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While I agree that only 10 global channel is limiting (I personally would prefer 15-20), I feel the need to correct a few misconceptions that form the basis for this suggestion.|
Originally Posted by Vanex_NA
11 servers and only 10 global channels is not enough also because of the 2500 limit per each channel. I can't leave channels to avoid the risk of not being able to join them again.
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Originally Posted by Vanex_NA
I don't need to join 100 channels at the same time, 10 is fair enough so I'd suggest:
- removing the 2500 limit, since any server holds way more than 2500 toons |
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Originally Posted by Vanex_NA
further improvement:
- per-server global list, all toons on the same server will share the same global channels list |
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Originally Posted by Vanex_NA
advanced setting:
- per-toon global list |
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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why preventing users to join badge/TF channels ? why creating lots of alternative channels to overcome the limitation while creating only confusion?|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
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The 2,500 limit is not a character limit, rather an ACCOUNT limit. As a channel moderator, there should be tools to remove inactive accounts from that list. This problem plagues a number of the larger badge channels. Virtue changes every year to get around this problem. |
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
I think this completely ignores the whole concept of "global channels". If you are asking for Server Channels, then by all means. Global by definition means cross-server. In fact they should be made totally Global and be shared between the US & UK servers.
Not only "no", but "not on the game's life, NO". See the point above about the definition of "Global". |
toon 1 has: channel1, channel2, channel3...channel 10
toon 2 has: channel3, channel4, channel5...channel 12
for toon 1 could be important to have channel 1 and 2 since related to his AT/role/anything
for toon 2 could be important to have channel 11 and 12 instead
both will share channel 3 to 10, common interests (TFs, badges, ...)
let's summarize: leaving and joining channels all the time (with being 2501st risk) is not a pleasure
20 channels would alleviate the problem, kicking players from channels maybe: extra work for channel admins, extra work for users to rejoin once they need that channel again
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Okay, to use a real example here. Triumph Watch last year hit 2,500 accounts. About 1,300 of those were inactive accounts. That is 1,300 accounts that joined the channel and then had their accounts gone inactive. There are people with multiple accounts, and some let their second (or third, fouth, or even fifth) account lapse before leaving the channel. Then there are those that just left the game.|
Originally Posted by Vanex_NA
why preventing users to join badge/TF channels ? why creating lots of alternative channels to overcome the limitation while creating only confusion?
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The channel moderators could not free up those spots, so if people left they ran the risk of not being able to re-join the channel.
The only solution that the Developers and GM can provide in this situation is to tell the channel moderators to make a new channel. Larger servers run into this problem faster than the lower population servers, which is why VU2007, VU2008, VU2009, and I'm guessing VU2010 exist.
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Originally Posted by Vanex_NA
I'll explain more:
toon 1 has: channel1, channel2, channel3...channel 10 toon 2 has: channel3, channel4, channel5...channel 12 for toon 1 could be important to have channel 1 and 2 since related to his AT/role/anything for toon 2 could be important to have channel 11 and 12 instead both will share channel 3 to 10, common interests (TFs, badges, ...) |
If you only want to display certain channels on a per character basis, you can already do that. Right click on a chat tab and select which channels you want to appear in that tab.
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Originally Posted by Vanex_NA
let's summarize: leaving and joining channels all the time (with being 2501st risk) is not a pleasure
20 channels would alleviate the problem, kicking players from channels maybe: extra work for channel admins, extra work for users to rejoin once they need that channel again |
- Delays the problem in a few cases.
- Would fill the channels quicker in many others.
- Provides greater risk of the channels filling with inactive accounts or people who've forgotten they had subscribed to a channel on a little used alt.
All-in-all, a bad suggestion.
Edit:
Although I would welcome each server getting a dedicated general chat channel that is cross-faction and available no matter where you are on the server.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
Have to agree with Snow Globe. The concept of global channels was created so that you could contact your friends no matter where they were. They operate by global handle, which is allocated to an account. Making them 'per toon' eliminates the actual purpose of the things.
