Tale of two cities or Why I don't PVP (Sorry just ranting)
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-03-26 17:59 in Suggestions and Ideas
<qr>
there is a ton of bad info in this thread. I don't have the time to do my normal break down. I will hit a few key points real quick.
They did change to much at once.
It was not aimed at beginner pvpers, it was aimed at people who did not pvp at all, which is where the biggest problem comes in.
It was aimed at bringing high end io builds down closer to people who did not spend the time to gear. Sounds nice, but it played out horribly. Now the difference between a top end build and even a mediocre build is insane. You either have the loot or you are toast now.
It was also aimed at making all sets more balanced and viable. Also a huge failure. Some sets were so messed up as to the point of being laughable. I am looking at you ice blast.
These changes were also made so the first time pvper could load into a zone the first time and 'stand a chance'. This has not happened at all. A beginner pvper has almost no chance at knowing what is going on. There is no detailed info any where in game telling you pve and pvp rules are completely different. No mention of dr or heal decay. They should have armed people with better knowledge than dumb the system down.
If anyone feels like it they can post over in the pvp forums and have a convo about any of this feel free. I just figured I would pipe in with some actual real pvp facts and truths.
And I kinda loled @ the if it came from macskull comment. There are plenty of people around who have the time in to comment on any pvp topic that aren't him. Not knocking mac, just saying there are other people out there that people should and can listen to as well.
Duel me.
I will work on my sig pic more when I have time.
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
The only thing they DID succeed in doing (IMO) is new players have a bit more of a fighting chance now than they used to. Since you will generally live long enough to get a few attacks off and move around a bit, someone new to PvP has a chance to learn what works and what doesn't.......as opposed to the old PvP where if you didn't pick it up in seconds flat you were doomed to be frustrated by your inability to do much of anything.
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Absolutely not. They did NOT increase new players having a fighting chance at all. Those new players have to invest tons into IOs to stand a chance, and it is tactics and skill combined with your build that will make you good now, instead of just tactics and skill. So it is one more aspect that a "newb" has to garner.
Travel Suppression really ruined it because now there is virtually no escape in a fight, where was a before they could run, and through minor experience figure out what worked. That +res in zones is absolutely retarded, we might as well just do away with ATs and everyone should be limited to playing one AT with the same power sets and slots. In PvP 1.0 you could roll virtually ANYTHING and be fine in zone. Now? lol. The way they changed Mezz's absolutely F'd controllers/defenders. Rads/kins in particular took a huge hit. Even though it's been so long I STILL think they should revert back to the old system. Everyone turns off Heal Decay/TS in arena anyway. That in itself should be a frickin sign.
The whole "new people" can pvp argument is about as smart as a diced carrot. We lost like 90% of the PvP population! In all regards the implementation of PvP 2.0 was a failure because CoX lost a ton of prescriptions. That is their end goal, not making us happy, and they still failed.
Pretty much everything Conflict said is right on.
"PvP Messiah"
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Oh, yeah, I know that. Mac's just the one I tend to see most out "in the wild" here. Not meant to knock on the other PVPers that give out good info (without being twits about it - and no, not saying you're being one here.) Just using him as an example.
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Originally Posted by ConFlict
And I kinda loled @ the if it came from macskull comment. There are plenty of people around who have the time in to comment on any pvp topic that aren't him. Not knocking mac, just saying there are other people out there that people should and can listen to as well.
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... and absolutely none if you take Teleport (or try to use Dwarf form as a Kheld.)
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Originally Posted by Cold_X
Travel Suppression really ruined it because now there is virtually no escape in a fight,
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You're comparing rock/paper/scissors in an FPS to rock/paper/scissors in an MMO (and yes, the second exists). It's a bit more confusing when you realize all these things are being added into the equation, but you could usually say "these builds are good counters to this build," which might mean you've found the scissors to someone's paper. At the same time, there are other builds that might counter that build, which means you've found the rock to that scissors. It's not as cut-and-dry as that, obviously, but that's the idea.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
For a game balanced around teaming (that I've actually played), I'll point to Battlefield 2142. That was, in a lot of senses, kind of like rock/paper/scissors, with some overlap. Engineers beat vehicles, vehicles beat infantry, infantry beats engineers. Assaults beat supports on offence, supports beat assaults on defence, spec-ops beat both through other means, but not directly. Thing is, City of Heroes and, really, any RPG with enough variety to count, is more like rock, paper, scissors, water, saw, vice, pliers, fire, cloud, plasma torch and machinegun. There are too many advantages, too many disadvantages and too many combinations that leave gaping holes in both offence and defence. You're going to end up with idea team compositions, and that just loops the problem all around.
