Just a few random suggestions...
By
Aett_Thorn,
Posted on: 2010-02-18 07:38 in Suggestions and Ideas
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What does it matter that you have to 'build up to it'!? Is it not good enough of an 'I win' button with just the bonuses it provides!? Seriously, it fills your endurance 100%, it gives you lvl-scaling mez protection and doubles the mag of all your mezzes (including the ones in your secondary).|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
CONTAINMENT (and "overpower") is completely self contained. You don't have to "build up to" it. Land one hold or immobilize (hope your Ill/ took something that has one in the secondary) and boom, containment. It's a completely different beast than Domination, which DOES need to be built up.
An Ill/anything dom would be building domination MUCH more slowly than a dom with any other control set. The three pets wouldn't be helping you. The two Invisibilities wouldn't be helping you. You'd have very little in the primary (really - as lousy as the AOE hold is, we might as well ignore that) that would help. Have fun trying to survive with that sort of playstyle "pre-perma-PA." |
The fact you keep pointing out that domination would build noticably more slowly seems to belie your experience. I don't claim to be that experienced with doms (I have 2 in the 40s and about 4-5 in the 25-35 range that I haven't played in forever) but even I know domination is *primarily* built by the secondary sets. Why? For several reasons:
-You have more attacks than you do controls.
--Most doms will only have a ST hold, a ST immobilize (often not taken), an AoE immobilize (suicide to spam) and an AoE soft control (dumb to spam, better to use tactically and doesn't recharge fast enough to even make a noticable difference to domination building)
-Because you're using attacks more than controls.
--A dom will more often than not defeat normal foes before needing to reapply controls. Only in prolonged fights or vs tough foes will they need to keep reapplying holds. If you're not attacking during that time, you're not building domination.
Besides that, Illusion doesn't *NEED* humongous amounts of control. It's a solo-oriented control set, really. It has invincible pets that keep enemies mezzed or distracted while you spank them with attacks. The hold and confuse being affected by the double mag mez is all that's required.
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| Now, if you want my opinions on Ill/ as a controller - and I'll start this with saying I've played *every* control set to primary completion, and several to high 40s to 50 (Plant, Fire, Ice, Earth, Grav) - if I'm looking for control, I'll look for any controller other than Illusion. I'll take an Ice/ blaster over Illusion if I'm looking for control. Calling Illusion/ a control set, to me, is like calling a tricycle with a bucket of water on the handlebars a fire truck. Sure, it can get some water over to the fire, but it's far less effective than the real thing. (And that IS directly related to Ill/ having so little hard, direct control.) Illusion's the only control set that I've gotten disgusted with playing, to where I don't *want* to get it to 50. I'd have thrown it out into an AT of its own. |
But that's not even the reason I want illusion for dominators. I want it because of the concept. Controllers, to me, make little conceptual sense in the type of power combos they use. Dominators, on the other hand, make way more sense and are far easier to solo with. I have 0 controllers left on my account but I'll play a new set for doms at the drop of a hat and I've had a concept for an Illusion/Energy Assault character ever since they decreased the rech on Domination the 1st time.
If you don't understand the set, I'll explain it to you. If you don't care, then go away?
I love Illusion Control very much on my Ill/Rad controller. Hearing someone got disgusted with that tells me that they're completely missing the point of the set... Which is that you've got invincible creatures drawing aggro, and a foe that's attacking an invincible creature is pretty much mezzed in a non-mez fashion. It's not calling a truck with a bucket of water a firetruck... It's calling a tsunami a firetruck. Sure, the method's different, but that house is totally gonna be not on fire.
But here's one reason I think Ill won't see play on a Dominator any time soon, aside from Domination:
Illusion would step on a Mastermind's toes pretty hardcore. While in heroes Illusion is the only "pet" set, Villains have a whole Pet AT. While Illusion is the hero's only path to play pets, Dominators aren't supposed to do the Mastermind thing.
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Guess what, sunshine - not your forum, not your place to tell anyone if or when to "go away." You don't like that I have objections and doubt it'll work as a concept, that it won't mesh well with doms? Throw me on ignore. Or just go away yourself. Because you're sure as hell not winning me over here. And with that little attitude, I'm sure not going to take anything you say about me "not getting" Illusion, or any other set, the least bit seriously. |
If you don't care, then go away?
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Make Illusion an interesting mastermind. Dom? Nope. Still don't think it'll work particularly well.
I was going to write more up in response to your 'points,' but with that little response at the end, you're not worth my time.
