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Here's what the change is about:|
Originally Posted by Hejtmane
Ok my rant may be irrelevant after looking at my stats between live and dev
Ok what i think they did not make clear on the bug fix this does not look to effect the recovery rate you get from Numia. I am still receiving the same end buff from it being slotted in health on live and test. Does anyone have it slotted in Physical perfection to test ? What they may have done is that PP was getting an additional +recovery buff % from numia you have your +end buff that turns around and also enhances the endurance rate in PP(this is a guess because their post is not clear and from what i see on my toon from live to dev) |
The bonuses they give were (and still are for the Miracle and Regenerative Tissue procs) boosted by Heal/EndMod enhancements slotted into the same powers.
So, if you for instance had a Numina: +Regen/+Recovery proc slotted into Health, and also had an even Heal SO in Health, the Regeneration bonus given by the Numina would be amplified by 33%.
If you had a Numina: +Regen/+Recovery proc slotted into Physical Perfection, and also had two even Heal SOs and one even EndMod SO in PP, the Regeneration bonus given by the Numina would be amplified by 66%, and the Recovery bonus by 33%.
There's no change in the Recovery value given by the Numina slotted in Health, because you can not slot EndMod into Health. If you have the Numina slotted into PP and *also* have EndMod enhancements in PP, the Numina will currently give more Recovery when slotted into PP than into Health. After the patch goes live, that will stop.
The Recovery given by PP did not change, only the Recovery/Regen given by the proc (and *only* when it was being amplified by Heal/EndMod IOs).
The thing about PP is that it's a relatively common power that takes both Heal IO sets (and thus these procs) *and* EndMod enhancements, which allowed the +Recovery to be boosted by enhancements. The +Regeneration could be boosted in *all* powers the procs could be slotted into.
Edit:
Maybe I should clarify that the +Regeneration was only affected by the Heal enhancements, and the +Recovery only by the EndMod enhancements.
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Which was never made clear in the 1 line note and I did not have PP on live or dev with it so thanks
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Originally Posted by Stargazer
Here's what the change is about:
The bonuses they give were (and still are for the Miracle and Regenerative Tissue procs) boosted by Heal/EndMod enhancements slotted into the same powers. So, if you for instance had a Numina: +Regen/+Recovery proc slotted into Health, and also had an even Heal SO in Health, the Regeneration bonus given by the Numina would be amplified by 33%. If you had a Numina: +Regen/+Recovery proc slotted into Physical Perfection, and also had two even Heal SOs and one even EndMod SO in PP, the Regeneration bonus given by the Numina would be amplified by 66%, and the Recovery bonus by 33%. There's no change in the Recovery value given by the Numina slotted in Health, because you can not slot EndMod into Health. If you have the Numina slotted into PP and *also* have EndMod enhancements in PP, the Numina will currently give more Recovery when slotted into PP than into Health. After the patch goes live, that will stop. The Recovery given by PP did not change, only the Recovery/Regen given by the proc (and *only* when it was being amplified by Heal/EndMod IOs). The thing about PP is that it's a relatively common power that takes both Heal IO sets (and thus these procs) *and* EndMod enhancements, which allowed the +Recovery to be boosted by enhancements. The +Regeneration could be boosted in *all* powers the procs could be slotted into. Edit: Maybe I should clarify that the +Regeneration was only affected by the Heal enhancements, and the +Recovery only by the EndMod enhancements. |
Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA
Not that anyone is reading the devs minds on this, but do you think they (mistakenly IMHO) considered this a case of "double dipping"? And that if that's their rationale, they won't extend this "fix" to the Regenerative Tissue and Miracle uniques, because those only "single dip"?
Because to me, the effects WERE consistent and were not double dipping. The +recovery was affected by endmod enhancements. The +regen was affected by heal enhancements. But now the effects are NOT consistent. These effects in Numina are not affected by enhancements, but the same effects in Regenerative Tissue and Miracle ARE affected by enhancements. That makes no sense to me. Not that I want to encourage the devs to do exactly what will screw up the build of my current pride and joy, but if enhancements shouldn't affect these IOs (reasonable, if waaaaaaaay too late in coming if this was intended all along), can we get a little consistency here?
