Here's the BIG question for your AT. What's your inherent? What's that little "thing" that makes you more than a scrapper with more ranged attacks? The idea of an Assault/Defense AT is a solid one, but it's been seen before. So what's the inherent you're pushing for?
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Sliding Scale Brute Fury.
More Ranged attacks you land the higher your Melee damage buff. Vice Versa.
I could swear i made this suggestion, last year...
-Rachel-
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agreed, that is the issue and it is a difficult one|
Originally Posted by CapnGeist
Here's the BIG question for your AT. What's your inherent? What's that little "thing" that makes you more than a scrapper with more ranged attacks? The idea of an Assault/Defense AT is a solid one, but it's been seen before. So what's the inherent you're pushing for?
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the purpose of this AT would be damage dealing for the most part, however, it would have generally less base damage than most
however, I just had a thought about the stance powers I gave above and removing those in favor of making that an inherent in some way
"Stance"
Base +15% recharge
-1.5% recharge per enemy in melee (Max 10 enemies)
+1.5% to damage per enemy in melee (Max 10 enemies)
This would make the skirmisher deal more damage per hit while in melee, but attack more frequently while at range.
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"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
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SOMEONE made that suggestion a while back, and Castle came in and commented on it. Don't know if it was your thread or not.|
Originally Posted by Steampunkette
Sliding Scale Brute Fury.
More Ranged attacks you land the higher your Melee damage buff. Vice Versa. I could swear i made this suggestion, last year... -Rachel- |
We don't have a "Melee Damage Buff". All damage gets the same buff. There's no way to implement this without a huge change to how powers work.
@Roderick
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The scrapper I'm currently working on has a +16.5% damage buff through sets. It doesn't make a noticeable difference. Brutes get +200% damage for a full fury bar, and usually tend to hover around +150%. I think a +5%/target would be the minimum to make a difference.|
Originally Posted by Lycanus
agreed, that is the issue and it is a difficult one
the purpose of this AT would be damage dealing for the most part, however, it would have generally less base damage than most however, I just had a thought about the stance powers I gave above and removing those in favor of making that an inherent in some way "Stance" Base +15% recharge -1.5% recharge per enemy in melee (Max 10 enemies) +1.5% to damage per enemy in melee (Max 10 enemies) This would make the skirmisher deal more damage per hit while in melee, but attack more frequently while at range. |
Scrapper melee and blaster ranged damage are 1.125 scale. Brute melee is 0.9 (with an up to +200% bonus). Tank melee and defender ranged are 0.8. You gave this class a 0.85/0.75 modifier - roughly on par with tanks and defenders. If it's meant to be a damage dealer, the buff needs more potential than it has in your suggestion.
@Roderick
15 is a VERY small amount of recharge/damage boost. Consider Brute's damage shift is +200%, and Scrapper crits are +100% damage. Sure it's enough to help balance, but it's too low to feel like anything in gameplay.
NPCs: A Single Method to Greatly Expand Bases
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I tend to start low just in case I get accused of power-mongering.|
Originally Posted by Roderick
The scrapper I'm currently working on has a +16.5% damage buff through sets. It doesn't make a noticeable difference. Brutes get +200% damage for a full fury bar, and usually tend to hover around +150%. I think a +5%/target would be the minimum to make a difference.
Scrapper melee and blaster ranged damage are 1.125 scale. Brute melee is 0.9 (with an up to +200% bonus). Tank melee and defender ranged are 0.8. You gave this class a 0.85/0.75 modifier - roughly on par with tanks and defenders. If it's meant to be a damage dealer, the buff needs more potential than it has in your suggestion. |
how about a 75% recharge
-7.5% per enemy in melee range (max 10)
+7.5% damage per enemy in melee range (max 10)
that would give a semi constant buff of right about 75% dps compared to Scrapper's occasional buff and Brute's fury build up
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"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
More balanced, but now the question is: is that fun? Would people honestly play thinking about the effects or would they just figure it would come out in a wash anyway? Sounds like the effects aren't visible enough to really be enjoyable.