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The problem with the "this counters this, that counters that" line of thinking is that teaming can (well, could) close many of the holes. Of course that led to relatively rigid team makeups, but that was almost always only the case in higher-end arena matches such as leagues on test or the various live servers. A hero jump team might have two Emps, a Rad, a Kin, a Sonic, and 3 Blasters, while a villain jump team might have two Therms, a Sonic, a Kin, a Stalker or two, an MM or two, and maybe a Dom for the extra damage and mezzes. The team compositions I just listed were what was preferred as a "standard" team, but there were many counters to such a lineup (Storm teams for example). These days the average arena team is 2 Emps, a Rad, 4-5 Blasters, and maybe one spot for disruption (Brute/TA/whatever). There's really no such thing as an "ideal team makeup" outside of arena, because most of what you find in zones will be Scrappers, Tankers, and Stalkers because the post-I13 ruleset heavily favors melee characters in terms of survivability.
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| Balanced, fair PvP requires a certain amount of simplicity that can allow for player interaction to be predictable and accountable for. In PvE, player-NPC interaction is easily predictable because you always know what the NPCs bring to bear, so you can design the difficulty of the encounter around that. But in PvP, you can't design every set or every team composition to be decent against every other one. And while some may find this acceptable, being killed with a massive handicap IS NOT FUN for me. |
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| Back to Battlefield, I realise that, having picked the Assault kit, I'm not going to do much against a tank. It's balanced... But it's not fun at the same time. I can hide from it for a LONG time, but what the hell would that accomplish? Eventually I get bored, rush the thing, get instakilled and respawn as an engineer. I can't quite respawn my Blaster as a Scrapper, though. |
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| Certain people enjoy lopsided, unfair, unbalanced PvP because of the unpredictability it presents. But this is both NOT like the PvP game and NOT everyone's cup of tea. And being of the position I am, I'm more inclined to side with people who share my preference. |
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Thank you for saying everything that I also felt compelled to say mac.
Why does Samuel keep talking?
"PvP Messiah"
I dont PvP.
I did. but i got bored through the lack of PvPers, the lack of rolling battles in favour of one on one fights (i likes my flashy flashies everywhere) and, the lack of pvpers....
I enjoy a good player versus player game. competition is good and if your opponent doesnt take it too seriously either then you can have a good laugh (I did have a stalker follow my blaster for a looooong time trying to get revenge for a long range kill I made and then get very insulting when I started to leave to join a TF I was booked in for... that wasnt fun. Nor was the constant stream of insults until I agreed to "stand and fight", I'm a blaster you moron, I dont stand and fight, I snipe and move). so, I dont play PvP in coX anymore, but I've been a quake PvPer since its release, I still play battlefield and LFD2 versus, I've played most FPS PvP games out there. CoX PvP is NOT anything like other PvP games.
No offense to the PvPers but I find it to be more about number crunching and grinding to get purples than it is about skill or tactics. Just my opinion, you may disagree freely and please feel free to convince me otherwise. For example: Quake, you have shotty no armour on DM4, your opponent has lightning gun and red armour. By the numbers , you shouldnt win but you can (and I have, barely, but i did 
). Skill and luck comes into play and this is missing in CoX pvp imho.
Yes, ATs are imbalanced. they're supposed to be. Team fortress ATs are imbalanced but thats why the word TEAM is in the name. you need a mix to be all round, a whole team of snipers wont do much against a team made up of a mix of soldier, spy and Demos. similarly, a scrapper will (generally) wipe a blaster in toe to tow combat but will get owned in a ranged fight. Teaming is the answer. cover your weakness by hidign it behind someone else
Skill and Luck:
PvP has an element of skill and luck. however, luck is pretty much reduced to a minimum, not by skill, but by slotting and power picking. Skill, apart from lining up attack chains, I dotn see that much scope for skill. This isnt twitch based combat. you press tab to aim and your power hits that person. Cover doesnt mean anything except before or after a fight. In fact, cover is a disadvantage because you cant attack from cover but the enemy still know you're there if you are being targetted.
