Castle and the Market$
Couple ideas to move things gradually down:
1) Ability to buy merits at a ridiculous rate- I suggest 2 million per merit or more. Something that people will complain about and not use. . . except for people who need just a merit or two more. Or people like me who are looking for juicy ways to burn inf. I think a million per merit is just not ENOUGH. Make it part of an April Fool's event. I dunno. 2) The "stop paying for the game, lose your Wentworth stuff after 2 months" option. This is a more conservative version of the old 60-day rule. 3) Lower the inf-to-prestige ratio to, say, 333 to 1. I think people will use it MORE if they get more out of it- perhaps as a blip until people adjust but I think the effect is there. 4) Lower the sellback price of level 50 common recipes. (Already mentioned but worth repeating.) 5) Expensive 1-shot goodies; consider a once-per-half-hour craftable item that recharges all your other powers instantly. How much would you pay for that? A million? Ten million? How much would someone having trouble with Lord Recluse pay for that? How about million-inf Tier 3 IO's, available for emergencies? One LRSF teamwipe could burn a hundred million inf on the spot. 6) 12.5% Wentfee (5% before, 7.5% after) on anything over 10 million inf. If you flip or crap something for double the price now- say, buy item + ingredients for 20 million and sell for 40- you're generating a total of 6 million of Wentfees. Under the new system you'd generate 7.5 million (the item and ingredients, individually, are under the limit) so, in theory, you'd only be able to spend inf 8 times instead of 10. Inf in the system should drop by 20% as a result. And people who are buying low are unaffected. EDIT: 7) Guaranteed server transfer of inf at a 10% fee. Like using the market to do it, but without the possibility of screwing up and buying the wrong Level 29 Training Enhancement. |
For instance: new IOs that drop from Posi's upcoming Endgame system (that CAN'T be sold on the market or stored in bases-- you can either craft and slot, delete them, or give them to other level 50s) would have salvage pieces that drop or can be bought from the store for high prices. These set IOs could give Epic Bonuses like 10%% additional recharge. They would be non-stackable, but there could be many of them. (Meaning you can get 10% recharge, then 10% damage, then 10% end, etc. but you could never stack two 10% recharges or 10% end.) They would also only be available to lvl 50s. And you would need the COMPLETE set (don't all have to be in the same power, unlike current set IOs) to get the Epic Bonus.
Call them OMEGA-LEVEL Clearance IOs, or some silly name.
Just a rough idea.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Except that, that might cause the current "black" market to grow. There are already folks who sell pvp ios for more than 2bill inf OFF MARKET. They might see that new fee is as too high and pull MORE stuff off market thus completely eliminating the effect of the fee altogether. And it's those folks with billions to burn that you WANT the fee to target.
Out of every suggestion that one is NOT a good one. |
It's a big pain in the butt to sell something on the true black market. People are willing to go through that for a 2,000,000,001 inf sale (saving 200 million) but I don't think they're willing to go through that trouble for 37.5 million.
And if they are, they'd probably go through that trouble for 30 million.
I think most of the inf-burn is done in the 20 to 300 million range. If you have a high end build, and I haven't done any research to back up this guess, you probably have less than ten really big-ticket IOs (worth buying on the true black market- over a billion, say) and forty items in the 20-300M range.
How much work are you going to put into saving that extra 2.5%? If you just spent two and a half billion on a PVP IO?
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
Let's say you have something you're selling for 300 million. The wentfee is currently 30 million. The proposed wentfee would be 37.5 million.
It's a big pain in the butt to sell something on the true black market. People are willing to go through that for a 2,000,000,001 inf sale (saving 200 million) but I don't think they're willing to go through that trouble for 37.5 million. And if they are, they'd probably go through that trouble for 30 million. I think most of the inf-burn is done in the 20 to 300 million range. If you have a high end build, and I haven't done any research to back up this guess, you probably have less than ten really big-ticket IOs (worth buying on the true black market- over a billion, say) and forty items in the 20-300M range. How much work are you going to put into saving that extra 2.5%? If you just spent two and a half billion on a PVP IO? |
The ones in the 20-300 mil range aren't the ones I'm worried about. The ones with money to burn are the ones the fee really should be targeting.
EDIT: From some pvp sg members I've talked to, it's also not at all that hard to sell stuff off market if both are standing next to the market while they do it. The level 53 stuff they store their above 2bil inf in is probably why.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
markeeting DR lets go
the devs should solicit us locals with their market questions, since we've consistently demonstrated a far finer grained understanding of its hows and whys.
I used to think they knew what was up with the market. But it's been clear for a while now that they just make random changes without thinking them through, then gape in confusion at the ensuing carnage. |
Well why yes. We could have the same people who insisted that merits shouldn't be tradeable because they it would be easier to take advantage of rubes that were stuck with them, give advice. Who knows they could even listen to advice of people lauding the investment opportunities of respec recipes after they had bought a boatload of them.
