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Yes. However, these three likewise make it overpowered for Tankers and Brutes. To wit:|
Originally Posted by Vitality
What makes Super Strength so..."overpowered"...for scrappers?
Is it Rage? Is it Footstomp? Is it Knockout Blow? |
Rage is a constant damage/to-hit buff with a relatively mild crash. On a Scrapper the damage buff would be even better (as build up is).
Footstomp is an extremely powerful AoE with a great recharge, great radius, great control and great damage. It makes SS one of the best AoE sets ALL BY ITSELF.
Knockout Blow does an obscene level of damage with a guaranteed hold. Yes, it has a long recharge, but the Popeye punch is a monster.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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none of the above...|
Originally Posted by Vitality
What makes Super Strength so..."overpowered"...for scrappers?
Is it Rage? Is it Footstomp? Is it Knockout Blow? |
Scrappers don't have Super Strength
i really don't see why they couldn't tweak the set to work easily.
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I don't see why either.|
Originally Posted by RoboBug
i really don't see why they couldn't tweak the set to work easily.
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Make Rage a build-up type power.
Lower the radius of Footstomp from 15' to 10' and lower the chance of knockback from 80% to 75%.
Get rid of the hold on Knockout Blow.
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Bingo we have a winner!|
Originally Posted by Vitality
I don't see why either.
Make Rage a build-up type power. Lower the radius of Footstomp from 15' to 10' and lower the chance of knockback from 80% to 75%. Get rid of the hold on Knockout Blow. |
Seriously I would love to see SS come to Scrappers
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
don't change rage into build up. just lower the buff.
IMO if they reduce SS in any way, it should port over to Tankers and Brutes. If the set is overpowered with Scrapper mods, then it's overpowered period. The original power mechanics dev obviously didn't trust his own system.
Scrappers get not only lower defensive modifiers than Tankers, they also get lower caps than Tankers or Brutes. There needs to be a tradeoff to that and it should be that with like powersets they do more damage.
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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The problem in the SO grade isn't so much the size of the buff so much as the duration. I'd have no problem with Rage if it had an uptime ratio or average buff contribution on par with Soul Drain rather than the ability to be perma with SOs.|
Originally Posted by RoboBug
don't change rage into build up. just lower the buff.
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Assuming a 5 target Soul Drain (20% +tohit, 100% +dam) and ignoring animation time (long recharge makes the animation comparatively minor), that's an average 50% uptime ratio for 10% +tohit and 50% +dam on average. To get even uptime, you'd need to double the baseline recharge which would turn the +dam benefit into 10% +tohit with 50% +dam with a 4% enforced downtime. To get even contribution factoring in the enforced downtime (assuming 95% +dam slotting), the devs would need to increase the buff to 120% +dam if the uptime were equal or pull the +dam down to 70% (with a likely reduction in the tohit bonus as well because perma 20% +tohit is just crazy OP) if the uptime ratio was left as is.
Also, the other big problem I'd have with nerfing KO Blow, FS, and Rage is that the set would suck miserably if you did that. Jab, Punch, and Hurl are all horrible attacks thanks to their comparatively long animations. Haymaker is only barely decent. I'd much rather the entire set get a near complete overhaul rather than an attempt to balancing it by bringing the overpowered powers in line without improving the horribly underperforming attacks at least a little bit.
Of course, this is ignoring my view that Scrappers should never get Super Strength. In comic books, you don't see Scrapper characters running around ripping through buildings. They might have superhuman strength, but they use that strength with precision rather than outright brute force. With the exception of Dual Blades (which I am sure Tanks and Brutes only got because they wanted to give the new set to as many ATs as possible), Tankers have brute force based powersets. The same applies to Brutes with the additional exception of Claws. Scrappers have more graceful/precision based sets, and Super Strength belongs on Scrappers about as much as Stone Armor and Stone Melee do.
maybe, just maybe. SS isn't overpowered but is the correct level of powerful on brutes and tanks and so maybe it should just be ported over as is.
also, no one complains about perma follow up on scrappers. sure it requires a tohit check but you can stack it. why would that be ok but rage isn't?
I dunno about the comic book comparison. Yeah, when you think of comic book Scrappers, Batman, Wolverine, Daredevil, Captain America, guys like that are the first who come to mind. But that seems like a kind of narrow view of hand to hand combat type guys; Superman and the Hulk are your "archetypal" Tankers, but it seems kind of silly that in CoH terms, Bats, Logan, Murdock, and Cap could all outdamage Kent and Ed Norton (cue Johnny_Butane).
I do agree that the issue with Rage isn't the buff, but the duration; heck, it's already kind of silly that SS/SD Brutes can run around with what essentially amount to 3 different permanent damage buffs. If you dropped the recharge, though, effectively ending the ability to stack Rage, then I think the Defense crash would have to get looked at again. Or, alternatively, it could be regarded as an "offensive Unstoppable", so that you're trading off 2 minutes of hellacious damage for a window of vulnerability.