My suggestion: remove targetting from PvP. make it line of sight. make it more twitch based (ok, not 100% twitch but perhaps hit radius. target radius of power + hit radius of target overlap, then that is the target that gets attacked, tanks would have a large hit radius to simulate their taunt ability, stalkers would have a very low radius). Maybe some powers could be given a target-lock effect where they just target the nearest enemy whoever that happens to be.
that , for me, would re-introduce a lot of the unpredictability of the PvP experience and a lot of the excitement. And, yes, make changes so a squishy's main power isnt "super-squish" or "nuclear faceplant". Skill and luck are one thing (well, two things) but even they wont help if the numbers are stacked agaisnt you from the start.
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I keep seeing this come up, again and again. |
Originally Posted by macskull
Lopsided, unfair, and unbalanced PvP (what we have now) isn't unpredictable. In zones, combat can be summarized as "I'm attacked so I'm slowed, I'm taking damage and can't heal it back, and now I'm dead." In team arena matches, combat can be summarized as "I think I'm the spike tar-- wait, I'm dead." In short, with rare exceptions, the side that has more damage, or more people, is going to win almost every time because the I13 ruleset heavily favors damage and numbers. It used to be that a one or two-person group could hold their own against a larger number provided they were good at the game and their opponents weren't, but that simply isn't the case anymore.
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"Prior to i13 One person could take on three people if he had skill"
This honestly makes no sense in a game balanced around numbers where characters auto-turn, auto-aim, and hit based on random generation of numbers. What are these skills you're speaking of?
In a straight FPS game skill is in how finely you control your character handicapped by how good or bad your ping/lag issues are. If you can't turn your avatar at the correct speed to line up a shot or lead a target then you're going to miss.
In WoW there's even some modicum of skill to PvP as you have to shift yourself out of a player's forward arc if you want half their attacks to stop hitting you (Must be Facing Target)
In CoH you press an attack power, the game turns you automatically towards whoever your target is, and you fire the attack based on a number randomizer to hit the target. Where is this vaunted skill?
Is it based on Kiting melee enemies around corners? Setting up an AS before your enemy bounces away (don't play stalkers much, but when I do I've noticed that once the AS animation starts nothing short of the enemy turning a corner will protect it, no matter how far away it runs)? Getting your mez powers off, first? Oh! Oh! I know! It's utilizing cover to avoid attacks, right?
PLEASE give us some qualifiers of this "Skill" all PvPers refer to! If I knew what skills I needed to work on to -be- a better PvPer I'd try more often! But in every PvP thread I've participated in all of my comments are swept under the rug in favor of the "You don't PvP ergo you don't understand and no I won't deign to explain. LoLPvECarebear"
Well teach us Carebear Fluffbunny PvEers what it is that makes you so much better at PvP than us! Why is it Fair and Balanced gameplay if a solo scrapper can take down 2-3 enemies in a straight fight but imbalanced when the rules favor a larger group of people? It's just like an FPS in that sense, save that aiming and lag aren't factored in due to the randomizer which in turn gives everyone the same amount of "Aiming" skill, regardless of how long they've been playing.
-Rachel-
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There's a big problem with that. |
Originally Posted by Evangel
My suggestion: remove targetting from PvP. make it line of sight. make it more twitch based (ok, not 100% twitch but perhaps hit radius. target radius of power + hit radius of target overlap, then that is the target that gets attacked, tanks would have a large hit radius to simulate their taunt ability, stalkers would have a very low radius). Maybe some powers could be given a target-lock effect where they just target the nearest enemy whoever that happens to be. |
The way the game engine appears to work. Currently the only powers that function without targeting are PBAoEs and Location AoE powers.
If you wanted to remove targeting fom PvP, you would have to put in an entirely seperate code for how powers themselves actually function.
As it is now, the effects of the powers might be different than in PvE, but they still WORK the same. You target something and fire your power, the computer then calculates your to-hit chance based on a number of variables, and you either hit or you don't. That's how it works in PvE, and that's how it works in PvP. It is one of the ONLY things between the two that remains constant.