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Hey, you were the one to say Illusion is to control sets as a tricycle is to a fire truck. Apparently, you don't care about Illusion control. If that is your opinion, well you can have that but when you start spouting that no illusion for doms, that's like saying no proliferation. Screw that. I once had the opinion of keeping sets exclusive for AT uniqueness and I got flamed. Now that Doms lost the only unique set they had, playing that card is hypocritical.|
Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Guess what, sunshine - not your forum, not your place to tell anyone if or when to "go away." You don't like that I have objections and doubt it'll work as a concept, that it won't mesh well with doms? Throw me on ignore. Or just go away yourself. Because you're sure as hell not winning me over here. And with that little attitude, I'm sure not going to take anything you say about me "not getting" Illusion, or any other set, the least bit seriously.
Make Illusion an interesting mastermind. Dom? Nope. Still don't think it'll work particularly well. I was going to write more up in response to your 'points,' but with that little response at the end, you're not worth my time. |
I said 'go away' as a hypothetical question. I wasn't saying get out, but more 'well, you don't care, do you?' Do you like Illusion Control? No? It's a worthless control set that is useless on a team? Then why are you arguing? Do you just want to keep mine and other's concepts from them? MM? I hate MMs. I don't like micromanaging pets like that. So what's your argument to keep me from my Illusion Dom? Can't build domination? No bonus from domination? Invis powers?
Granted it's early in the morning and the only thing keeping my body functioning is caffeine so I may be a bit twitchy and irritable, but even if I was in a good mood, the fact you 'wistfully' pass over the points I used to refute your misconceptions is what may have sparked my 'tude' in the first place.
If you don't want to 'respond to my points', then I'll just count that as a small victory toward Illusion for Doms. Concept ftw.
And Capn, I have a feeling MMs won't feel encroached upon. Just call it a hunch...
There's also the problem the other way. Having an Illusion Controller and having multiple Masterminds I can tell you this... Illusion control feels pretty weak compared to any Mastermind primary. True, Illusion might not have the micromanaging issues... But it also doesn't gain the micromanaging strengths either. As one who uses the numpad binds for MMs and thus has precise control over his minions, I can honestly say that it infuriates me that I have no control whatsoever over my illusions. An Illusion controller is really just a bad MM, unless you take Radiation, but you're still only overcoming the lack of Rad on MMs. I'm a firm believer that if /Rad went over to MM, then Thugs/Rad would be even better than Ill/Rad... Which is why MMs should never get /Rad.
Now, if your argument is that Dominators need illusions because it would make for good dominators, that's fine, but that's not what I'm seeing... I'm seeing that Illusion Dominators would be bad Masterminds. If you're saying you want Illusion for Dominators because you want Masterminds to be easier to control, then I have to ask what you're smoking because having a level 50 mastermind I can honestly say that Thugs are as controllable as illusions when I'm drunk and eating a sandwich and significantly better than illusions with even the slightest bit of effort. The only other answer I can see is that you don't like buffing/healing your minions, to which case I suggest you try a different MM secondary so as to not worry about that.
The only other argument I can see is that you want a Pets/Assault AT, which I agree would be amazing, but I'd want it with an Inherent that actually works, not Domination.
Perhaps I'm missing something, and if so, please enlighten me.
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Very good points, actually. All points (except not being able to cross compare a MM with a Controller) that I can only respond with a 'I don't want to play Masterminds'. Micromanaging pets is just a pain for me. I can't use the numpad bind because, well, I use the numpad for movement. Worse yet, since both my hands occupy different parts of the keyboard for movement and actions, requiring me to use the mouse for basic combat is also an issue.
As is, Illusion is a control set. So if I want to use said set, why should I have to pick an AT I don't like when there's a perfectly good AT with the right power combo that could use it? If it was such a bad 'MM set', well they should have not made it for controllers. It's kind of too late now that it's a control set.
Last thing you're probably missing is *concept*. A light-bender concept has been established through Illusion control and no other control set can duplicate it. I don't really care that the set is pet focused, I wouldn't care for a pets/assault AT (because, again, I can't control pets without pulling my hair out) I just want my concept set! That's the whole basis for powerset proliferation in the first place. Phantom Army could have been stationary for all I care, but seeing as Illusion as a set is already made there isn't much reason to make a new light-bender controlling powerset.
1) I have my attacks on my number bar, I move with the D-Pad, and use my numpad to control pets. Just means I have to stand still.
2) If you just keep your pets in Defensive Follow forever and always, you're probably going to still be awesome. My pets rarely ever leave defensive follow.