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Because Follow Up requires substantially more animation time to provide that benefit and doesn't provide BU levels of damage and tohit permanently with SO grade slotting. FU is only 37.5% +dam and 10% +tohit for 10 seconds on a 12 second recharge with a 1.056 sec animation time. Rage would be 100% +dam and 20% +tohit for 120 seconds with an enforced 10 second downtime after on a 240 second recharge and negligible animation time. You can't compare the two of them by the numbers and find FU to be the broken one if you actually know anything about numbers.
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Originally Posted by RoboBug
also, no one complains about perma follow up on scrappers. sure it requires a tohit check but you can stack it. why would that be ok but rage isn't?
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Except that assumes that the fact that Scrappers are better at damage dealing than Tankers means all bets are off, and everything can be ported to Scrapper damage levels unmodified. It's assuming that there's no upper bound that this might exceed.|
Originally Posted by RoboBug
maybe, just maybe. SS isn't overpowered but is the correct level of powerful on brutes and tanks and so maybe it should just be ported over as is.
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Experience has shown us the devs do not hold this belief. Look at the port of Psychic Blast to Blasters from Defenders. Look carefully at Greater Fire Sword on Scrapper Fire Melee and compare it to the Tanker version, let alone other overall differences in that powerset (the power choices are not all identical).
While Brutes open up a different can of worms in the comparison, Rage actually provides less total damage benefit to a Brute than it would on a Scrapper, because Brute Fury is additive with Rage and because a Bute must use Fury to achieve parity (or better) with Scrapper damage levels. Plus a direct port of Rage would be +100% on a Scrapper as opposed to the current +80% on a Brute.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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The Hulk is more of a blueside Brute than a Tanker, imo. He's actually empowered by his anger and causes almost as much, if not more, damage to the surrounding area than villains he's fighting do, not to mention that he's oftentimes on the receiving end of hero and military attacks thanks to his lack of control.|
Originally Posted by StormDevil
Superman and the Hulk are your "archetypal" Tankers
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| , but it seems kind of silly that in CoH terms, Bats, Logan, Murdock, and Cap could all outdamage Kent and Ed Norton (cue Johnny_Butane). |
The comic book reason has more to do with the themes of the characters that fit those archetypes and what role they would fulfill within a team based environment. Super strong characters that fight with brute force as their weapon (rather than using a specific fighting style or weapon) aren't really Scrappers because the defining characteristic of Scrappers in CoX is the Critical Hit mechanism, which are dev defined as precision strikes rather than lucky blows.
I agree with all of that, but there's still a disconnect between transferring those abilities from the comic world to the game world when you're fighting NPCs. A Superman type (Inv/SS/Energy Tanker) should be able to easily solo AVs, but in CoH terms, he can't.
Anywho, that's all fairly academic; in the CoH world, player-characters can't really match the feats of guys like Supes, because they're more along the lines of Incarnate-types. Player-characters are more like the "second tier" of heroes (although it's kind of funny when you solo Tyrant and rescue the universe's most powerful hero).
The larger point is that I don't think there's really a valid reason that super strength and martial prowess should be mutually exclusive.
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I agree with you on that. I just wish Brutes were a Hero AT. I know people will bring the whole Going Rogue thing...but you still can't start out as an outright hero. |
Originally Posted by Umbral
Of course, this is ignoring my view that Scrappers should never get Super Strength. In comic books, you don't see Scrapper characters running around ripping through buildings. They might have superhuman strength, but they use that strength with precision rather than outright brute force. With the exception of Dual Blades (which I am sure Tanks and Brutes only got because they wanted to give the new set to as many ATs as possible), Tankers have brute force based powersets. The same applies to Brutes with the additional exception of Claws. Scrappers have more graceful/precision based sets, and Super Strength belongs on Scrappers about as much as Stone Armor and Stone Melee do.
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Basically...I want a primary damage hero AT that has Super Strength.
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Questions:|
Originally Posted by Umbral
Of course, this is ignoring my view that Scrappers should never get Super Strength. In comic books, you don't see Scrapper characters running around ripping through buildings. They might have superhuman strength, but they use that strength with precision rather than outright brute force. With the exception of Dual Blades (which I am sure Tanks and Brutes only got because they wanted to give the new set to as many ATs as possible), Tankers have brute force based powersets. The same applies to Brutes with the additional exception of Claws. Scrappers have more graceful/precision based sets, and Super Strength belongs on Scrappers about as much as Stone Armor and Stone Melee do. |
1) Tankers rip through buildings in this game?
2) Comic books have Scrappers?
3) Since Brutes got Claws and Super Reflexes and Dual Blades, why can't Scrappers get some parity and get some of the 'brute force' sets?