That would make defense based powersets COMPLETELY useless, as opposed to the mostly useless they are now. If there is no to-hit roll made, there is nothing for defense to do, basically causing Super Reflexes, Shields, Ice Armor, Energy Aura, half of Willpower, most of Stone Armor, and part of Invulnerability to literally no longer exist in PvP.
Changing something THAT integral to how the game actually works would not be a solution to the PvP problem. The biggest complaint about PvP as it is now is that powers don't work the same as in PvE. Imagine how upset people would be if TARGETING didn't even work the same.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I never understood what they were thinking in making PvP easier for new players to stand a chance in. You make it easier for them but now no one wants to PvP anymore. What a shot in the foot that was, and now they're taking their sweet time fixing it. Diminishing returns was the worst move I've ever seen in an MMO, I'm still disappointed in the devs for that one... smh.
@.MIDAS
BIG BROTHER MIDAS, Ice/Ice Dominator, 1314 Badges
* Any toon you see with Midas in the name is probably me
*
some good points I hadnt taken into consideration there. So, off th etop of my head how about:
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Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
There's a big problem with that.
The way the game engine appears to work. Currently the only powers that function without targeting are PBAoEs and Location AoE powers. If you wanted to remove targeting fom PvP, you would have to put in an entirely seperate code for how powers themselves actually function. |
yep. and I'm going to flippantly respond that, judging how much work and effort has gone in so far to balancing PvP, perhaps the time has come to take that hardest of decisions and call it the fools errand that it is and make the resolution that, if there is to be effective PvP, we need to change the way the powers work. I do realise how breezy that answer is, believe me. Its not as easy as it sounds. But thats the solution I see.
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| As it is now, the effects of the powers might be different than in PvE, but they still WORK the same. You target something and fire your power, the computer then calculates your to-hit chance based on a number of variables, and you either hit or you don't. That's how it works in PvE, and that's how it works in PvP. It is one of the ONLY things between the two that remains constant. |
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| That would make defense based powersets COMPLETELY useless, as opposed to the mostly useless they are now. If there is no to-hit roll made, there is nothing for defense to do, basically causing Super Reflexes, Shields, Ice Armor, Energy Aura, half of Willpower, most of Stone Armor, and part of Invulnerability to literally no longer exist in PvP. |
Resistance: if you get hit, the damage is reduced.
Defense: stops you getting hit.
So, resistance can stay as it is. Defense though would reduce your "hit profile" making you a smaller target against attack types.
eg: Tanker Bob has a hit profile radius of 5ft , each 20% defense vs an attack type reduces this radius by 1ft to a minimum of the current cap.
Alternatively, the roll to hit still takes place, its the "who gets targetted" that is decided by the hit profile overlapping with the attack profile. Once the target is determined, the roll to hit is made as normal.
Fast moving targets would be harder to hit than a standing target. A tank could step infront of an incoming fireball or "crowd" a blaster so all attacks have to hit the tank. Blasters, trollers etc would have to move for position. Keeping you sniper free to find position could be the difference between winning and losing a fight.
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| Changing something THAT integral to how the game actually works would not be a solution to the PvP problem. The biggest complaint about PvP as it is now is that powers don't work the same as in PvE. Imagine how upset people would be if TARGETING didn't even work the same. |
steampunkette's post above about autoturn + auto aim is pretty much what I was saying too.
Er... a *third* massive powers change into something massively different *yet again* isn't what I'd call a great fix idea.
Just sayin'.
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So in other words, you want to make PvP physically impossible for people who lack the hand-eye coordination and reflexes to play FPS games? |
Originally Posted by Evangel
And the changes to PvP almost killed it completely. so, PvP wont work the same as PvE. PvP wont work as a half ***** "fix" cos players wont play it. so option 3, re-invent the underlying feature to change the gameplay to more closely align with popular and successful PvP games, ie: twitch + skill + luck + tactics.
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As it is now, hand-eye coordination isn't even a factor in your PvP performance becaue the game targets for you. And anyone that can click a mouse can attack someone successfully.
