Martial Arts or Super Strength?

I realise this sounds like something I should put in one of the AT forums, but there's a reason I'm putting it here in Roleplaying. Basically, it's a question of whether it's better to use the Martial Arts powerset or the actual Super Strength powerset to depcit the nimble, fast and precise application of super-human strength. But since I'm far too long-winded, let me give you a bit of background on the character in question. We'll call her Crash for short.

Crash is, to put it as simply as possible, an almost indestructible, enormously strong cyborg built to the shape of a relatively small young woman. She has enough strength and stability to take on any of the big bads, but her approach to strength is not at all the "Hulk smash!" variant, but rather more one of measured strength applied through technique and speed. For instance, when opposing someone with a shield, she will not attempt to simply pound on the shield until it or the arm holding it caves in, but will rather attempt to knock it away or at least push it off to the side.

Years ago when I made the character, the choice was simple - Martial Arts. With a bit of imagination, I could claim Martial Arts was actually using superior strength, but in a technical way and I was happy with it. Even happier when more punches made it into the set, as it gave it an ever so slightly stronger look than the "Hay-yah!" kicks it used to have. Super Strength, by comparison, was comprised of uncoordinated swings of fat, meaty arms, stomping feet and flailing motion. In essence, the thick head's guide to super strength. Ideal for my giant rampaging robot, but not so idea for my petite strong-girl. In the time since I made her, I've gotten her to 50, but these days I'm starting to wonder...

I had a look at some of the Super Strength customization options recently, customizing the aforementioned giant robot, and while the new moves really didn't work for his bulky, fat frame, they did get me to wonder... Won't these actually look a lot better on a smaller, faster character? Sure enough, testing them on a remake of Crash's costume, I discovered that they very much did. Both Punch and Jab can be replaced with strikes that are less musclebound strong man and more... Well, lighter fighter. And those were easily the biggest offenders. I could live with Haymaker, but that's a nice cross, too. Knockout Blow's animation, despite not looking right with far super arms, does actually look pretty cool with a smaller-framde character, and Ground Punch is just AMAZING! Practically speaking, a fully customized Super Strength character no longer feels like the Incredible Hulk's stunt double and more like just what I was asking for - a stout, strong fighter.

But that kind of makes me wonder, and by extension makes me ask - would switching over to Super Strength if/when this becomes available actually make sense conceptually? Sure, the concept itself is that of a super strong fighter, but even with the custom animations, won't losing the kicks and the grace of Martial Arts ruin such a concept? Can you guys ever see Super Strength in any incarnation as being appropriate for a small, fast, agile character? Granted, I've always envisioned Crash as having enough force behind her fist to punch a clean hole into tank armour, but I've never really envisioned her making shockwaves by clapping her hands really hard. That's something the Thing would do. Not necessarily something Wonder Woman would, however.

Staying with Martial Arts, however, concerns me equally so. Outside of the set's mechanics, the concept is a bit iffy. Even with the kicks replaced by punches wherever possible, it still feels... Underpowered. The set's whole design relies on skill before strength, faster precision strikes and generally more finesse, where I still want a certain degree of confidence in the act of delivering that decisive, devastating punch.

To a certain extent, I'm not sure what I really want, so I really wanted to ask what you think. Would Super Strength or Martial Arts be more appropriate for a really strong, really agile cyborg girl just as a visual concept?

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

This is almost what I'm going through with my character, Variant.

Basically, I want a high damaging super strength character. Right now I'm rolled as a MA/WP Scrapper.

When, if ever, Super Strength gets ported to Scrappers, I will quickly re-roll him.


However, for your character I would use Martial Arts.

From my experience in playing martial arts as super strength...it fits your concept perfectly.

Storm Kick's gut punch is a quick punch that deals a lot of damage...which is good enough to consider it super strength.

Crane Kick screams super strength with it's knockback.

CAK has got some super strength flavor with the animation and the damage.

With Dragon's Tail being able to knock over Freakshow Tanks...I would call that super strength also.

Yeah, that was my original stance. Martial Arts with the customizations is "good enough." However, having seen what Super Strength has to offer, I keep thinking if I can't do better.

Martial Arts is a flashy, but otherwise low-key set. It hits fast, but not hard. The numbers reflect this, but more importantly, the effects reflect this. I will freely admit that Crane Kick does look really powerful, but at the same it, it looks powerful in the wrong way. It looks powerful as a strong fancy kick and less so as an "earth-shattering kaboom," to quote the Martian. Compare that to something like Knockout Blow, and the difference is clear. Dragon's Tail, as well, IS a decent knockdown, but it's it's still a sweep kick, whereas a modified Ground Punch is just... Amazing.