Heck real world why not get more advice on improving the legal system from lawyers.
Good counter arguments. But most of the true black market pvp io sales I've been hearing have been for 3-4 bill, not 2,000,000,001. I think folks will do anything for more inf, including just avoiding the market.
The ones in the 20-300 mil range aren't the ones I'm worried about. The ones with money to burn are the ones the fee really should be targeting. EDIT: From some pvp sg members I've talked to, it's also not at all that hard to sell stuff off market if both are standing next to the market while they do it. The level 53 stuff they store their above 2bil inf in is probably why. |
If, for instance, you removed "level 51+ items" as a means of storage, people would start using shiny rocks of some sort as large-denomination currency. I don't know what they'd be- some sort of base salvage? LoTGs? - but people would find something to agree on and trade those things as 200-million-inf coins.
If we find a way to charge more on the midsize items, eventually there will be less inf around to make these multibillion inf sales possible. Well, the inf supply will grow more slowly.
... I really like the million-inf inspirations.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
After that little back and forth between Castle and Mod8 I'd have to tentatively agree.
|
Also, I support holy-crap-epic items for sale. Not only does I want teh shinies, it'd be a much easier way to store inf.
There are no words for what this community, and the friends I have made here mean to me. Please know that I care for all of you, yes, even you. If you Twitter, I'm MrThan. If you're Unleashed, I'm dumps. I'll try and get registered on the Titan Forums as well. Peace, and thanks for the best nine years anyone could ever ask for.
In an older game I played there was Store bought weapons and Player made weapons. Store bought weapons were rated at 100% efficiency, Player made weapons could get up to 200% efficiency, with slightly better stats. The point was to get people to by player crafted enhancements or craft them yourself. If you couldn't afford them at the time, you could outfit yourself with store bought ones and then save for the playermade ones.
I wish this game was more like that - sure we can do that with SOs, but the gap between SOs and Set bonuses is huge. Here is what I would think could be a discussable idea:
Establish a normal baseline of what people are usually willing to pay for IOs - more on this later
Allow all Crafted IOs to be bought from a store, these can't be stored or sold on the market.
Add a flag to all player crafted IOs which grant either Extra percentages or better set bonuses (Maybe an extra %HP added or another %recharge point added)
This would allow players to purchase already crafted IOs from a vendor and that money is now destroyed. A user could then save to craft their own IOs or purchase off of the market.
The real question is how to determine how much IOs should cost from the store? player demand is different. LotG might be worth 100million each for me store bought, but only worth 50million from someone else?
I would also like to add that Purples and PvP IOs wouldn't be able to be store bought. There needs to be a different vehcile for getting PvP drops though.
Good counter arguments. But most of the true black market pvp io sales I've been hearing have been for 3-4 bill, not 2,000,000,001. I think folks will do anything for more inf, including just avoiding the market.
The ones in the 20-300 mil range aren't the ones I'm worried about. The ones with money to burn are the ones the fee really should be targeting. EDIT: From some pvp sg members I've talked to, it's also not at all that hard to sell stuff off market if both are standing next to the market while they do it. The level 53 stuff they store their above 2bil inf in is probably why. |
No it does NOT.
EDIT: They changed the 60 day rule ages ago. If someone quits now and comes back in two months, their stuff should be there. If it isn't it's a bug and if they petition they will get their stuff back after cust service investigates. |
That said as with Iggy, I came back after a few months and all my stuff was there.
"Play Nice and BEHAVE! I don't want to hear about any more of your shenanigans brought up in our meetings at Paragon"-Ghost Falcon @Tritonfree @Philly's 2nd Convenient CIGAL BoBC/INOANN Arts&Crafts Sporks
Average Joes FAP THE MENTOR PROJECT Justice Events
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
But the thing is the really big ticket sales aren't generating Wentfees anyway. If something is selling for >2 billion inf then the market would need to be changed to accommodate the sale (and people would probably still prefer to sell off-market to avoid the fee anyway). Increasing the Wentfee increases the rate at which WWs sucks inf out of the economy at all levels.
|
Hence the mid-level IO generating activities of some of the folks posting in this thread.
Also the crap load of inf is NOT coming from midlevel activity. It's coming from 50s who now thanks to the devs correcting that bug, and the SSK system, can make a crap load more inf than at any other level.
Unless you know something about fire/kins and fire/psi who farm in the 30s.
EDIT: Let me amend this. It's not that mid-level IO economy is near non-existent (though trying to set IO out recent mid-level toon I have currently has basically made me give up on getting any complete set IOs until I'm level 40), it's that the amount of inf you make via ALL inf generating activities (mobs, market, merits, tickets) is BETTER at 50 than at any other level.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
I believe the change was for active accounts. Inactive accounts are SUPPOSED to loose their stuff after 60 days. I could be wrong about this but it was the general consensus when i was deactivating my accounts to get stuff off WW.