If I'm reading this right, at this point the +regen and +recovery in Numina is less valuable than the +regen and +recovery in Regenerative Tissue and Miracle, and the only difference my little brain can come up with is "Well, yeah, but Numina has both in the same power". True! But at a reduced rate to account for the fact that both are in the same power. I really am not getting the rationale here, or at least am failing to see any rationale that wouldn't obviously apply to Regenerative Tissue and Miracle as well.
I feel like the cops just pulled me over for going 1 mph over the speed limit, and impounded my car. Don't you guys have something more important to do? I17? Going Rogue? Fixing actual problems that make players unhappy instead of happy?
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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I have little doubt that the Regen Tissue and Miracle will be similarly adjusted.
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My feeling is that the devs have something of a black and white take on some of this stuff. "Oh, that's not what we meant to have happen, we should fix it." Case in point - level 50s earning pretty much double inf for defeated foes nearly 6 years after the fact, because that wasn't what was supposed to be happening.|
Originally Posted by Werner
I feel like the cops just pulled me over for going 1 mph over the speed limit, and impounded my car. Don't you guys have something more important to do? I17? Going Rogue? Fixing actual problems that make players unhappy instead of happy?
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I wouldn't be real shocked if this was something like that. It's not about how broken. It's that it's not what they meant it to be doing.
And yes, I expect the other IOs to change... someday.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
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I'd expect the Miracle and Regenerative Tissue procs to be similarly changed eventually.|
Originally Posted by Werner
Not that anyone is reading the devs minds on this, but do you think they (mistakenly IMHO) considered this a case of "double dipping"? And that if that's their rationale, they won't extend this "fix" to the Regenerative Tissue and Miracle uniques, because those only "single dip"?
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| I feel like the cops just pulled me over for going 1 mph over the speed limit, and impounded my car. Don't you guys have something more important to do? I17? Going Rogue? Fixing actual problems that make players unhappy instead of happy? |
As a group, players tend to like things that make their characters more powerful, and dislike things that make them less powerful, but this shouldn't keep devs from fixing things that they consider to not be working as desired (which should generally mean "in the best interest of the game") just because they happen to "benefit" our characters (though one should generally be more careful with applying "nerfs" than "buffs"). Keeping all unintended "minor" buffs would lead to power creep and/or limit what other general buffs can be added (there's at least a degree of a "performance target", and if you surpass this with the help of unintended benefits there's less room to add intended benefits).
In this case, the benefit is also something that is somewhat unintuitive, and that relatively few people know about. This gave people with "arcane and mystic knowledge" a comparative benefit. One could argue that knowledge should be a benefit, but here it was knowledge of an unintended behavior we were benefiting from.
We should also keep in mind that we were essentially able to *double* the benefit given by these IOs, IOs that even at their base values are *very* desirable. The combined "buffed" Recovery values given by the Miracle and Numina procs equal that of 3-slotted Stamina, and as we all know Stamina is quite good. Even without the ability to "buff" these procs, we're still talking about the equivalent of unslotted Stamina - again, quite good. I wouldn't really call this a minor benefit.
Edit:
I should mention that there's also a chance that changes like this will lead to related fixes (fixes that sometimes are 'to our "benefit"'). For instance, these procs are currently affected by Combat Modifiers (level difference - "purple patch"), and thus give lower benefits against higher level foes when slotted into powers targeting foes (such as Rise to the Challenge). It's possible that something like this is also fixed when the devs look closer at these procs.
Yeah, and I don't think there was any reason to fix the level 50 earnings bug either. And that's despite me spending most of my time on my 50s and benefiting significantly from the fix. I don't think it was a good thing for the game as a whole to increase the earning power of level 50s. I think our earning power was already comparatively too high on 50s.
(Edit: So it's not like I like everything that buffs me, and dislike everything that nerfs me. I do care about the game as a whole. But personally, I probably care most about not changing the rules all the time. I hate to "have to" either retire or completely respec my characters every god damn issue. That goes almost as much for introducing new and more powerful IOs or buffing my powers as it does for "bug fixes" that end up requiring the same effort to adapt. But I do, being human, hate adapting to nerfs more than adapting to buffs. I pretty much dislike them both, though. Perhaps I want a more static set of rules than most people.)
