Ice control/earth assault, is it worth the time?
By
FreedomFighter,
Posted on: 2010-03-31 15:25 in Dominators
Farming, I don't think so right offhand. As far as playing and soloing, mine's doing all right, though still kind of a lowbie. Someone else will have to tell you about the upper levels. (Ice/ does pretty well, not sure how /earth goes.)
It's pretty decent for melee and single target SMASH! I wouldn't use it to farm though. Most of Ice/ powers work nicely in melee and so do /Earth.
Drop Ice slick, move into melee with Arctic Air running, Cast shiver when ever its recharged and you can handle +2/ X3 with just SOs.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
I have one at 50 with perma-dom and all that. It works pretty well for all the things mentioned. It's not the ultimate in anyway for farming but it can do it. With procs in AA and 2-3 aoes it works. Get some defenses too.
Ugh, Ice is the.worst.primary.ever. Seriously. You could color Earth crystals blue to look like Ice and you'll be happier. Earth is a much better set.
What makes Ice horrid:
1. Frostbite is a pretty useless AoE immobilize because it negates Ice Slick.
2. Arctic Air (aka Arctic Aggro) is a an end hog. Even 3 slotted with end reducers, it still hurts. It also needs the confuse proc to make it work correctly, which no power should wait 50 levels to be useable.
3. Shiver - a cone slow. Whoop-dee-do. Snore.
4. Flash Freeze - targetted AoE sleep. A useless power on AoE heavy teams and the PBAoE's included in Earth Assault will negate this as well.
5. Jack Frost - Arguably the dumbest pet. He enjoys over-aggroing entire rooms, then crumbles like a stale cookie.
The only descent powers in the set are the single target immobilize for AVs, and the single target and group holds - but all the control sets have them. Then there's Ice Slick. While a good soft control, it's function is duplicated in Earth control and the Earth counterpart is in better company with more solid controls. You'll also be gritting your teeth if another dom joins your team and spams their AoE immobs after you drop an Ice Slick.
So to summarize, 5 out of 9 powers in a set are pretty much useless, which makes Ice the bottom of the barrel when it comes to control sets.
Sure, Ice grants slows, which is a type of soft control. However, most people would like dead enemies over slo-mo ones.
Granted, Ice Control is nothing you'll be looking for for the traditional lockdown, but it can do the trick if you know how to.
1. Frostbite: You don't HAVE to use it on Ice Slick, right? That doesn't make it useless though. As you will probably know, Arctic Air causes enemies to run away from you (slowly but consistently). Frostbite can prevent them from doing that at any time while also providing a recharge debuff. Which brings us to
2. Arctic Air: While it may be true that AA gets A LOT better with the contageous confusion proc (I can't tell, my only Ice Control char - which is an Ice/Earth Dom - is only 40 so far), it'y not useless before that point. If you slot for Confuse Duration, you can pretty reliably Confuse the vast majority of the mob while they're busy falling on the floor. If they're not dead until Ice Slick's gone, they're confused and ready to shoot each other down.
3. Shiver: That's one power I'm not sure wether it's useful or not. I have it, but I guess I could do better things with my animation time. The Slows stacks nicely with all the rest of the powerset though.
4. Flash Freeze: Yeah, it does have the general problem of sleeps, but so do Earth and Mind (maybe more, I'm too lazy to look it up and can't remember right now). It's generally known that AoE Sleeps are for solo use only.
5. Jack Frost: He's dumb, true. Not sure what else to say, but he looks pretty cool. If the devs came around to giving him a better AI, he may become a valid Singy/Rocky Hybrid. Wouldn't ever skip control Set pets anyway, so you might as well get it.
In a whole: Ice Control needs a little time for its control to take effect. There are only three ways to mitigate an alpha, one of which is the AoE sleep and the other the AoE Hold (we all know AoE holds aren't that reliable for every-mob-control). That leaves us with Ice Slick. It's probably not a wise choice to pick Ice Control for no reason because it can indeed be frustrating, but if you can make it work for a concept and you like the toon it's really not as bad as common gossip.
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Artic Air + Shiver + Frostbite will keep +4 mobs at the -rech cap (75% which is the same as saying that enemy powers take 4 times as long to recharge) That's virtually identical to having 75% damage resistance (both cases reduce incoming damage by 75%)
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Originally Posted by Kilgoth
3. Shiver: That's one power I'm not sure wether it's useful or not. I have it, but I guess I could do better things with my animation time. The Slows stacks nicely with all the rest of the powerset though.