An automated unsubscribe if inactive for a given period would likely solve most of the issues being described here.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
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An automatic unsubscribe from all global channels after 90 days of account inactivity (unpaid) would help a lot.
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Originally Posted by Ravenswing
An automated unsubscribe if inactive for a given period would likely solve most of the issues being described here.
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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That sounds like a workable solution - something akin to auto-demote in supergroups, the exact value defined by commandline or UI by mods. |
Originally Posted by Ravenswing
An automated unsubscribe if inactive for a given period would likely solve most of the issues being described here.
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You could set it to a low number for open channels, since you automatically rejoin a channel when your chat UI loads {try it with /chatloadfile}, and a more relaxed one for private channels where rejoining might be more of a hassle.
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That is another problem, the problems are:|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Okay, to use a real example here. Triumph Watch last year hit 2,500 accounts. About 1,300 of those were inactive accounts.
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- with only 10 channels per account even if you can kick inactive accounts I'm still unable to join my favourite 11th channel.
- when playing toons on ServerW or ServerX I could not be interested in listening ServerY_TF ServerY_badges ServerY_chat ServerY_anything, leaving and rejoining channels is risky because of the 2500 cap and leaving/joining repeatedly is not good
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
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The only solution that the Developers and GM can provide in this situation is to tell the channel moderators to make a new channel. Larger servers run into this problem faster than the lower population servers, which is why VU2007, VU2008, VU2009, and I'm guessing VU2010 exist. |
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
A player can have 132 characters without purchasing slots or vet rewards and that is per account. Multiply that by several accounts and/or purchased slots and you would fill up channel slots quickly if you could subscribe to global channels on a per character basis.
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active accounts on high populated servers can be more than 2500 so kicking inactive won't help in this case
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
No 20 channels the way you are suggesting:
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I wast just replying to your suggestion of "15-20" channels that would alleviate the problem and NOT solve it.Quote:
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
An automatic unsubscribe from all global channels after 90 days of account inactivity (unpaid) would help a lot.
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Originally Posted by Ravenswing
Have to agree with Snow Globe. The concept of global channels was created so that you could contact your friends no matter where they were.
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Originally Posted by Ravenswing
They operate by global handle, which is allocated to an account. Making them 'per toon' eliminates the actual purpose of the things.
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Originally Posted by Ravenswing
An automated unsubscribe if inactive for a given period would likely solve most of the issues being described here.
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Originally Posted by Quinch
That sounds like a workable solution - something akin to auto-demote in supergroups, the exact value defined by commandline or UI by mods.
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Originally Posted by Quinch
You could set it to a low number for open channels, since you automatically rejoin a channel when your chat UI loads {try it with /chatloadfile}, and a more relaxed one for private channels where rejoining might be more of a hassle.
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but auto-demote is not and does not imply auto-kick
Thus, "something akin" rather than "just like". In any case, supergroups have a mechanic where a certain action is taken if a member's last time online exceeds X days. Insert standard code rant, of course.
rejoin is always a hassle if you have to repeat it for each toon
Yes, but you automatically rejoin a channel if your chat layout demands it. Run an experiment: Type in /chatsave {that will save your chat layout}, then quit your global channel(s). Then, type in /chatload {which will reload your saved chat layout}, and you'll notice that it has also automatically added you to those chat channels you left a minute ago.
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Which is why I agreed with upping the limit to 15-20 global channels.|
Originally Posted by Vanex_NA
That is another problem, the problems are:
- with only 10 channels per account even if you can kick inactive accounts I'm still unable to join my favourite 11th channel. |
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Originally Posted by Vanex_NA
- when playing toons on ServerW or ServerX I could not be interested in listening ServerY_TF ServerY_badges ServerY_chat ServerY_anything, leaving and rejoining channels is risky because of the 2500 cap and leaving/joining repeatedly is not good
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You are, in reality, asking for server channels. I agreed with that. However, server channels are NOT global channels. I could see 5-10 server channels, or even just a server general chat channel that every character is automatically given:
- Freedom Chat
- Virtue Chat
- Triumph Chat
- Union Chat
- etc.