Martial Arts works, but... It just doesn't hit hard, not visually and especially not in actual practice. Even Eagle's Claw, the power that's supposed to be defining of the set, just isn't there damage-wise. I suppose I should be clamouring for an improvement to Martial Arts, but that's... Complicated.

To be perfectly honest, I would actually prefer Super Strength with the custom animations. I'd love an alternate to Hand Clap, but I can deal with that, worse come to worst. I'm more worried that I'm actually compromising my concept in doing so. Switching over to Super Strength won't make my character too brutish, will it? I'm still holding out for Super Strength for Scrappers, but if I have to, I'll reroll a level 50. I've no qualms about that.

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

This does belong in the AT/powerset section. Your hang-up seems to be with the power level of the sets. MA feels underwhelming to you so apparently that harms your concept. If the punches and effects of SS doesn't ruin your concept and fulfills the desired look and level of effectiveness, then why ask us about it?

Besides that, you short-hand MA's effectiveness. It may not have Footstomp AoE or Rage, but it has superior ST DPS and no rage crashes. All in all, the set is fast and sharply deals with single foes efficiently. It does what it does without relying on anything else. No crashing super buffs or will-probably-be-nerfed-when-proliferation-starts AoEs. On the other hand, MA will probably only ever see buffs.

There's really nothing left to be said. You want SS so use it. No need to go posting long-winded threads that could have been summed up with "Should I go with Ground Punch?" Did you want us to share some of our concepts of either set to compare notes or something?

There isn't a strong contender for the kind of character you're making. I have a pretty strong case for thinking that way because I have a similar character. I went for MA because that far better fitted the concept and I would not have even considered SS. OTOH, what I'd like is an upper-body MA set, which would match the concept much better.

So, pick whichever you like, really. I'd say MA is the better one stylistically, but it's how you feel about it that counts.

Hmm... That's two for Martial Arts so far. It's honestly not what I would have expected. I guess I still live in the past when Martial Arts was this wonky all-kicks set and that's the image of it I have stuck in my head still. A part of my problem with it was the fact that the Eagle's Claw alternate animation would always cut early and...

You know what, I think I finally put my finger on why Super Strength feels more appropriate for my efforts than Martial Arts - the screen shake. Yeah, I know people complained about it to high heaven, but screen shake is what makes Stone Melee feel so damn HEAVY, and it's screen shake that makes Super Strength's hits "feel" more massive than they actually are. Because, really, something like Haymaker feels so damn powerful, whereas Bone Smasher, which uses the same animation, actually doesn't feel very powerful at all. It's the boom and the shake that does it for me.

And, you know, this actually solidifies the concept in my head. What I want from Crash is to feel that punch, to feel that force. I don't want the crude, unwieldy "Hulk smash!" animations, but I want to feel power behind every strike. That, really, is her whole thing, visually. Picture this:

You have this skinny woman walking around a war zone with bullets whizzing by and explosions going off everywhere, but she's not keeping her head down like everybody else. She looks around and spots the giant enemy tank that's approaching, ready to blow a big chunk out of the good guys hiding behind sandbags, but what can she do? She's unarmed. Well, what she can do is leap the 30 feet to the tank, land on top of it and in one swing punch a hole through the armour deep enough to reach inside the crew compartment, basically killing everyone inside from the shock, pressure and shrapnell.

Combine Hancock's missile slap and Iron Man's anti-tank dart and you have a good idea what I'm after. And, the more I think about this, the more I realise I'm willing to give up a LOT of finesse and skill for enough of a reverberating punch.

I know I'm not the first person to make a cute bruiser, and I don't lay any claims for the originality of the basic concept. I practically ripped off Battle Angel Alita and Ghost in the Shell back in 2005 when I made the character, so my claim to uniqueness never really got off the ground. Bur since I couldn't play Tankers (personal preference) and Brutes didn't exist, I went with the only thing I could go with - Martial Arts for Scrappers. Since then, I've been trying to tweak Crash into more of a martial artist just to justify the build choice, but you know what? I think it's time for a re-write. From the ground up.

Let me just end this on a sentimental note. Crash is the second character I ever conceived, not just in this game but in my entire life. Samuel Tow was, obviously, the first, nearly 10 years ago, but Crash was what it really took for me to break my "only one character" rule. In fact, I retconned a very serious character I had written into Sam's story just to edit Crash in, and she's been my pride and joy for pretty much my entire time in City of Heroes. I REALLY want her to be done well, and I think I'll just have to be patient and wait for Super Strength to filter down to Blasters. Then I'll give her a total makeover and rewrite, and I'll see what I can do with the concept. It may not seem like it (and I'm sure Zombra would point and laugh if he were still playing), but you guys really did help me understand that my original concept was just not good enough.