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-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Originally Posted by Mr_Heat_Stroke;
Then there's Ice Slick. While a good soft control, it's function is duplicated in Earth control and the Earth counterpart is in better company with more solid controls. You'll also be gritting your teeth if another dom joins your team and spams their AoE immobs after you drop an Ice Slick.
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Ice Slick actually has a 1% greater chance per tick to knockdown than Earthquake. That may not sound like a lot, but Ice Slick ticks at a rate of .2 seconds. After 2 seconds of activation, Earthquake has a 7*10 percent chance to hit, or 70%. Ice Slick has a 8*10%, or eighty percent.
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With "if you can survive the alpha strike" being the "virtual" difference... |
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Artic Air + Shiver + Frostbite will keep +4 mobs at the -rech cap (75% which is the same as saying that enemy powers take 4 times as long to recharge) That's virtually identical to having 75% damage resistance (both cases reduce incoming damage by 75%)
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If I quote #'s, they're from City of Data.
Global: @Kazari
It was either Taunt or Purple Triangles of Doom. I stand by my decision!
-BackAlleyBrawler
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Independent probabilities don't work that way.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Ice Slick actually has a 1% greater chance per tick to knockdown than Earthquake. That may not sound like a lot, but Ice Slick ticks at a rate of .2 seconds. After 2 seconds of activation, Earthquake has a 7*10 percent chance to hit, or 70%. Ice Slick has a 8*10%, or eighty percent.
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Ice Slick: (1-.08)^10 = 43% chance of missing all KB rolls.
Which means Ice Slick has a 57% chance of knocking down a given mob at least once in those 2 seconds.
Earthquake: (1-.07)^10 = 48% chance of missing all KB rolls.
So Earthquake's has a 52% chance of knocking down a given mob at least once in those 2 seconds.
If I quote #'s, they're from City of Data.
Global: @Kazari
It was either Taunt or Purple Triangles of Doom. I stand by my decision!
-BackAlleyBrawler
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That's what Ice Slick is for. You drop it to mitigate the alpha. Throw in shiver, close to melee and wait til AA takes hold then frostbite the spawn.|
Originally Posted by HacknSlash
With "if you can survive the alpha strike" being the "virtual" difference...
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At that point Ice Slick has done it's job, the +4s are at the -rech cap and all you have to do is Shiver and Frostbite every time they recharge and just smash the rest of the time.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Yes
Quote:
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Originally Posted by HacknSlash
Independent probabilities don't work that way.
Ice Slick: (1-.08)^10 = 43% chance of missing all KB rolls. Which means Ice Slick has a 57% chance of knocking down a given mob at least once in those 2 seconds. Earthquake: (1-.07)^10 = 48% chance of missing all KB rolls. So Earthquake's has a 52% chance of knocking down a given mob at least once in those 2 seconds. |
Oops. Well that's what Texas math gets you.
That's actually a huge mistake I made in some calculations a while back and no one has ever pointed them out. Thanks for taking the time to teach me to do basic math correctly.
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/disagree. I love the set. As others have made many of the same counters I would have, I'll just say "The set not clicking with you does not make it "the worst primary" by a long shot.
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Originally Posted by Mr_Heat_Stroke
Ugh, Ice is the.worst.primary.ever.
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So... if I continually maintain 4 powers from my primary on an entire spawn, I can get decent mitigation. Yay! [Ok, maintain 3, but I'm going for hyperbole here.]|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
That's what Ice Slick is for. You drop it to mitigate the alpha. Throw in shiver, close to melee and wait til AA takes hold then frostbite the spawn.
At that point Ice Slick has done it's job, the +4s are at the -rech cap and all you have to do is Shiver and Frostbite every time they recharge and just smash the rest of the time. |
The complexity of said task is representative of why I suggest that Ice seems decent as a controller primary, but not a particularly good one for dominators.
If I quote #'s, they're from City of Data.
Global: @Kazari
It was either Taunt or Purple Triangles of Doom. I stand by my decision!
-BackAlleyBrawler
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It's very good hyperbole. Last time I checked each primary had 9 powers in it. Ice/ must be pretty good if you only need to use 3 to provide maximum mitigation for both yourself and the team vs +4 mobs.|
Originally Posted by HacknSlash
So... if I continually maintain 4 powers from my primary on an entire spawn, I can get decent mitigation. Yay! [Ok, maintain 3, but I'm going for hyperbole here.]