It wouldn't even be CoH PvP, it would be a completely different game that PvE players would be even LESS prepared to learn, because NOTHING would have any parallel between PvP and PvE.
Sure, lets make the PvP learning curve even steeper than it is already, that'll be sure to draw more players in.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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i'm going to stop you right here. please do not post any more on changes for PvP. your changes will over complicate it and make it actually less likely for new players to compete. i think we should just wait and see what changes occur down the road. maybe, just maybe, Castle learned from this and will make changes that will better suit the community as a whole.
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Originally Posted by Evangel
some good points I hadnt taken into consideration there. So, off th etop of my head how about:
[/I] yep. and I'm going to flippantly respond that, judging how much work and effort has gone in so far to balancing PvP, perhaps the time has come to take that hardest of decisions and call it the fools errand that it is and make the resolution that, if there is to be effective PvP, we need to change the way the powers work. I do realise how breezy that answer is, believe me. Its not as easy as it sounds. But thats the solution I see. agree with you completely there. I still think this needs to be changed for PvP to be effective. Not necessarily: Resistance: if you get hit, the damage is reduced. Defense: stops you getting hit. So, resistance can stay as it is. Defense though would reduce your "hit profile" making you a smaller target against attack types. eg: Tanker Bob has a hit profile radius of 5ft , each 20% defense vs an attack type reduces this radius by 1ft to a minimum of the current cap. Alternatively, the roll to hit still takes place, its the "who gets targetted" that is decided by the hit profile overlapping with the attack profile. Once the target is determined, the roll to hit is made as normal. Fast moving targets would be harder to hit than a standing target. A tank could step infront of an incoming fireball or "crowd" a blaster so all attacks have to hit the tank. Blasters, trollers etc would have to move for position. Keeping you sniper free to find position could be the difference between winning and losing a fight. And the changes to PvP almost killed it completely. so, PvP wont work the same as PvE. PvP wont work as a half ***** "fix" cos players wont play it. so option 3, re-invent the underlying feature to change the gameplay to more closely align with popular and successful PvP games, ie: twitch + skill + luck + tactics. steampunkette's post above about autoturn + auto aim is pretty much what I was saying too. |
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Not sure if your post is pure snark or a general question, but I will assume the latter and try to answer:|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
I keep seeing this come up, again and again.
"Prior to i13 One person could take on three people if he had skill" This honestly makes no sense in a game balanced around numbers where characters auto-turn, auto-aim, and hit based on random generation of numbers. What are these skills you're speaking of? In a straight FPS game skill is in how finely you control your character handicapped by how good or bad your ping/lag issues are. If you can't turn your avatar at the correct speed to line up a shot or lead a target then you're going to miss. In WoW there's even some modicum of skill to PvP as you have to shift yourself out of a player's forward arc if you want half their attacks to stop hitting you (Must be Facing Target) In CoH you press an attack power, the game turns you automatically towards whoever your target is, and you fire the attack based on a number randomizer to hit the target. Where is this vaunted skill? Is it based on Kiting melee enemies around corners? Setting up an AS before your enemy bounces away (don't play stalkers much, but when I do I've noticed that once the AS animation starts nothing short of the enemy turning a corner will protect it, no matter how far away it runs)? Getting your mez powers off, first? Oh! Oh! I know! It's utilizing cover to avoid attacks, right? PLEASE give us some qualifiers of this "Skill" all PvPers refer to! If I knew what skills I needed to work on to -be- a better PvPer I'd try more often! But in every PvP thread I've participated in all of my comments are swept under the rug in favor of the "You don't PvP ergo you don't understand and no I won't deign to explain. LoLPvECarebear" Well teach us Carebear Fluffbunny PvEers what it is that makes you so much better at PvP than us! Why is it Fair and Balanced gameplay if a solo scrapper can take down 2-3 enemies in a straight fight but imbalanced when the rules favor a larger group of people? It's just like an FPS in that sense, save that aiming and lag aren't factored in due to the randomizer which in turn gives everyone the same amount of "Aiming" skill, regardless of how long they've been playing. -Rachel- |
The Skills necessary in CoH PvP were very similar to FPS minus one (Aiming). In a FPS, be it Console (MW2, Halo, etC) or PC (Counterstrike, quake, etc) Key things that defined skill were:
Speed
Evasion
Decision making
In CoH PvP, The speed part is fairly obvious. How fast do you notice that you're taking damage? If you're support, How fast do you notice your teammates taking damage and react to it?
