Blessing of the Zephyr defense decrease
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2010-04-14 06:12 in Player Questions
Its buried in the dev digest, but Castle himself started the thread on it. heres the link
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...43#post2724743
Thank you, thank you!
Stormy
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Why refund it? it is still powerful.
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Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA
I have used the search feature trying to get "red name" or at least authoritative information that the Blessing of the Zephyr defensive bonuses are getting drastically reduced.
I don't know if it is true, a very solid rumor, or what. I searched and searched with no luck, can someone please tell me if this is true, and if so what the new downgraded values will be? When will this be done? Are the developers making any allowances for "refunding" the cost of the IO? Or point me out to a link, please, please? Stormy |
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Originally Posted by The_Coming_Storm
Why refund it? it is still powerful.
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Agreeing with TCS - didn't the OP get the bonuses when slotted in currently?
And refund what exactly? What do you refund someone who bought an IO with merits vs. someone who got as random drop/roll vs. someone who paid "WANT IT NOW" prices on the market vs. someone who placed a bid and waited 3 months and got very cheaply on market?
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Yes. You get a respec.|
Originally Posted by Stormfront_NA
Are the developers making any allowances for "refunding" the cost of the IO?
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IOs not slotted will be refunded the inf(luence/amy) it cost to craft.
Salvage and market fees will not.
Where to now?
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In my opinion the change IS justified, no matter how personally annoying it may be to me.
It's an IO set that gives you 3.13% defense to ranged and AoE for just 3 slots. Anyone at all can slot them, because the powers it slots into are pool powers for the most part.
To get equal bonuses you need to slot 6 Mako's Bite AND 5 Scirocco's Dervish, and that's assuming you even have a power that will take them (okay, I suppose you could slot Brawl if you really wanted to, but why?)
So, 3 slots versus 11 slots? I'd say the change is justified. I'm not happy about it, but I agree with it. (Kind of an odd stance to have now that I think about it)
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Not really an odd stance, you just seem to have recieved a rare drop of 'common' sense.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
So, 3 slots versus 11 slots? I'd say the change is justified. I'm not happy about it, but I agree with it. (Kind of an odd stance to have now that I think about it)
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Originally Posted by The_Coming_Storm
Why refund it? it is still powerful.
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Originally Posted by PennyPA
Agreeing with TCS - didn't the OP get the bonuses when slotted in currently?
And refund what exactly? What do you refund someone who bought an IO with merits vs. someone who got as random drop/roll vs. someone who paid "WANT IT NOW" prices on the market vs. someone who placed a bid and waited 3 months and got very cheaply on market? |
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
Yes. You get a respec.
IOs not slotted will be refunded the inf(luence/amy) it cost to craft. Salvage and market fees will not. |
You have to love these kinds of replies.
1. It is still powerful
LOL if someone came in and replaced your 120 volt power lines with 60 volt lines would you be saying that while none of your electrical equipment still worked.
Zephyr did a job, it no longer does
2. Why should he get a refund ? Well he spent time and effort building a character that would use the IOs in good faith.
Not giving a reasonable refund on this and no a respec and the crafting price isn't reasonable compensation its just taking a crap on the work someone put in on their character.
As to it being too powerful ? Well if you have a character that can take 5 movement powers you can trade 4 powers that are redundant and 8 or 12 slots for some defense. If you can do that, it isn't Zypher that is overpowered but your primary or secondary or AT that is badly designed.
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Improper analogy, since your characters can still function, and function well. Whole powersets have been reduced far more than this, and still work just fine. Zephyr was too powerful, and is being brought back into balance, nothing more.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
You have to love these kinds of replies.
1. It is still powerful LOL if someone came in and replaced your 120 volt power lines with 60 volt lines would you be saying that while none of your electrical equipment still worked. Zephyr did a job, it no longer does |
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2. Why should he get a refund ? Well he spent time and effort building a character that would use the IOs in good faith. Not giving a reasonable refund on this and no a respec and the crafting price isn't reasonable compensation its just taking a crap on the work someone put in on their character. |
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| As to it being too powerful ? Well if you have a character that can take 5 movement powers you can trade 4 powers that are redundant and 8 or 12 slots for some defense. If you can do that, it isn't Zypher that is overpowered but your primary or secondary or AT that is badly designed. |
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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Got to love these kind of post with no purpose...|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
You have to love these kinds of replies.