The complexity of said task is representative of why I suggest that Ice seems decent as a controller primary, but not a particularly good one for dominators. |
You only need to cast ice slick once per spawn, the - rech in Shiver lasts 18 seconds, the -rech in frostbite lasts 15 seconds. 1 application of each of those powers (plus Arctic Air) is -135% to rech which keeps +4s (or lower con mobs with some slow resistance) just under the -rech cap.
Stacking Frostbite again keeps +4s at (over) the -rech cap. Since you can't slot for -rech (and doing so would be redundant if you could) you can 5 slot posi (every thing but the dam/range) and throw Crap of the Hunter proc into Frostbite and not only maintain your mitigation vs +4s but deal decent damage at the same time.
What's not to like about that?
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Quote:
If the dominator has sufficient mitigation to survive a 3.1+2.2+2.4=7.7 second setup time (not counting the "run into melee and let AA 'kick in' comment") while fighting +4's, then it's generally safe to say that the team already has enough mitigation that the 75% rch slow doesn't mean crap.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
It's very good hyperbole. Last time I checked each primary had 9 powers in it. Ice/ must be pretty good if you only need to use 3 to provide maximum mitigation for both yourself and the team vs +4 mobs.
You only need to cast ice slick once per spawn, the - rech in Shiver lasts 18 seconds, the -rech in frostbite lasts 15 seconds. 1 application of each of those powers (plus Arctic Air) is -135% to rech which keeps +4s (or lower con mobs with some slow resistance) just under the -rech cap. Stacking Frostbite again keeps +4s at (over) the -rech cap. Since you can't slot for -rech (and doing so would be redundant if you could) you can 5 slot posi (every thing but the dam/range) and throw Crap of the Hunter proc into Frostbite and not only maintain your mitigation vs +4s but deal decent damage at the same time. What's not to like about that? |
Also, Frostbite with 2 procs is not really "decent damage" for a dominator. Heck, Crushing Field with 3 procs wasn't "decent damage" *before* the buff, and procs do proportionally less damage now (admittedly a gigantic area of effect, though).
If I quote #'s, they're from City of Data.
Global: @Kazari
It was either Taunt or Purple Triangles of Doom. I stand by my decision!
-BackAlleyBrawler
Quote:
That's if you team. I don't have to team and yes 7.7 second set up time is nothing when I'm solo - pounding +4s. It's not only the -75% damage from the slows. It's also any resistances you have from any other souce like your PPP or even tough. Since the reduced damage from the -rech stacks with any other resistances you have you can cut the damage down even further. Add a few defense set bonuses and you have 3 layers of mitigation (4 if you go perma dom and get your mez protection permanently). You almost have to try to lose to get defeated.|
Originally Posted by HacknSlash
If the dominator has sufficient mitigation to survive a 3.1+2.2+2.4=7.7 second setup time (not counting the "run into melee and let AA 'kick in' comment") while fighting +4's, then it's generally safe to say that the team already has enough mitigation that the 75% rch slow doesn't mean crap.
Also, Frostbite with 2 procs is not really "decent damage" for a dominator. Heck, Crushing Field with 3 procs wasn't "decent damage" *before* the buff, and procs do proportionally less damage now (admittedly a gigantic area of effect, though). |
When I say decent damage from the procs that's what I mean. Any time the IOs proc I get free damage from a power that I'm using for mitigation that typically does very little damage and many Doms skip. Since Ice/Earth is mostly single target oriented I can ignore minions and just use my single target hold on lieutenants while I concentrate on the boss(es). Try running hero stats sometime. You'd be surprised just how much damage you add with those 2 "tiny" procs precisely because the area of effect is large and the power recharges quickly.
By the time the bosses are down the minions are also down just from colateral damage from Frostbite, the procs, Tremor and Fissure. The lieutenants are down to 1/3 or so remaining health at that point and are easily picked off.
No it's not a farming build but it gives you the ability to hang fire with a single target squishy and still come out on top.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
I rolled an Ice control earth assault dom with the idea of a frost giant kind of toon. Played it a wee bit I am now wondering, is this a build that is worth spending time and effort to level ? Does it play well? soloable? Farmable?
Thanks for your thoughts.