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Quote:
Am I reading this correctly?|
Originally Posted by UberGuy
Case in point - level 50s earning pretty much double inf for defeated foes nearly 6 years after the fact, because that wasn't what was supposed to be happening.
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When I read this, it sounds like you're saying we earn less inf now than we used to. As far as I know, we are earning now than before because of the bugfix.
Now I can be completely mistaken, but that's what I thought happened. If this is what you're talking about, I'm a little confused as to the relevance, since this is an additive change that errm 'improves' (IMO not so much) things.
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I agree that it's decidedly sub-optimal. Hence my earlier lament that this wasn't changed long ago - before people were planning builds around it.
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Originally Posted by Werner
But personally, I probably care most about not changing the rules all the time.
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Yeah, it would have been no problem had it been fixed long, long ago. It's always seemed a little weird to me, but it never seemed bugged to me. It seemed like such a specific effect as to be intentional. Guess I was wrong.|
Originally Posted by Stargazer
I agree that it's decidedly sub-optimal. Hence my earlier lament that this wasn't changed long ago - before people were planning builds around it.
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I don't mind when they fix things where I've assumed it was a bug. I was taking advantage of the old bug where the Gaussian proc wasn't unique, so you could slot multiple Gaussian sets. While I couldn't say for sure if the bug was in the description or in the effect, there was obviously a disconnect, so I knew not to count on it. Figuring it was going away some day, I didn't get attached to how things were. I pertty much knew my build was temporary, and decided I could live with that in that specific case. I didn't know that my build for Alexei, which I spent ALL of my influence on, was going to be temporary like that.
(I have plenty of influence again, so that angle isn't really a problem for me, but I can see others being very upset with that aspect of it. I'm just upset that several respecs in a row are likely to be called for to fix this unanticipated (by me) problem. Perhaps I should have anticipated better this time, like I did for the Gaussians. Fact is, I didn't. But I'm probably just talking in circles at this point. Just ranting to blow off a little steam.)
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
The Panacea proc just became a lot more valuable.
Active 50's
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Wardman (Fire/sd Scrapper)
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Peroxisome (mind/psi Dominator)
Evil Thing (Fire/Kin Corruptor)
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Quote:
No, sorry, I wasn't clear.|
Originally Posted by Tonality
Am I reading this correctly?
When I read this, it sounds like you're saying we earn less inf now than we used to. As far as I know, we are earning now than before because of the bugfix. Now I can be completely mistaken, but that's what I thought happened. If this is what you're talking about, I'm a little confused as to the relevance, since this is an additive change that errm 'improves' (IMO not so much) things. |
My point was more that it was an incredibly long-standing bug that no one was complaining about. Their having "fixed" it had pretty obvious and possibly not desirable effects on the in-game market, yet they blithely did it anyway, just because it wasn't working as originally intended.
That, and this Numi/Miracle/Regen thing feel like bugs they probably could have left alone, but fixed "just because they were broken."
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Quote:
And yet they let the requirement for the Empath badge stand for such a long time, even after PUBLICLY admitting it was a TYPO. Then they finally reduced it. Then they reduced it again by ANOTHER factor of ten. |
Originally Posted by UberGuy
That, and this Numi/Miracle/Regen thing feel like bugs they probably could have left alone, but fixed "just because they were broken."
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The mind boggles, eh?
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Along similar lines, I do wish they'd left Zookeeper bugged at 10,000 Rikti monkeys. When you saw someone with the Zookeeper badge back then, it filled you with a combination of awe and pity. Now it's just so... pedestrian.
Not ALL mistakes are bad, devs. Sometimes mistakes make for a more interesting game than what you intended. That's a good thing. Try to focus on the mistakes that make the game worse than you intended, not the ones that make it better than you intended.
(Granted, I think the Numina proc "bug" is just "different than intended", not better or worse. In that case, I recommend letting sleeping dogs lie. Change for the sake of change is simply an annoyance.)
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Regardless of *when* they knew about it, there was no way they could prevent the Regen aspect to be affected by limiting what powers you could slot the procs in. It can be amplified in *all* powers the procs can be slotted in. If they did know about it and considered it undesirable, they could have fixed it in almost as little time as it would have taken them to post about it.
They did remove the ability to slot Heal IO sets in Rest.
(you can't slot any of these procs in Stamina)