1. It is still powerful LOL if someone came in and replaced your 120 volt power lines with 60 volt lines would you be saying that while none of your electrical equipment still worked. Zephyr did a job, it no longer does 2. Why should he get a refund ? Well he spent time and effort building a character that would use the IOs in good faith. Not giving a reasonable refund on this and no a respec and the crafting price isn't reasonable compensation its just taking a crap on the work someone put in on their character. As to it being too powerful ? Well if you have a character that can take 5 movement powers you can trade 4 powers that are redundant and 8 or 12 slots for some defense. If you can do that, it isn't Zypher that is overpowered but your primary or secondary or AT that is badly designed. |
1. MMO games change over time. This is not the same game as I1 or I10. So expect changes and plan ahead.
2. Care to prove what someone put in to get these IOs? How are the devs to know how someone didn't some gift from a player that quit and thus getting for free? Or that they got their IOs other ways I pointed out? How do you refund to make fair?
EDIT - Aett, you are the fastest!!!
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Originally Posted by PennyPA
Got to love these kind of post with no purpose...
1. MMO games change over time. This is not the same game as I1 or I10. So expect changes and plan ahead. 2. Care to prove what someone put in to get these IOs? How are the devs to know how someone didn't some gift from a player that quit and thus getting for free? Or that they got their IOs other ways I pointed out? How do you refund to make fair? EDIT - Aett, you are the fastest!!! |
Yes because incorrect things were done in the past that is ample justification for continuing the practice.
Nice strawman on asking for the unproveable . Just how long does it take you to design a build, buy the IOs slot them and then tune the build ?
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Care to explain what this 'practice' is? The Devs aren't omniscient, after all. They don't always know the full extent of everything that they implement in the game. As such, balance changes need to happen. That's how this is SUPPOSED to work.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Yes because incorrect things were done in the past that is ample justification for continuing the practice.
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| Nice strawman on asking for the unproveable . Just how long does it take you to design a build, buy the IOs slot them and then tune the build ? |
Does it stink that people put a lot of effort into builds with Zephyrs in them? Yes. Does that mean the Devs should leave something in that is fairly clearly broken in terms of slots and rewards? No.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
Aett, I was typing my reply...but well you know I will never out-type you. You say it so much better! 
Half the changes that go into a game, on average, will make things stronger and the other half will make them weaker.
People tend to think that the "make things stronger" changes are theirs by right, and the "make them weaker" changes are abominations that should be destroyed.
I want them to roll the IO defense changes back to the good ol' days when you didn't GET typed to go with your positional, or positional to go with your typed. Back when Kin Combat gave 3.11% to Lethal, no smashing, and no melee. Back when six Thunderstrikes gave you 2.5% Energy, no Neg, and 2.5% Ranged.
Who's with me?
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
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LOL. I'll let you get the next one!
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Originally Posted by PennyPA
Aett, I was typing my reply...but well you know I will never out-type you. You say it so much better!
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Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
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That sounds reasonable until you think about it and realize that people weren't stacking Zephyrs to make an AT functional, they were stacking Zephyrs to push ATs with zero defense all the way up to softcapped. By that logic, everyone in Paragon City should be softcapped.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
As to it being too powerful ? Well if you have a character that can take 5 movement powers you can trade 4 powers that are redundant and 8 or 12 slots for some defense. If you can do that, it isn't Zypher that is overpowered but your primary or secondary or AT that is badly designed.
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Imagine you're Daredevil. You live or die solely by your super reflexes; you're hard to hit. Now imagine that Stan Lee makes every other character in his Universe just as hard to hit and agile as you are. Except that most of the rest of them are ALSO armored, or made of steel, or regenerate, or have force fields, etc.
You're now the weakest possible superhero in the Stan Lee Universe. Everyone else gets what you get...AND a pony.
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
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You answered yourself right here |
Originally Posted by Aett_Thorn
Care to explain what this 'practice' is? The Devs aren't omniscient, after all. They don't always know the full extent of everything that they implement in the game. As such, balance changes need to happen. That's how this is SUPPOSED to work.