That is possible, reasonable, and well within the developers ability to make that won't break the budget (so to speak).
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Originally Posted by Vanex_NA
as mentioned before I do not agree with that, moreover if the server can handle VU2007, VU2008 and VU2009 it can handle a VUtotal that is VU2007+VU2008+VU2009 and one account subscribed to the three VUs will be subscribed to only one VUtotal...
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Originally Posted by Vanex_NA
please re-read this: "- removing the 2500 limit, since any server holds way more than 2500 toons"
active accounts on high populated servers can be more than 2500 so kicking inactive won't help in this case |
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Originally Posted by Vanex_NA
for sure won't solve the problems I've mentioned, it will make returning-people unhappy if they were on ServerX and cannot rejoin
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Originally Posted by Vanex_NA
well, I can contact people on the global channels that are neither my friends nor my global friends, I can reach my server-friends and global friends via menus along with the friends channel, no point here
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Originally Posted by Vanex_NA
and is it better to leave and join channels everytime (for every toon if needed) and forever ?
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I can tell you that there are at least 3 channels per server that can be heard by everyone on that channel: Arena, Help Channel, and Architect Entertainment.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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I agree some automatic procedure can help, provided I'm able to rejoin; the problem lies with high populated servers where if you leave a channel the next second there's a risk that you wont be able to rejoin....because of the 2500 limit. It happened to me some time ago, it happens now and is the cause of VU2007 VU2008 VU2009...|
Originally Posted by Quinch
Yes, but you automatically rejoin a channel if your chat layout demands it. ...
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Okay, then you are asking for two entirely different things.
You are, in reality, asking for server channels. I agreed with that. However, server channels are NOT global channels. ... |
As it is now, If they're forming some TF or CC on ServerX and I'm on ServerY I could switch toon and join them, thanks to global channels
I did not ask for infinite channels, my experience says VU2007 + VU2008 + VU2009 usually take up more resources than a single VUtotal...
I think I have to go back at the original post and add more:
1- removing the 2500 limit, since any server holds way more than 2500 toons
single server related channels should allow more accounts, that is: grow or shrink on demand...up to some higher limit.
2- per-server global list, all toons on the same server will share the same global channels list
that is: instead of a list of 10 global channels per account...a list of 110 global channels per account, 10 channels active at any time
3- per-toon global list
that is: instead of 10 globals...1320 to 3960 globals per account, only 10 active at any time
I agree that (3) is not needed, do not consider it then.
suggestions so far + comments:
(1) kick players after a certain (configurable) period of inactivity (Quinch)
- what if there are more than 2500 active users? (hurt returning-users?)
(2) global channels increase to 15-20 (Snow Globe)
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Well, yeah - like I mentioned before, cranking up channel capacity enough would remove the need for population management altogether, and it seems simpler than building functionality for said management from scratch.
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Originally Posted by Vanex_NA
I agree some automatic procedure can help, provided I'm able to rejoin; the problem lies with high populated servers where if you leave a channel the next second there's a risk that you wont be able to rejoin....because of the 2500 limit. It happened to me some time ago, it happens now and is the cause of VU2007 VU2008 VU2009...
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While I agree that having 2-5 global channels takes up more resources, you have sidestepped what is using those resources.|
Originally Posted by Vanex_NA
As it is now, If they're forming some TF or CC on ServerX and I'm on ServerY I could switch toon and join them, thanks to global channels I did not ask for infinite channels, my experience says VU2007 + VU2008 + VU2009 usually take up more resources than a single VUtotal...
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Originally Posted by Vanex_NA
1- removing the 2500 limit, since any server holds way more than 2500 toons single server related channels should allow more accounts, that is: grow or shrink on demand...up to some higher limit.