Instead of trying to force the powersets to match the concept, I'll redo the concept altogether. It's the only way to be sure.

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

Sorry, Sam. I get sort of hung up with these sort of posts. More or less, post asking 'what powers combo should I go with' or 'what attack chain should I use' when ultimately those and this can be answered with 'just use what you want'. Neither will disappoint so long as you don't have unnecessarily high expectations.

But to the question of 'which set I would choose for the given concept', I would say either. You want a puncher so punch. If the concept wants some kicks thrown in, pick up Kick from the fighting pool or pick MA. Other than that, why does the decision have to be so complicated?

Say, here's something else, and I know this won't get read, but anyway:

Does anyone think I can justify Willpower as representing the natural toughness of an almost indestructible cyborg? I don't actually have any problem with using Invulnerability other than redundancy with other characters, but I want to explore the possibility.

Now, being an ultra high-tech cyborg in an ultra low-tech post apocalyptic world and the contemporary moderate-tech world of Paragon City, I've had to fuge an excuse to institute a self-repair system into her, which actually solves a LOT of problems in one fell swoop, so I'm keeping this one. But I can already kind of say Dull Pain represents this, because it IS a really powerful heal. Willpower, to a large extent, depends on its regeneration, as neither its resistance nor its defence is particularly strong, but doesn't that kind of undermine the concept of an unbreakable cyborg? I mean, isn't Willpower more a set for characters that DO go down... A lot, but just keep coming back up?

The reason I'm asking is because a lot of people have told me that I should dump Invulnerability and go with Willpower for an invulnerable character, but isn't that kind of missing the point? Personally, I've always kind of seen Willpower as more of a counterpart to Regeneration than anything else, as it seems to focus on getting hurt but not letting that stop you, whereas what I have in mind is more NOT getting hurt. But then, I've never really used Willpower to model John McLane so much as... Well, one regenerating super soldier and one regenerating nanite construct So I really don't know.

I do enjoy the psychic protection Willpower provides, but that might actually also be against concept, as Crash has an entirely cybernetic body, but still retains a human brain with full function. I could really fudge some kind of "psychic dampener" if I really had to, but it would only serve to solve a problem I'm creating for myself, and it would actually detract from what makes her interesting - the conflict between having a cybernetic body that doesn't actually "feel" so much as "inform" and the desire to retain some semblance of humanity.

Basically, do you think I should use Willpower to model a more exotic version of Invulnerability, or just stop trying to think so much and go with Invulnerability without worrying about having a SS/Inv Brute?

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Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

As for super strength, Consider whether you're making someone with "Spider-man" super strength, where she pales in comparison to even Luke Cage in terms of lifting power, and it's not the primary power, or "Luke Cage" Super strength, where the strength is the Primary.
As for your Invulv/Willpower issue, I'd go fo Invuln, it's about the defense and not getting hurt, whereas Willpower is about getting hurt but not caring. Plus, Willpower's willpower, it's about will, being made of special stuff negates will. Invulnerability is more vague, you could be made of special stuff, might have tricks to keep things from hitting you, who knows. Willpower is conceptually limiting(but I love it for the concepts it works ofr! :P) whereas invulnerability is the purposefully "one size fits all" power.

I'd say try out SS/Invul. Invul is superior in terms of 'Hurt? Im sorry, dont make me titter', while SS...well, you said it yourself

Willpower *can* be godly tough, but that does take a lot of work.
Sorry for not adding more, my brain is in fugue at the moment ^^;

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Originally Posted by Zwillinger GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.

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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.

I really should just not respond as I've already said how bent out of shape I get when people ask these types of questions >_>

But to me, you already have the concept for either. So why not just choose the concept you like best?! Just flip a coin or go with the one you feel is less redundant. No matter what I or any of us say, the only person that knows your character best is you...

Like I said, it was probably better I didn't bother responding.

But I'm probably the most unoriginal uncreative person you'll ever meet and yet I have never needed someone to pick a concept for me. But if you're asking for general effectiveness advice, I could see asking what set styles fulfill a concept better. But since both Inv and WP work on surrounding yourself in enemies, they're very nearly the same in function with just differing unique 'shinies'.

It's just a 'pet peeve' that irks me on the forums. I figure everyone has theirs and I tend to steer away from mine (as it's usually everywhere).

MA has much sexier animations, so MA wins.