3) You're complaint is now "Masterminds are too hard to play" not "I want to play a Dominator with Illusions." To this I can only respond... Masterminds are not hard to play.
4) Illusion predates Masterminds, unless I got my facts wrong. Mastermind was made when they said "Hey, you know what's awesome? Illusion Controllers. What if we made a whole AT like that, but mitigating some of the major flaws?" Illusion Control is now an Artifact.
5) You're now saying that the only reason you want Illusions is because it looks cool and you don't actually WANT to play with Pets/Assault? Then what you want is an Illusion Controller. If you want to play it redside, just wait a few months.
6) On another note: The two invisibility powers would not be nearly as good on a Dominator as they are on a Controller. Part of Illusion's charm is that you can make yourself invisible and focus on using your secondary. Dominator powers don't allow you to be useful when you're not making yourself known to enemies.
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Hmmmm.... |
Originally Posted by CapnGeist
3) You're complaint is now "Masterminds are too hard to play" not "I want to play a Dominator with Illusions." To this I can only respond... Masterminds are not hard to play. |
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| 4) Illusion predates Masterminds, unless I got my facts wrong. Mastermind was made when they said "Hey, you know what's awesome? Illusion Controllers. What if we made a whole AT like that, but mitigating some of the major flaws?" Illusion Control is now an Artifact. |
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That isn't what I'm complaining about. I said I'll never play controllers (deleted all of mine) but I still have masterminds leveled. I use the stance you stated previously, and guess what? It's boring. If I didn't actually have concepts for masterminds, I'd probably delete them too but at least they make conceptual sense to me.|
Originally Posted by CapnGeist
3) You're complaint is now "Masterminds are too hard to play" not "I want to play a Dominator with Illusions." To this I can only respond... Masterminds are not hard to play.
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But dominators *are* fun. If I had a choice of playing boring MM with defensive stance and buffs or free-form dom with domination and attacks, I'd choose doms.
Curious: I'm of the opinion that Illusion should be available to Doms for conceptual purposes. You, for some reason, do not. What is stopping you from just *not* using the set on a dominator if it were available? I've told you why I think the set should be, but I see no point in opposing it other than 'Well Leo wants it so no'.
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| 4) Illusion predates Masterminds, unless I got my facts wrong. Mastermind was made when they said "Hey, you know what's awesome? Illusion Controllers. What if we made a whole AT like that, but mitigating some of the major flaws?" Illusion Control is now an Artifact. |
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| 5) You're now saying that the only reason you want Illusions is because it looks cool and you don't actually WANT to play with Pets/Assault? Then what you want is an Illusion Controller. If you want to play it redside, just wait a few months. |
No, I do not want a controller. I should not have to wait 40+ lvls to fulfill the concept of the character (which requires direct attacks). I will not powerlvl to get the concept working, that's not how the game should work.
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| 6) On another note: The two invisibility powers would not be nearly as good on a Dominator as they are on a Controller. Part of Illusion's charm is that you can make yourself invisible and focus on using your secondary. Dominator powers don't allow you to be useful when you're not making yourself known to enemies. |
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If that's true why didn't MMs come with Illusion pets. Lord knows they could use some more primaries and the art for the pets is already done. Illusion is a control set and as such one day it'll spill into Dominators. There's no reason to think otherwise until a developer says it won't.
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Originally Posted by Memphis_Bill
Illusion predates COV as a whole, yes. It's been in since before Issue 3, when I started. I'm 99% sure it was a launch set, and checking ParagonWiki doesn't have a "This set was introduced" note like with other sets (Plant, /TA and the like.) Had there been a "pet class," similar to masterminds (who do, after all, share the Controller theme of support secondary,) you could put money down that they'd have had it.
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The issue isn't that something's wrong with Illusion, it's that Illusion is pretty clearly designed with the idea of a buff/debuff secondary. The set is very powerful on controllers with a proper secondary. The set's one of the few that enables soloing of Giant Monsters. It's very strong set secondary support and high enough recharge.
Dominator doesn't grant that secondary support. It just... wouldn't be nearly as good on Dominators.
Then as far as concept and flavor goes... Illusion Control controls, sure, but does it "Dominate?" Does it force your opponent to do... anything? It's got 3 mezzes, one of which is pretty much useless. From a Flavor standpoint it just doesn't fit the Dominator mentality of telling the opponent to shut up and take it.
To LISAR's point... Why would it have been given to Masterminds? It's not built like a Mastermind set, and it's just plain not as good at Mastermind-ness as the Mastermind Primaries. Sure, you could make an Illusion Mastermind, but you'd have to build it from the ground up. Mastermind primaries are the most formulaic of any set with only the level 18 power not being determined before the set even exists as a concept.