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Originally Posted by Vanex_NA
2- per-server global list, all toons on the same server will share the same global channels list that is: instead of a list of 10 global channels per account...a list of 110 global channels per account, 10 channels active at any time
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Originally Posted by Vanex_NA
3- per-toon global list
that is: instead of 10 globals...1320 to 3960 globals per account, only 10 active at any time I agree that (3) is not needed, do not consider it then. suggestions so far + comments: (1) kick players after a certain (configurable) period of inactivity (Quinch) - what if there are more than 2500 active users? (hurt returning-users?) (2) global channels increase to 15-20 (Snow Globe) |
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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please explain|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
While I agree that having 2-5 global channels takes up more resources, you have sidestepped what is using those resources.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Okay, how is the game supposed to determine what is or is not a single server channel? These channels are set up by the players, not the developers. Even if a channel becomes popular, there will be people who disagree with how it is run and will form an alternate channel. This has happened with both Triumph (there are bunch of Triumph Watch channels for a variety of reasons) and Liberty. It has happened on Virtue and Freedom as well.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
This, like I keep saying, only intensifies the problem with the channel limits. It also becomes a nightmare for players to keep track of.
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You know what would help a LOT with channel capacity issues? If your account is removed from the channel whenever you log out, and is added back into the channel when you log in. Just like an IRC channel.
Then, the 2500 limit would only apply if 2500 people were trying to log into the channel at the same time. Which is unlikely; and if it does happen, you probably can't have a real conversation there anyway.
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Also sounds feasible and I'm not sure why it's not working like that by design. It certainly sounds simpler to have global channel affiliation stored in character data, rather than the global server.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
You know what would help a LOT with channel capacity issues? If your account is removed from the channel whenever you log out, and is added back into the channel when you log in. Just like an IRC channel.
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I've been trying to explain why all thread. To repeat myself from above:|
Originally Posted by Vanex_NA
please explain
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Okay, to use a real example here. Triumph Watch last year hit 2,500 accounts. About 1,300 of those were inactive accounts. That is 1,300 accounts that joined the channel and then had their accounts gone inactive. There are people with multiple accounts, and some let their second (or third, fouth, or even fifth) account lapse before leaving the channel. Then there are those that just left the game. The channel moderators could not free up those spots, so if people left they ran the risk of not being able to re-join the channel. The only solution that the Developers and GM can provide in this situation is to tell the channel moderators to make a new channel. Larger servers run into this problem faster than the lower population servers, which is why VU2007, VU2008, VU2009, and I'm guessing VU2010 exist. |
- They cannot be removed by the channel moderators.
- The GMs will not remove inactive accounts from the global channels.
- Developer and GM response is for the PLAYERS to make a new channel.
Those are the resources you fail to take into consideration. You want a channel open to leave and join at will, but you are unwilling to remove inactive accounts because they "may" show up. At that point why not have a single "Global" channel that every player in the game can subscribe to?
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Originally Posted by Vanex_NA
A rule can be found, e.g.: those that have full cap + the server name in their name (nah)? or Devs could decide some channels to be server-related and thus have more capacity, obviously you can't prevent people to create alternative channels and leave the dedicated ones.
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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Um, no. Just no. Why do I say that? Because then any thoughts of having moderated channels gets thrown out the window. Given the grief several of the badge channels routinely face, this is just a bad idea for those that prefer to have a specific experience.
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
You know what would help a LOT with channel capacity issues? If your account is removed from the channel whenever you log out, and is added back into the channel when you log in. Just like an IRC channel.
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Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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Simply put you blame inactive accounts for the current situation and don't think it is a software limitation.|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Simply put the inactive accounts are filling the channels.
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
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2- not sure (check my next post) and does not solve the problem of joining the 11th channel
3- I do not agree since it creates confusion and forces people to leave and join many times, that is the reason I started this thread.
ah you want to know why I want to join this 11th channel? someone is continuously creating new channels...
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Those are the resources you fail to take into consideration. You want a channel open to leave and join at will, but you are unwilling to remove inactive accounts because they "may" show up. At that point why not have a single "Global" channel that every player in the game can subscribe to?