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About the same with or without the Zephyrs. About the same as before Zephyrs were even in the game. About the same after this change to them. Does it stink that people put a lot of effort into builds with Zephyrs in them? Yes. Does that mean the Devs should leave something in that is fairly clearly broken in terms of slots and rewards? No. |
Giving a single respec with this and saying "there you go" is a crappy practice.
As to being fairly clearly broken not so much.
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Originally Posted by Sailboat
That sounds reasonable until you think about it and realize that people weren't stacking Zephyrs to make an AT functional, they were stacking Zephyrs to push ATs with zero defense all the way up to softcapped. By that logic, everyone in Paragon City should be softcapped.
Imagine you're Daredevil. You live or die solely by your super reflexes; you're hard to hit. Now imagine that Stan Lee makes every other character in his Universe just as hard to hit and agile as you are. Except that most of the rest of them are ALSO armored, or made of steel, or regenerate, or have force fields, etc. You're now the weakest possible superhero in the Stan Lee Universe. everyone else gets what you get AND a pony. |
But to put your analogy in COH terms, The SR scrapper doesn't have to build for just defense, they can build for recharge, plus hitpoints, plus damage, plus regeneration, etc. The SR scrappers build is also the best defense. If you want to see just how bad not having, ddr is on real builds, make an ae mission with overseers and bright novas. Then watch your defense disappear.
The point where these analogies fall apart is they compare a maxed out build of one particular type against a minimum build of another type. The SR scrapper can easily cap his defense do so to all positions, have immense DDR, and then build for other things. He also starts with 20% recharge bonus for 1 pick in his build and 0 slots.
@Fulmens, if you want your game to be more difficult don't slot IOs. It always seems that the people who complain about things being too easy mean its too easy for other people. The means to increase their own challenge is always at hand
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It's fair and equal - the point you seem to want to ignore - and is a great practice.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Giving a single respec with this and saying "there you go" is a crappy practice.
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Apparently players put all their eggs in one basket like this IO set and/or didn't consider that this set was OP'd or that MMO games change. There is no way to consider all the possibilities to make a fair compensation for this kind of behavior. The devs have stated the game is balanced around SOs. IOs, let alone sets, are optional. I don't believe in free handouts to players claiming they spent hundreds of hours of play time to make these builds and in reality just copied some build in the forum and took the IOs out their SG bins.
The players that slotted these got their monies worth since these IOs have existed and giving them the bonus. Why would anyone expect this to remain forever in the game?
Lastly, since I like to read the forums, after the initial clamor, a number of players have been posting new builds not dependent on this set. The general response is that little has changed - a few % drops or changes in HP, regen, rech, etc. But nothing drastic. In other words, not a big deal.
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Are you auditioning to play a Vogon in the next remake of Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy ?|
Originally Posted by PennyPA
It's fair and equal - the point you seem to want to ignore - and is a great practice.
Apparently players put all their eggs in one basket like this IO set and/or didn't consider that this set was OP'd or that MMO games change. There is no way to consider all the possibilities to make a fair compensation for this kind of behavior. The devs have stated the game is balanced around SOs. IOs, let alone sets, are optional. I don't believe in free handouts to players claiming they spent hundreds of hours of play time to make these builds and in reality just copied some build in the forum and took the IOs out their SG bins. The players that slotted these got their monies worth since these IOs have existed and giving them the bonus. Why would anyone expect this to remain forever in the game? Lastly, since I like to read the forums, after the initial clamor, a number of players have been posting new builds not dependent on this set. The general response is that little has changed - a few % drops or changes in HP, regen, rech, etc. But nothing drastic. In other words, not a big deal. |
"What your species has only one planet ?"
"What you couldnt get to your local planning office on Alpha Centauri ? its only 4 lightyears away, well if you cant take that little trouble to be aware of whats going on around you, its no concern of mine"
Edit: And its a shame Douglas Adams can't do an AE arc. I remember his game Bureaucracy it was AE before there was AE.
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Why is a free respec not fair? |
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Giving a single respec with this and saying "there you go" is a crappy practice. As to being fairly clearly broken not so much. |
It lets you take them out of your build and sell them on the market for whatever you can get if you so choose. At no cost to yourself aside from market fees.