Evasion, Do you always take sneaky routes when you are trying to zero in on your target? Do you find yourself dying very quickly in the middle of an arena map or zone? When you are attacked, do you have the ability to get away while still keeping yourself in the fight?
Decision making: This is sorta of a generic area but it would fall into "What insps to bring and when to use them" and "Which targets are the highest priorty to kill" and "Their team is defending this area REALLY well, how can I use that to my advantage.
In i12 PvP, I could be on an empath and Slax could be on a blaster and we could go upagainst a bunch of villains and just roll over a larger team. We could pull this off because our decision making was a lot better than theirs. 9/10 while zone PvPing, I would never get attacked on my empath. Decision making is an obvious skill people need...but its often overlooked.
To often, people will armchair analize the old PvP without really understanding it. Its easy to say "Wow, I just died in less than a second...this sucks" or to suggest changes that make it easier for you to not die in less than a second. Where true skill gets developed is when you learn from your defeats and try to get better.
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I'll try and pick out the questions in your post and answer them. I'm not trying to be rude here, so I apologize in advance if I come across as such. Much of what I'm going to list here isn't nearly as applicable as it was before I13, but it's still there for you to consider.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
I keep seeing this come up, again and again.
"Prior to i13 One person could take on three people if he had skill" This honestly makes no sense in a game balanced around numbers where characters auto-turn, auto-aim, and hit based on random generation of numbers. What are these skills you're speaking of? |
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In a straight FPS game skill is in how finely you control your character handicapped by how good or bad your ping/lag issues are. If you can't turn your avatar at the correct speed to line up a shot or lead a target then you're going to miss. In WoW there's even some modicum of skill to PvP as you have to shift yourself out of a player's forward arc if you want half their attacks to stop hitting you (Must be Facing Target) In CoH you press an attack power, the game turns you automatically towards whoever your target is, and you fire the attack based on a number randomizer to hit the target. Where is this vaunted skill? |
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Is it based on Kiting melee enemies around corners? Setting up an AS before your enemy bounces away (don't play stalkers much, but when I do I've noticed that once the AS animation starts nothing short of the enemy turning a corner will protect it, no matter how far away it runs)? Getting your mez powers off, first? Oh! Oh! I know! It's utilizing cover to avoid attacks, right? PLEASE give us some qualifiers of this "Skill" all PvPers refer to! If I knew what skills I needed to work on to -be- a better PvPer I'd try more often! But in every PvP thread I've participated in all of my comments are swept under the rug in favor of the "You don't PvP ergo you don't understand and no I won't deign to explain. LoLPvECarebear" |
You do mention that you don't play Stalkers much, which seems to be the common thread between all the people that either complain about them in zones or call them "easymode" characters (not saying you are, just making a point). Getting an AS off is much easier now than it was prior to I13 thanks to the mez and travel suppression changes, but if there's no one around that can mez a target you need to get pretty good at trailing a target until they stand still for even a tiny amount of time, or predict where they'll land when they get locked into an animation mid-jump. Try playing a Stalker and consistently being able to AS a target that is aware you're there and is taking steps to counter you (i.e. moving) - it's not that easy even now.
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| Well teach us Carebear Fluffbunny PvEers what it is that makes you so much better at PvP than us! Why is it Fair and Balanced gameplay if a solo scrapper can take down 2-3 enemies in a straight fight but imbalanced when the rules favor a larger group of people? It's just like an FPS in that sense, save that aiming and lag aren't factored in due to the randomizer which in turn gives everyone the same amount of "Aiming" skill, regardless of how long they've been playing. |
@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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I used to be very good at surviving against a number of opponents on my claws/regen scrapper. I didn't get very many kills, but it was damn hard to kill me. It was a little different against a team that was used to working together. Very few solo players could take on a dedicated PvP team and hold their own, in fact I can count on one hand the number of times I've seen someone do it for any length of time. I was never that good, but I could take on a group of disorganized people in a zone and survive for quite a while. Mind you, they always got me eventually, but I made them work for it. |
Originally Posted by macskull
Simply put, if a player was good at inspiration management, evasion, and target prioritization, they could potentially survive against larger numbers of players who weren't good at those things. For example, you hear all this crap about Emp/Blaster duos ruling zones pre-I13. However, once a few players showed up that knew what they were doing (i.e. running the Emp out of Breakfrees or just sticking on them long enough to get the kill, and then making short work of the unbuffed Blaster), those players would be in for a rough time. These days, if the other side has more people, regardless of whether they're good, and you don't have phase/Hibernate up, you'll probably die because you'll get slowed and won't be able to heal. Essentially they changed the focus from skill to build and numbers.