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
This brings me back to making a server channel. If you want to see a server channel on another server, then that is something else entirely.
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... have you ever used IRC?
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
Um, no. Just no. Why do I say that? Because then any thoughts of having moderated channels gets thrown out the window. Given the grief several of the badge channels routinely face, this is just a bad idea for those that prefer to have a specific experience.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
(pointing at the responsible)
You did it! You forced the hand and KICKED me out of a global channel (Virtue TFs) even if it was not possible eh? and I am an ACTIVE player, at the moment.
I guess it is You that set it to be a private channel so I can't rejoin it, unfortunately it is still appearing like a "default" channel for the user logged on that server..shame on you!
channel closed? I can see there are players online..this is ridiculous.
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/signed
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Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
You know what would help a LOT with channel capacity issues? If your account is removed from the channel whenever you log out, and is added back into the channel when you log in. Just like an IRC channel.
Then, the 2500 limit would only apply if 2500 people were trying to log into the channel at the same time. Which is unlikely; and if it does happen, you probably can't have a real conversation there anyway. |
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While I'm not (or ever was) on Virtue TFs, I think I can tell you from experience with Triumph Watch (Triumph's main badge channel) what is happening there. Of the 1637 accounts signed onto the channel 1619 are likely inactive. Those 18 that you see on? They're likely to be the channel moderators that help those that come back to migrate to the new, active channel and those in the process of transition to the new channel. How many active people were on Virtue TFs 2010? Likely many more than 18.|
Originally Posted by Vanex_NA
(pointing at the responsible)
You did it! You forced the hand and KICKED me out of a global channel (Virtue TFs) even if it was not possible eh? and I am an ACTIVE player, at the moment. I guess it is You that set it to be a private channel so I can't rejoin it, unfortunately it is still appearing like a "default" channel for the user logged on that server..shame on you! channel closed? I can see there are players online..this is ridiculous. |
From what I can see, you are experiencing a version of Brockian Ultra Criket's rule three:
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| Rule Three: Put your team and the opposing team in a large field and build a high wall around them. The reason for this is that, though the game is a major spectator sport, the frustration experienced by the audience at not actually being able to see whats going on leads them to imagine that its a lot more exciting than it really is. A crowd that has just watched a rather humdrum game experiences far less life affirmation than a crowd that believes it has just missed the most dramatic event in sporting history. |
A channel search of "Virtue" should show all the channels and which has the most active people. Just join that.
Triumph: White Succubus: 50 Ill/Emp/PF Snow Globe: 50 Ice/FF/Ice Strobe: 50 PB Shi Otomi: 50 Ninja/Ninjistu/GW Stalker My other characters
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I like those default channels instead, I'm complaining because of:|
Originally Posted by Snow Globe
So you what you are complaining about is not being able to get onto closed channels because there might be someone that didn't move that might not have moved? If they didn't move they likely forgot that they've subscribed to the channel.
A channel search of "Virtue" should show all the channels and which has the most active people. Just join that. |
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Originally Posted by Snow Globe
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2- if someone did this and he's not a GM then he hacked the system using some exploit and the rules regarding that are clear
3- why a "default" channel has to be closed? I'd close any other channel but the default ones
4- if and only if, for any technical reason, the channel cap has to be 2500 and there is no other mean to fix the problem (I will never believe this) then: this year I'd keep every active account on Virtue TFs and move the inactives to Virtue TFs 2009, next year move inactives to Virtue TFs 2010 so to keep inactives out of the default channel, and so on. Virtue TFs would always hold active accounts, inactives would be on Virtue TFs YYYY.
11 servers and only 10 global channels is not enough also because of the 2500 limit per each channel.
I can't leave channels to avoid the risk of not being able to join them again.
I don't need to join 100 channels at the same time, 10 is fair enough so I'd suggest:
- removing the 2500 limit, since any server holds way more than 2500 toons
further improvement:
- per-server global list, all toons on the same server will share the same global channels list
advanced setting:
- per-toon global list