That said as with Iggy, I came back after a few months and all my stuff was there. |
Then again I'm old. . . (and you know what they say about the first thing to go) so I'll have to do some search-fu.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
I was incorrect.
From Paragon wiki: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Consignment_House
Previously, at the time of server maintenance, any characters not logged in for 60 days would have their consignment items deleted. However that changed with the release of Issue 14 (April 07, 2009).
Characters (on active accounts) who have inventories, bids or items for sale in the Black Market or in Wentworth's Consignment House will no longer have to log into the game within 60 days to avoid item or influence/infamy expiration. In-game Black Market and Wentworth employees will still give their friendly reminder, however if your account is "active", they won't take your "stuff".
Note: The definition of "inactive", now refers to an account whose subscription is no longer paid for. Yet there is still some question as to whether the consignment item deletion for inactive accounts also has the 60 day grace period.
However, the note above might explain what some folks are seeing. For ACTIVE (as in you are paying--doesn't matter if you NEVER log in) accounts you stuff stays there past 60 days. Also it seems (sounds like from the wording) that the deletion won't occur if you pay up on your 59th day. Whether you log in or not.
EDIT: macskull was correct.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Except that it has already been stated that the mid-level IO economy is basically near non-existant.
Hence the mid-level IO generating activities of some of the folks posting in this thread. Also the crap load of inf is NOT coming from midlevel activity. It's coming from 50s who now thanks to the devs correcting that bug, and the SSK system, can make a crap load more inf than at any other level. Unless you know something about fire/kins and fire/psi who farm in the 30s. EDIT: Let me amend this. It's not that mid-level IO economy is near non-existent (though trying to set IO out recent mid-level toon I have currently has basically made me give up on getting any complete set IOs until I'm level 40), it's that the amount of inf you make via ALL inf generating activities (mobs, market, merits, tickets) is BETTER at 50 than at any other level. |
In the 20-200 million range, you have a few dozen different items. (I think I just moved my goalposts; "whatever million to whatever million" I used before.) If you want a Numina's Shiny Level 50, right now they're fluttering around 100 million heroside. Almost nobody with 100 million inf is going to gouge kick fight and scream to save 2.5 million inf, so you'll get the same number of Numina +/+ sales you did before. You're just going to pull more inf out of the system with them. Miracle? Same number of sales, more inf destroyed.
It's not going to be enough, I think, because if someone wants a shiny and sets out to "make" 100 million inf by farming, they actually create probably 50 million new inf of that (acquiring the rest from market sales) and only burn 10 million buying their shiny. Net result: +40 million inf, which requires 400 million inf of sales to get rid of. With my system it would burn 12.5 million and the remaining 37.5 million inf would require 300 million inf of sales to get rid of.
It's a start. Moar Flipping would help as well. But really we need base building, inf transferring through the market, and GIANT FREAKIN ROBOTS FOR RENT, five million inf to drive it around for five minutes. Or whatever.
Mini-guides: Force Field Defenders, Blasters, Market Self-Defense, Frankenslotting.
So you think you're a hero, huh.
@Boltcutter in game.
The Dev's best recourse might be well to fill bids for the "bid holders" such as level 53 recipes, odd-levelled Hamis and so on, thus removing billions of influence from the game completely. That or block bids on nonexistant items.
|
And again, the items EXIST. They're just not OBTAINABLE in the game.
-Add an ingame store that sells ALL non-PvP Recipes at a set influence price. If the store sells Miracle procs at 20 mil, people will use that and, sadly, ignore the markets. |
Actually, I'd love the ability to pay influence to vendors for random rolls...that would crank out [i]thousands[i] of new recipes into the system Or the devs could just flip the switch and drop hundreds of recipes into the market from a 'dummy account', removing inf by the millions (billions?) as well. |
I agree though, there need to be more inf sinks in the game.
Except that it has already been stated that the mid-level IO economy is basically near non-existant.
Hence the mid-level IO generating activities of some of the folks posting in this thread. Also the crap load of inf is NOT coming from midlevel activity. It's coming from 50s who now thanks to the devs correcting that bug, and the SSK system, can make a crap load more inf than at any other level. Unless you know something about fire/kins and fire/psi who farm in the 30s. EDIT: Let me amend this. It's not that mid-level IO economy is near non-existent (though trying to set IO out recent mid-level toon I have currently has basically made me give up on getting any complete set IOs until I'm level 40), it's that the amount of inf you make via ALL inf generating activities (mobs, market, merits, tickets) is BETTER at 50 than at any other level. |
I was incorrect.
