you. You get your status protection at level 10. So do some other secondaries, but many have to wait longer than that, with level 16 being fairly typical, or needing to get a lot of slots or a higher level for it to work like in Super Reflexes or Shield Defense. So I'd say Katana/Willpower starts off quite fast compared to the average Scrapper. Not a huge difference, but a difference. But again, "slow" is a very nebulous concept, so technically, yes, I suppose I'd have to admit that you aren't "wrong" in a fundamental sense. You're just "wrong" in the sense of "that's not the experience of the majority of people playing the set". Doesn't mean it wasn't YOUR experience. It's just not the normal experience. Or perhaps I should say not the normal experience of people posting on the forum. It's possible that our experience is not typical. I suspect it IS typical, but I can't be certain.

A question like "Does Broad Sword do better or worse damage than Katana?" has a correct answer. This isn't a matter of opinion. It's not a matter of how much damage you FEEL like you're doing after playing both sets to 50. It's a question that can be answered numerically. Katana is better. There may be islands of exception at some levels of recharge, and certainly chosen attack strings can make a difference, like a good Broad Sword attack string will beat a bad Katana attack string. But generally speaking, in nearly all cases, Katana does better DPS. Broad Sword probably gets a slight edge for Burst damage, if by burst we mean just the first few seconds, so I suppose there's that, though I don't think it's an important or large advantage. They'll do similar AoE, but Katana will do it with less time spent on AoE attacks. Again, it's slightly better.

It might be the wrong assumption in this particular case, but the general "rule" on the Scrapper forum is that unless you specify PvP, you're talking about PvE. Also in support of that assumption in this particular case, Dark Melee/Super Reflexes and Katana/Willpower are both great PvE combinations, but I believe (I don't PvP) they are pretty sucky PvP combinations. So I'm guessing that the PvP portion of this isn't very relevant.

I don't have experience with Spines/Willpower. I will guess that it IS A beast in PvE. However, it's a beast in the "survives well enough and puts out very good AoE damage" sense, not in the "it's a hard core tank build" sense. Maybe with enough IOs. But I'm pretty confident we could make IOd builds to trounce it in the survivability department using other combinations. And without IOs, Katana/Willpower is simply going to be more survivable due to the contribution of Divine Avalanche. It won't do nearly the AoE damage as Spines/Willpower, but that wasn't what the OP was asking for.

Probably about average. It's not getting much help from the primary. Willpower is a good from the start, but without much help from the primary, yeah, I'd probably describe it as starting out squishy. On the other hand, MOST Scrappers start out squishy, so I'm not sure this means much. But fine, you're right, Spines/Willpower starts off squishy. Not everything you said was wrong.

Much more for a Scrapper than what? Tankers and Brutes don't get Spines. As best I can tell, only Stalkers get Spines/Willpower in addition to Scrappers. I confess to having never played a Stalker or number crunched Stalker survivability. About all I know is that they have fewer hit points (though apparently not by a wide margin). Maybe the hiding and placate and all that makes up for it, so a Spines/Willpower Stalker is less squishy than the equivalent Scrapper? Certainly possible for all I know.

==========================

Now, you're probably looking at the Scrapper forum and thinking, "what a bunch of dicks". But I can tell you that we only very rarely act this way. And we act this way when someone presents misinformation, we correct it, and then they continue insisting that they're right. We're just not fans of misinforming people who are asking questions. We won't just go "oh, OK" when someone is wrong, just because they're really really sure they're right, and really really strident about saying so.

Oh, you posted again. Let's see...

You're RIGHT! Some players DO have it in their heads they are always right. We have it in our heads that we're right in this particular case because we have all these FACTS and DATA to back up what we're saying. You have it in your head that you're right because... uh... because you've played the game a bunch? Because it FEELS like you're doing more damage with Broad Sword? Because your Spines/Willpower FEELS really survivable to you? Something like that?

You could have turned this into a learning experience for yourself. Your ego won't let you. That's fine. No loss for us, only for you.

It's a filthy, filthy habit. I should try to wean myself off of it. Or maybe cold turkey.

i respect your post. sorry if people think im always thinking im right. i wasnt try to say that nor was what i was induldge. i only wanted to offer some advise. that was what original post was. i dont like getting dogpiled on. when i do i get more rude*. and people start thinking i might not know what im talking about.
what i mean slower i ment out of all of the scrapper types. sorry f that wasnt clear.

Hm. I'd use the (purple) patch.

Well, thanks, and I'm sorry if I was a jerk. My intentions were good - I want people to get good advice. I believe those were your exact same intentions.

Can BS come out on top when /SD is the secondary? (AAO)

Currently, in the Rikti Pylon Results thread, my BS/SD time is ahead of the highest DPS Katana time by maybe 20dps, so the answer to your question is technically yes, although it isn't an apples to apples comparison. My BS/SD time used saturated AAO; with just the pylon in range, I did less damage than some of the Katana builds recorded.

(There may be some broadsword builds out there that outdamage mine, too, although I'm not aware of them.)

Depending on the secondary, Katana COULD be competitive even with AAO-saturated BS/SD in maximum DPS, but it would pretty much require a damage aura AND an attack chain that doesn't utilize Divine Avalanche, which is a recipe for comparatively low defense.

Hmmm.

Now I am curious.

Has anyone routinely solo'd mixed Rularuu at +4x8? I'd be impressed as hell if so.


In my book they're still the toughest faction out there, even nastier than Vanguard.

Oh HELL no!

Yes, ridiculous to even suggest such a thing.

(looks around nonchalantly)

(Also, Werner, did I get at least a tiny groan from you for my purple patch joke earlier in the thread? )

+4x8 Rularuu solo? Hell, I'd love to even see what happens. I bet the brutes and wisps and natterlings would not be too bad. The eyeballs...will destroy you.

I bet the mixed spawns will destroy you even faster.....

>.>
<.<

Originally Posted by Iggy_Kamakaze I hate to be the bringer of bad news... but Willpower sucks!!! you're better off rolling a regen