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That changed with I13 PvP changes.
Now, against one opponent without much in the way of debuffs I'm nearly impossible to kill, but as soon as more players start showing up my chances of surviving drop dramatically, no matter what they're playing.
Skill is still a factor, but it's not as critical a factor as it used to be.
(For the record, I am aware that I'm not the greatest PvPer, but I do make a claim to a modest amount of skill)
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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It was an actual, honest to God, question. Just tempered with snark because, as I stated, all I ever got before when asking it was insults about being a noob or carebear.|
Originally Posted by EmpireForgotten
Not sure if your post is pure snark or a general question, but I will assume the latter and try to answer:
The Skills necessary in CoH PvP were very similar to FPS minus one (Aiming). In a FPS, be it Console (MW2, Halo, etC) or PC (Counterstrike, quake, etc) Key things that defined skill were: Speed Evasion Decision making |
Speed, Evasion, and Decision making. These are three skills that I can understand as important in PvP pre-i13. Especially as you've described them!
However... From the armchair observer's standpoint, allow me to expound on the problems of two of those three skills?
Speed is generally not a skill a person learns. It's an innate ability. Of both the player and of the computer they're on. Though I do admit a person can become faster in their reaction times to specific set stimuli. So it's FEASIBLE that a person could come to the point where they've the ability to react to an Assassin Strike that drops them to 1 HP before they get killed by some other method. However that still puts a pretty huge gate on PvP of needing a computer and connection which don't lag out for that fraction of a second before you get killed. Otherwise a single spike of damage can wipe anyone out.
Evasion is, generally, a method to drag a fight out longer, nothing more. I -did- run some pre-i13 PvP way back when. I believe it was in Bloody Bay where my team of Villains held the tower above the longbow/hero base for almost an hour. It was a lot of fun for everyone, since we held the tower without attacking anyone who didn't come after us. in the end we were finally "Done in" by a couple of Tankers who taunted the group before dropping to ground level while their blaster and defender friends dropped us with tar patches and fiery death from above. This is evasion. The tankers evaded our attacks by blocking Line Of Sight while we were unable to fight their support and caused our death that way. Most of what you discussed under "Evasion" in your post was actually Stealth. Actual Evasion, as I've seen it in PvP tends to be "Assassin Strike! Super Jump! Flee!!" or as I like to call them "Killer Bunnies" and "Ninja Bunnies"
And I'll offer a suggestion for "Decision Making" Call it "Critical Thinking" instead. Everyone makes decisions in combat. But thinking critically is something not all do.
So it actually requires four skills, based on your comments.
Stealth
Reaction Time
Critical Thinking
Evasion
-Usually- in the order I've listed them. Stealth to your target (whether with a power or just using LoS blocking geometry) Attack them faster than their Reaction Time allows and/or React to changing circumstance (I.E. an ally you didn't see unstealthing, someone hitting you hard enough to make survival a question, etc.) Think over the situation Critically (weigh options, determine targets) and repeat these three steps until either you succeed or the situation becomes untenable, at which point you Evade the enemy.
Would this be a safe example of the Skills of PvP?
I can see how the first one could be considered a skill for those who do not use stealth-powers to move about. And even for them it could be a worthwhile skill.
The second one seems less of a skill and more of a trait of both player and apparatus.
The third is definitely a skill that more people should learn.
The fourth is basically fleeing. And while I admit it can be done skillfully (using cover) pre-i13 it was done almost exclusively through character speed (Killer Bunnies!) which rendered skill almost entirely moot.