What, you want them to give you free influence for the "inconvenience" of it?
What about someone who got all 3 pieces as drops and already had the salvage for them? (Yes, they exist) They get money to replace what they didn't spend on it?
A respec to pull them out o your build and do a you please with them is perfectly fair, asking for more than that is pretty silly.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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I am not really affected by the change personally but I know plenty of people that have shown me their builds and will be. Going from a botz oriented build to a differently oriented build is not a minor thing.|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Why is a free respec not fair?
It lets you take them out of your build and sell them on the market for whatever you can get if you so choose. At no cost to yourself aside from market fees. What, you want them to give you free influence for the "inconvenience" of it? What about someone who got all 3 pieces as drops and already had the salvage for them? (Yes, they exist) They get money to replace what they didn't spend on it? A respec to pull them out o your build and do a you please with them is perfectly fair, asking for more than that is pretty silly. |
If you have the max slotting of it, you have 5 sets at three pieces each. Thats 15 IOs that need to be pulled. Then you have to get your character where you want them to be. You have to remove or dump other sets that you have slotted, and then build to what you actually want.
Your mileage may very on what you want to take out or keep for your new concept.
Just for example if you want to go from botz to smash lethal defense, your build completely changes. If you are going from defense to high recharge, high regen, or high damage, its equally big.
My own feeling is that Botz wasn't overpowered. The level of performance it provided could and still can be achieved by other means. It just provided a different way to get there.
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And still have nothing to add to the thread...okay.
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Originally Posted by Another_Fan
Are you auditioning to play a Vogon in the next remake of Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy ?
"What your species has only one planet ?" "What you couldnt get to your local planning office on Alpha Centauri ? its only 4 lightyears away, well if you cant take that little trouble to be aware of whats going on around you, its no concern of mine" Edit: And its a shame Douglas Adams can't do an AE arc. I remember his game Bureaucracy it was AE before there was AE. |
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Originally Posted by PennyPA
And still have nothing to add to the thread...okay.
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You mean aside from disagreeing with your position, providing reasoned positions why its wrong and finding your lack of consideration for your fellow players a little bit off ?
Not really
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Very, VERY few builds have enough powers to use BotZ 5 times. Most can only fit it in twice. That's 6 IOs that need to be swapped out, IF you don't want the bonus that it will still be providing. Even if you can use it three times, that's still enough that one respec will cover you.|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
I am not really affected by the change personally but I know plenty of people that have shown me their builds and will be. Going from a botz oriented build to a differently oriented build is not a minor thing.
If you have the max slotting of it, you have 5 sets at three pieces each. Thats 15 IOs that need to be pulled. Then you have to get your character where you want them to be. You have to remove or dump other sets that you have slotted, and then build to what you actually want. Your mileage may very on what you want to take out or keep for your new concept. Just for example if you want to go from botz to smash lethal defense, your build completely changes. If you are going from defense to high recharge, high regen, or high damage, its equally big. My own feeling is that Botz wasn't overpowered. The level of performance it provided could and still can be achieved by other means. It just provided a different way to get there. |
BotZ's benefits could be achieved by other means, that's true. However, to get there required a much more substantial investment in slots. THAT was the problem. Not that you couldn't get there, but that it was so much cheaper to do with BotZ. As someone else pointed out, to get there using other sets, you needed a 6-slotted power and a 5-slotted power. That was 9 additional slots on powers, as compared to the 2 that you needed for BotZ. That doesn't seem a little imbalanced to you?
The Devs aren't being unreasonable here, and I'm sorry that you feel that way, but it's not going to likely change their opinion that a respec is the only thing you're going to get.
Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.
~Ralph Waldo Emerson
"I was just the one with the most unsolicited sombrero." - Traegus
I have used the search feature trying to get "red name" or at least authoritative information that the Blessing of the Zephyr defensive bonuses are getting drastically reduced.
I don't know if it is true, a very solid rumor, or what.
I searched and searched with no luck, can someone please tell me if this is true, and if so what the new downgraded values will be? When will this be done? Are the developers making any allowances for "refunding" the cost of the IO?
Or point me out to a link, please, please?
Stormy
Please use the official thread linked in the post below. Thanks! -theOcho-