The City of Heroes Community is a special one and I will always look fondly on my times arguing, discussing and playing with you all. Thanks and thanks to the developers for a special experience.
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this assumes that rage wouldn't have hits numbers decreased which leaves it incredibly short sighted. i'm not going to claim that rage wouldn't be better. but I really don't think it would be SO much better that it would be broken. it hasn't broken the game on other sets, why should it on scrappers?
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Originally Posted by Umbral
Because Follow Up requires substantially more animation time to provide that benefit and doesn't provide BU levels of damage and tohit permanently with SO grade slotting. FU is only 37.5% +dam and 10% +tohit for 10 seconds on a 12 second recharge with a 1.056 sec animation time. Rage would be 100% +dam and 20% +tohit for 120 seconds with an enforced 10 second downtime after on a 240 second recharge and negligible animation time. You can't compare the two of them by the numbers and find FU to be the broken one if you actually know anything about numbers.
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Lots of folks say a direct port of SS to scrappers would be overpowered.
I've already shown that it wouldn't be for single target damage.
That leaves AoE to worry about. If Foot Stomp is overpowered for brutes and tanks, then it would be for scrappers. If it isn't already OP, then it wouldn't be if proliferated.
I dismiss completely the arguments that scrappers shouldn't get SS (or SM for that matter) "just cuz."
Be well, people of CoH.
The reason SS has not gone to scrapper is conceptual and not fear of being overpowered. There just some sets that Tankers, Brutes, Scrappers and stalkers are just not going to see, because it goes against the concept of the AT. Tankers and Brutes are not going to see Katana any time soon because a the Katana implies a certain focus and sense calm deadly skill that just does not work for tankers or brutes. The same goes for Martial Arts. Nor will Brutes ever see the cold sets, just does not work with the concept. The Scrapper Concept does not fit with superstrength at all. In the end Martial Arts is the Scrapper version of SS. It Scrappers hand to hand combat. Infact is kind of key to the great battles between the ATs. That scrapper like Wolvie going up against Hulk. Its a key distiction between ATs.
And the arguement- Give it to me because I want it, does not cut it.
Enjoy,
Cipher
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As I just stated in the other (edit: oops, it was this thread) SS thread, I see an opinion here not backed up by reality.|
Originally Posted by Louis_Cipher
The reason SS has not gone to scrapper is conceptual and not fear of being overpowered. There just some sets that Tankers, Brutes, Scrappers and stalkers are just not going to see, because it goes against the concept of the AT. Tankers and Brutes are not going to see Katana any time soon because a the Katana implies a certain focus and sense calm deadly skill that just does not work for tankers or brutes. The same goes for Martial Arts. Nor will Brutes ever see the cold sets, just does not work with the concept. The Scrapper Concept does not fit with superstrength at all. In the end Martial Arts is the Scrapper version of SS if you. It Scrappers hand to hand combat. Infact is kind of key to the great battles between the ATs. That scrapper like Wolvie going up against Hulk. Its a key distiction between ATs.
Enjoy, Cipher |
Dual Blades was given to every melee AT. It's in no way brutish. It's purely a style set.
The "elemental" sets staying with tanks/brutes was tossed when scrappers got fire melee/armor.
Then brutes got claws. There's absolutely nothing smashy or heavy about claws. Nothing. Even with the tweaks it got during the port.
When I hear something along the lines of "perhaps tanks shouldn't get katana/broadsword because of DivAva/Parry being grossly overpowerered on tanks" then I'll at least listen. I probably won't agree because kat/bs would be weaksauce on tanks.
But I will no longer take seriously any argument based on "X shouldn't be ported over because of AT concept."
Edit2: And Louis, I got claws on brutes because I wanted it.
Be well, people of CoH.
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how does punching things not fit the scrapper concept? what isn't scrappy about a big punch? you don't make any sense.| The Scrapper Concept does not fit with superstrength at all. |
also, if you think foot stomp would be OP on a scrapper i'll gladly point you to elec/shield
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Counter-example: Spider-man -- a SS/SR scrapper
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Originally Posted by Louis_Cipher
The Scrapper Concept does not fit with superstrength at all.
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Had to get my yearly fix off SS a week or so ago. Yes this is gonna be my second SS tanker, maybe my 3rd is gonna be a scrapper...
A straight up port over is fine I think..
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/agree|
Originally Posted by Bill Z Bubba
I dismiss completely the arguments that scrappers shouldn't get SS (or SM for that matter) "just cuz."
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Originally Posted by Louis_Cipher
The Scrapper Concept does not fit with superstrength at all.
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Why would Super Strength be considered so..."overpowered"...if it was ported to scrappers?
Is it Rage?
Is it Footstomp?
Is it Knockout Blow?
Edit: Clarified the question.