Under the i13 rules Reaction Time is less important, generally speaking. There's less of a minimum requirement and lag doesn't kill nearly as often, since two-shotting players is a LOT harder now that damage res is an inherent of all ATs. Though I'll also note that Evasion can now only be DONE through skill, rather than via character speed, thanks to travel suppression.
So under i13 more players with a wider range of computers and motor skills can get into PvP (based on reaction time/lag/damage resistance) and it takes a skilled player to evade an enemy (rather than just popping super-jump or super-speed to flee)
Based on your original three skills and my expanded four skills shouldn't PvP be more accessible to newblets and require -more- skill and less bunny-hopping to evade? I imagine that's why the Devs put in the changes. Because, based on your suggested skill requirements, they lowered the bar on getting -in- while raising the bar on getting out. Critical Thinking and Stealth are still just as important, however.
Thank you, by the way, for discussing this with me in an open and honest fashion. It is -deeply- appreciated.
-Rachel-
Won't quote since it's a big post, but I'd like to comment on a couple items
I do think your list is a good description of what I was getting at. When I refer to speed and reaction time as a 'skill' I'm describing a different level of ability. For example, brady quinn is a less skilled quarterback than peyton manning.
I disagree with the new PvP requiring more skill to evade, but I can see how it may seem like it.
In the Old PvP, if you were on a team playing a squishy, it was important to keep mez protection up. Surviving while keeping critical CM on other squishies was important to emping. Most of the time, the emp didn't have a secondary supporter in zones, so you needed to manage your breakfrees and decide when to use them. Its Bam bam bam and you had 2-3 decisions to make each second "Who to heal" "2 people? who has to wait? Can I save them both? If I can't whose more important?" The new PvP, expecially in zones, its a lemming fest. More people die. The Skill of survival is gone (Survival being a Generic term combining your four critical areas).
I could go on, but its getting close to the end of the day - Ill check back another day and eleborate more if you would like. Also, there are a lot of helpful PvP forum goers (Moreso than what you might expect) so they might chime in here sometime over the weekend.
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You can't evade anymore, that's the thing. Travel suppression means you get slowed when you're attacked. Mez changes mean you're held for 2-4 (and god help you if you get tagged with a stun) seconds without being able to do anything, during which time you could - and likely will - be killed.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
and it takes a skilled player to evade an enemy
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Prior to I13, a person who was aware of their surroundings could get themselves out of a bad situation by breaking line of sight or by getting out of range, and then deciding the best route to get back to their support before the other team could get to them. Even today in travel suppression-off team arena matches, you'll find some Blasters are targeted more often than others simply because they're not good at evasion. The point is to make yourself a difficult target, and the travel suppression/mez changes remove much of that ability. If you're outnumbered on a squishy and phase/Hibernate isn't up, you probably will die unless you get lucky.
One of the biggest complaints about the changes was that it took several strategies which required critical thinking skills or teaming to counter and simply made them un-counterable (mezzes are the best example of this - anyone who thinks the I13 mez system is fair has probably not been tagged with a random hold and been killed before it wears off).
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"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
Balanced, fair PvP requires a certain amount of simplicity that can allow for player interaction to be predictable and accountable for. In PvE, player-NPC interaction is easily predictable because you always know what the NPCs bring to bear, so you can design the difficulty of the encounter around that. But in PvP, you can't design every set or every team composition to be decent against every other one. And while some may find this acceptable, being killed with a massive handicap IS NOT FUN for me.
Back to Battlefield, I realise that, having picked the Assault kit, I'm not going to do much against a tank. It's balanced... But it's not fun at the same time. I can hide from it for a LONG time, but what the hell would that accomplish? Eventually I get bored, rush the thing, get instakilled and respawn as an engineer. I can't quite respawn my Blaster as a Scrapper, though.
Certain people enjoy lopsided, unfair, unbalanced PvP because of the unpredictability it presents. But this is both NOT like the PvP game and NOT everyone's cup of tea. And being of the position I am, I'm more inclined to side with people who share my preference.
Tanks were tough. Squishies were squishie. Before they went into DR, they should of gone through some smaller changes first.
For example, the non damage toggles not getting detoggled. A perfect time to see how that changed PvP before alot of the other changes they added in.
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