Anyway, Leo, I think you may be assuming more hostility here... I am not saying that I'd be outraged or angered if Illusion got proliferated to Dominators. I'm not saying that it would ruin the game or make things awful. I'm just trying to give reasons why it's unlikely to happen. You've got a legitimate concern in that you want it for concept, but it's just not a widespread enough concern, and there's enough reasons why Illusion Dominators would be sub-par that they've got other things to focus on first.
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Really, that contradicts that argument right off the bat. Buff seconaries for Controllers have practically no use for Illusion control besides buffing your Phantasm (basically, not getting any more mileage than any other control set). Does this invalidate creating an Illusion/FF or Illusion/Empathy?|
The issue isn't that something's wrong with Illusion, it's that Illusion is pretty clearly designed with the idea of a buff/debuff secondary. .... Dominator doesn't grant that secondary support.... |
If not, why should it invalidate Illusion Dominators? What a certain combo can solo should not limit proliferation. If a set isn't balanced, however, then balance it.
As far as Illusion not 'dominating', if that is an issue, sets can be slightly altered. Like I said before, removing one of the invis powers (or the attack power) for another control power may be a possibility.
But take Ice control for example: How many powers will you be 'dominating' there? There's the immobilize, AoE immobilize, Hold, AoE hold and then the sleep. I can tell you right now, you're probably only going to be *really* dominating with 3 of those...you can say 4 but then it will trivialize your bread-n-butter AoE control power.
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| Anyway, Leo, I think you may be assuming more hostility here... I am not saying that I'd be outraged or angered if Illusion got proliferated to Dominators. I'm not saying that it would ruin the game or make things awful. I'm just trying to give reasons why it's unlikely to happen. You've got a legitimate concern in that you want it for concept, but it's just not a widespread enough concern, and there's enough reasons why Illusion Dominators would be sub-par that they've got other things to focus on first. |
And I wouldn't say this isn't a 'widespread enough concern' or 'trivial'. In fact, there have been many threads, often times in the Dom boards, about just this. Before power customization, all doms were up in arms to get a 'Dark Illusion' set modeled after Malaise's purple illusions and some alteration to the powers. This isn't something that has never been discussed, FYI.
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...Reread the thread, Leo. Eternal asked why a bunch of powers haven't been proliferated, and I answered, and then immediately after somebody asked when Illusion was coming to dominators, so I said it again. And then you started to argue, and because this is the internet, I argued back.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
I'm not being hostile (I'm actually pretty good now, not hopped up on caffeine right now) but I don't particularly see the point in pointing out why it's unlikely to be proliferated.
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The point is... You know why Illusion hasn't gotten proliferated to Dominators yet. I'm not here to argue if it should or shouldn't. I honestly don't care either way about that.
Someone asked why we don't have Illusion Dominators, I answered. Are we really getting anywhere by debating the point more?
On an unrelated note, I want a Pets/Assault set. I would play Demons/Fiery Assault in a heartbeat.
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Ah, well then. Carry on >_>
So what you're saying is since Illusion doesn't work with Containment or provide much Overpower bonus, there's no point to take in on a controller either?
CONTAINMENT (and "overpower") is completely self contained. You don't have to "build up to" it. Land one hold or immobilize (hope your Ill/ took something that has one in the secondary) and boom, containment. It's a completely different beast than Domination, which DOES need to be built up.
An Ill/anything dom would be building domination MUCH more slowly than a dom with any other control set. The three pets wouldn't be helping you. The two Invisibilities wouldn't be helping you. You'd have very little in the primary (really - as lousy as the AOE hold is, we might as well ignore that) that would help. Have fun trying to survive with that sort of playstyle "pre-perma-PA."
Now, if you want my opinions on Ill/ as a controller - and I'll start this with saying I've played *every* control set to primary completion, and several to high 40s to 50 (Plant, Fire, Ice, Earth, Grav) - if I'm looking for control, I'll look for any controller other than Illusion. I'll take an Ice/ blaster over Illusion if I'm looking for control. Calling Illusion/ a control set, to me, is like calling a tricycle with a bucket of water on the handlebars a fire truck. Sure, it can get some water over to the fire, but it's far less effective than the real thing. (And that IS directly related to Ill/ having so little hard, direct control.) Illusion's the only control set that I've gotten disgusted with playing, to where I don't *want* to get it to 50. I'd have thrown it out into an AT of its own.