Now I like the recharge idea, but I think a scaling recharge bonus would be better, one that just went up and down without a penalty to it. The question then is how to encourage it without making the players feel penalized. We may want to bring back something akin to the old Defiance, where recharge raises as health decreases, suggesting some sort of adrenaline rush from getting your face smashed in. This AT seems more suited to teetering on the brink of death than Blasters.
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and better able to survive the brink given their defense abilities.
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Originally Posted by CapnGeist
More balanced, but now the question is: is that fun? Would people honestly play thinking about the effects or would they just figure it would come out in a wash anyway? Sounds like the effects aren't visible enough to really be enjoyable.
Now I like the recharge idea, but I think a scaling recharge bonus would be better, one that just went up and down without a penalty to it. The question then is how to encourage it without making the players feel penalized. We may want to bring back something akin to the old Defiance, where recharge raises as health decreases, suggesting some sort of adrenaline rush from getting your face smashed in. This AT seems more suited to teetering on the brink of death than Blasters. |
Thrythlind's Deviant Art Page
"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
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No. No WAY should the inherent be better than Hasten. (Hasten is 70% recharge, and only up part of the time)|
Originally Posted by Lycanus
I tend to start low just in case I get accused of power-mongering.
how about a 75% recharge -7.5% per enemy in melee range (max 10) +7.5% damage per enemy in melee range (max 10) that would give a semi constant buff of right about 75% dps compared to Scrapper's occasional buff and Brute's fury build up |
Quickness from Super Reflexes, and similar powers are 20% recharge. You were fine with the 15% recharge/-1.5% per enemy in melee. Just the damage bonus needed changing.
@Roderick
Why can't the inherent be better than Hasten? The brute inherent is, on average, better than Build Up and it certainly makes Assault look like nothing. You just need to build the AT around the idea of the bonus.
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Here's the part I have a problem with. |
Originally Posted by Lycanus
Defenses: (weaker than Scrapper) Shield Defense Super Reflexes Fiery Aura Energy Aura Willpower Regeneration Dark Armor Electricity Armor Ice Armor Invulnerability |
How much weaker than scrapper defenses can you get before they're completely ineffectual?
Scrappers relying on pure resistance are already hard enough to play, how much harder to play would a character be that gets less of it to start with?
If you make them equal to scrapper defenses, you end up with a potentially very overpowered AT.
If you make them weak enough to be balanced only SR, Shield, Regen, and Willpower would ever be used, because the rest of them would just be too weak to make an effective set.
Huge balance issue inherent in this one I think.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
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Hmm, sounds like it'd suck.
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Damage Resistance Modifier: Blaster level Defense Resistance Modifier: Blaster level Melee Damage Base Modifer: .85 Ranged Damage Base Modifier: .75 ... Defenses: (weaker than Scrapper) |
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the problem with that is that it is that +15% recharge and +15% damage each have roughly the same amount of effect on damage output|
Originally Posted by Roderick
No. No WAY should the inherent be better than Hasten. (Hasten is 70% recharge, and only up part of the time)
Quickness from Super Reflexes, and similar powers are 20% recharge. You were fine with the 15% recharge/-1.5% per enemy in melee. Just the damage bonus needed changing. |
so the recharge and damage bonuses would need to be at about the same level to apply the same effect.
also, by weaker than scrapper, I meant base, not max. Everything but Tankers, Brutes and Kheldians have about 75% max resistance.
Do not discount range as a mitigation style. I was thinking that melee would be heavier damage attacks than ranged on average.
I'm not sure of the bonuses, I've thought about Regen and Resist bonuses, Recharge and Damage (obviously), also To Hit.
The thing I know is that the AT should have is that they get one buff while staying at range and another buff while staying close up.
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"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
Here's an idea... What if this AT gets a flat boost to all movement speeds? Not too much, but say... Something that scales with level a starts at just about a 1 MPH increase and caps out at +20 MPH at level 50. This would encourage getting in close to foes to get into melee and darting out to be ranged significantly easier than Defenders and Dominators move in and out.