From Paragon wiki: http://paragonwiki.com/wiki/Consignment_House Previously, at the time of server maintenance, any characters not logged in for 60 days would have their consignment items deleted. However that changed with the release of Issue 14 (April 07, 2009). Characters (on active accounts) who have inventories, bids or items for sale in the Black Market or in Wentworth's Consignment House will no longer have to log into the game within 60 days to avoid item or influence/infamy expiration. In-game Black Market and Wentworth employees will still give their friendly reminder, however if your account is "active", they won't take your "stuff". Note: The definition of "inactive", now refers to an account whose subscription is no longer paid for. Yet there is still some question as to whether the consignment item deletion for inactive accounts also has the 60 day grace period. However, the note above might explain what some folks are seeing. For ACTIVE (as in you are paying--doesn't matter if you NEVER log in) accounts you stuff stays there past 60 days. Also it seems (sounds like from the wording) that the deletion won't occur if you pay up on your 59th day. Whether you log in or not. EDIT: macskull was correct. |
edit: to say ty for looking it up and posting
"Play Nice and BEHAVE! I don't want to hear about any more of your shenanigans brought up in our meetings at Paragon"-Ghost Falcon @Tritonfree @Philly's 2nd Convenient CIGAL BoBC/INOANN Arts&Crafts Sporks
Average Joes FAP THE MENTOR PROJECT Justice Events
Perhaps I should have said "midrange". I didn't mean a level 33 IO, I meant an IO selling for 33 million inf.
In the 20-200 million range, you have a few dozen different items. (I think I just moved my goalposts; "whatever million to whatever million" I used before.) If you want a Numina's Shiny Level 50, right now they're fluttering around 100 million heroside. Almost nobody with 100 million inf is going to gouge kick fight and scream to save 2.5 million inf, so you'll get the same number of Numina +/+ sales you did before. You're just going to pull more inf out of the system with them. Miracle? Same number of sales, more inf destroyed. It's not going to be enough, I think, because if someone wants a shiny and sets out to "make" 100 million inf by farming, they actually create probably 50 million new inf of that (acquiring the rest from market sales) and only burn 10 million buying their shiny. Net result: +40 million inf, which requires 400 million inf of sales to get rid of. With my system it would burn 12.5 million and the remaining 37.5 million inf would require 300 million inf of sales to get rid of. It's a start. Moar Flipping would help as well. But really we need base building, inf transferring through the market, and GIANT FREAKIN ROBOTS FOR RENT, five million inf to drive it around for five minutes. Or whatever. |
Me want.
EDIT: yeah it's clearer now what you meant.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
Like I said my account was unpaid for well over 60 days and i didn't loose my stuff so either it's not 60 days anylonger or it's broken. I think iggy was gone 7+months.
edit: to say ty for looking it up and posting |
Hell the devs recently found a drop rate bug that existed SINCE ISSUE 9.
So there ya go.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
I'm not talking about mid-level in terms of IO level. I'm talking about the IOs that sell in (as Fulmen's said) the 30-300million price range. There are a handful of IOs that sell in the 2billino plus range but there are a lot more (both in number of IOs and quantity sold) that sell in this range. Increasing the amount the market skims off here would help a lot with curbing inflation.
|
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
You REALLY want to see L53 purples floating around the game?
And again, the items EXIST. They're just not OBTAINABLE in the game. Essentially destroys the purpose of the market. I don't think that's going to fly. How do you sell them if anyone can go out and just plunk the cash down and build their toons the same way? I agree though, there need to be more inf sinks in the game. |
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!
They could also have special event inf sinks. I think the first thing they need to do is change the rate at which inf is generated. But even if you do that, you have a bunch of inf in the system that needs to be yanked out. Rather than add a permanent inf sink, which might start to look cruelly expensive after everyone becomes impoverished, you could have a one-time-only inf sink that may or may not reappear the next year.
Imagine a store that sells fireworks for inf, but only in the first week of July. How much inf would that suck out of the system? If needed, you could reopen that store in December, for a New Year's celebration. If the amount of inf in the system goes down, you can adjust the fireworks prices downward.
A costume shop that sells the Halloween temp powers during October? You could trick or treat for them or just buy them, your choice. Either way, they would expire at the same time.
Avatar: "Cheeky Jack O Lantern" by dimarie
Avatar: "Cheeky Jack O Lantern" by dimarie
I used to think they knew what was up with the market. But it's been clear for a while now that they just make random changes without thinking them through, then gape in confusion at the ensuing carnage.
Blazara Aura LVL 50 Fire/Psi Dom (with 125% recharge)
Flameboxer Aura LVL 50 SS/Fire Brute
Ice 'Em Aura LVL 50 Ice Tank
Darq Widow Fortune LVL 50 Fortunata (200% rech/Night Widow 192.5% rech)--thanks issue 19!