NPCs: A Single Method to Greatly Expand Bases
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I like that. Too bad there's no way to remove the rooted effect and make it the only AT capable of true Run and Gun. But then, that would be WAY too powerful.
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Originally Posted by CapnGeist
Here's an idea... What if this AT gets a flat boost to all movement speeds? Not too much, but say... Something that scales with level a starts at just about a 1 MPH increase and caps out at +20 MPH at level 50. This would encourage getting in close to foes to get into melee and darting out to be ranged significantly easier than Defenders and Dominators move in and out.
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Thrythlind's Deviant Art Page
"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math
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Yeah, I made that suggestion, was advised to PM Castle and he did his best to not crush my dreams, but did anyway |
Originally Posted by Roderick
SOMEONE made that suggestion a while back, and Castle came in and commented on it. Don't know if it was your thread or not.
We don't have a "Melee Damage Buff". All damage gets the same buff. There's no way to implement this without a huge change to how powers work. |
I still enjoy the idea of a melee buff for being in melee and a ranged buff for staying at range, but since we lack "melee damage" and "ranged damage" as separate buffable mods, that's out of the question.How about scaling power effectiveness, then? The more enemies in melee, the more you trade damage for protection in whatever form you get from your powers, and the the less enemies in melee, the more damage you get. This could work by having protection powers all act like Invincibility and your inherent working as an Invincibility-style damage debuff. Kind of a mini-Scrapper in melee, mini-Blaster at range.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I remember this!
The scaling damage for ranged/melee got shot down so I instead suggested melee and ranged DEFENSE mods. But then there was an argument about Defense versus Damage resistance...
In the end we got nowhere, I'm afraid. =-(
-Rachel-
Yeah - I think something alongs these lines would be very cool.
I think regen would be a little overpowered with a ranged toon.
I'd prefer them to use at least some different assault sets than what is currently available.
Dark would be seemingly one of the easier to add.
This would probably be the place to add some sort of more tech style attacks too - as this would be an attractive AT for those that wanted to have a character in power armor.
I'd love to see them add a sonic hybrid - but I'm not sure how that would work out.
A rad assault set would be nice too.
Gun-blade is a non-starter for me - but to each their own.
How about this for an inherent? Not sure of the clever name - Calibration perhaps?
After a certain number of consecutive successful attacks - an effect similar to build up (or aim) procs automatically. (I'm not sure if you'd want to keep the power boost in most of the assault sets here or not.)
I'm suggesting making a second "Assault" AT (melee/range mix) for the hero side.
Base Level 50 Hit Points: Blaster < Skirmisher < Scrapper
Max Level 50 Hit Points: Blaster < Skirmisher < Scrapper
Damage Resistance Modifier: Blaster level
Defense Resistance Modifier: Blaster level
Melee Damage Base Modifer: .85
Ranged Damage Base Modifier: .75
Threat Level: 3
Power Sets:
Earth Assault
Electricity Assault
Energy Assault
Fiery Assault
Icy Assault
Psionic Assault
Thorny Assault
Gun-Blade
Pistol - Moderate, Ranged, Fast
Slash - High, Melee, Moderate
Empty Clip - 20 degree cone, moderate damage, 40 ft range
Parry - Minor, Melee, Fast, +Def
Hit and Run - +10% to Hit, +10% Recharge, -10% damage, Cannot be used at same time as Toe the Line
Deadly Thrust - Superior, Melee, Slow
Crippling Shot - Ranged, High, Slow
Toe the Line - +10% Damage, +20% Regen, -10% to Hit, Cannot be used at same time as Hit and Run
Storm of Violence - PBAoE Superior, KB
Defenses: (weaker than Scrapper)
Shield Defense
Super Reflexes
Fiery Aura
Energy Aura
Willpower
Regeneration
Dark Armor
Electricity Armor
Ice Armor
Invulnerability
The overall goal is someone that has less base damage than scrappers or blasters, but has the option of going ranged or melee.
Thrythlind's Deviant Art Page
"Notice at the end, there: Arcanaville did the math and KICKED IT INTO EXISTENCE." - Ironik on the power of Arcanaville's math