How does stacked Force Feedback proc work?
By
Another_Fan,
Posted on: 2010-02-03 05:15 in The Market and Inventions
Huh. I never even thought of checking the wiki, even though I remember seeing that chart before.
Is that proc even worth using? It seems like even under the best circumstances, it would have more downtime than up.
@Roderick
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5 seconds out of every 15 with 100% haste still seems good to me. Just use it in an AoE knockdown that has a cooldown+activation of 15 seconds, or try to time it to simulate that.
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Originally Posted by Roderick
Is that proc even worth using?
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If you nail it, it works out to an average global recharge of about 5%. I tested it and actually wound up running between 2-3% global recharge mainly due to the amount of time it took to go from spawn to spawn in regular mission.
In AE designed to farm missions you can get and stay much closer to the 5%.
If you aren't farming the benefit is questionable especially considering that you can get 7.5% from a single IO that works 100% of the time.
I don't really consider the proc worth the slot it takes.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
So, let me get this right, based on the wiki, it's better for me to have only one than to have two with their suppressed periods blocking each other's activation.
If so, dammit.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
If you nail it, it works out to an average global recharge of about 5%. I tested it and actually wound up running between 2-3% global recharge mainly due to the amount of time it took to go from spawn to spawn in regular mission.
In AE designed to farm missions you can get and stay much closer to the 5%. If you aren't farming the benefit is questionable especially considering that you can get 7.5% from a single IO that works 100% of the time. I don't really consider the proc worth the slot it takes. |
That doesn't seem right. The wiki didn't specify the suppression time but I believe its 10 seconds.
using
5 seconds of +100% recharge
10 seconds of +0% recharge
you get 33% avg +recharge
Now in in a power with a 90 second recharge (no particular reason (looks skyward))
No recharge enhance
proc fires rechage time is 85 seconds
100% enhance
Base recharge in 45 seconds
the proc fires you get 42.5 second recharge
100% enhance and 100% global recharge bonus
Base 30 second recharge time
Proc fires recharge time is 28.3333 seconds
you go from 5.5 % in the worst case to 17% in the very highly enhanced case.
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The wiki is WRONG! Alright, Caveat, this proc changes with some frequency and it might have changed back again.|
Originally Posted by brophog02
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But, the last time I tested this proc (i15) the suppression had been removed completely. If the proc fired while force feedback was active it would simply refresh the 5 second timer (It will not stack). I would completely disregard the wiki page.
Yes, the proc used to work that way, but the suppression was added in because the proc used to fire 100% of the time. The suppression was added in as a quick fix to counteract that problem. Then, after they fixed the 100% firing, the suppression was left in until it was finally removed (I think I first became aware it had been fixed in i14 when testing the change that made pets no longer inherit recharge).
I post about this with some frequency, but have never gone through the hassle of signing up to change the wiki, but I suppost I should do that so that false information stops being disseminated.
Draggynn on Virtue: lvl 50 Storm/Psi, 1389 badges
Draggynn's Guide to Storm Summoning(Gale-Tornado, updated 6/25/2011)
Avatar by Wassy full reference here
It's not good to rely on it for a constant buff.
That said? Once in a while when i get my long-recharge powers recharging 3-8 seconds faster and they pop up just in time when i need them because the proc went off a minute ago? It's awesome!
-STEELE =)
Allied to all sides so that no matter what, I'll come out on top!
Oh, and Crimson demands you play this arc-> Twisted Knives (MA Arc #397769)
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It only has a 10% per target chance to proc (actually less than that since there's a 95% cap on chance to hit each target).|
Originally Posted by Another_Fan
That doesn't seem right. The wiki didn't specify the suppression time but I believe its 10 seconds.
using 5 seconds of +100% recharge 10 seconds of +0% recharge you get 33% avg +recharge Now in in a power with a 90 second recharge (no particular reason (looks skyward)) No recharge enhance proc fires rechage time is 85 seconds 100% enhance Base recharge in 45 seconds the proc fires you get 42.5 second recharge 100% enhance and 100% global recharge bonus Base 30 second recharge time Proc fires recharge time is 28.3333 seconds you go from 5.5 % in the worst case to 17% in the very highly enhanced case. |
In cone powers (like Energy Torrent) you have a target cap of 10. In TAOE powers you have a target cap of 16. In MOST regular missions you'll usually be facing much less than the target cap of mobs.
Even at the target cap of mobs during your alpha, subsequent applications of the power will be against fewer mobs (since you will have defeated some or even most of them and you will have scattered at least some of them due to knockback).
If you have the proc placed in a power that has an exact cast + rech time of 15 seconds, the subsequent application will occur during the supression period due to the recharge provided by the proc itself.
Also I haven't been able to get into the sweet spot with any particular KB power and IO sets (especially when hasten isn't perma).
In most regular missions I found the numbers I listed and in a 30 minute play session wound up with an average boost to global recharge of 2-3% depending on the character.
Running designed to farm missions I came out around a 5% global boost in the same 30 minute period.
I assure you that the proc isn't as good as it looks on paper and invite you to test it for yourself.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Quote:
Milady, unless you have tested this since i15 came out, you are working on old information. There is no longer a suppression on the force feedback proc. If you have tested since i15 then this proc continues to lay claim to the most changed proc and they have reinstated the suppression timer.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
If you have the proc placed in a power that has an exact cast + rech time of 15 seconds, the subsequent application will occur during the supression period due to the recharge provided by the proc itself.
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Draggynn on Virtue: lvl 50 Storm/Psi, 1389 badges
Draggynn's Guide to Storm Summoning(Gale-Tornado, updated 6/25/2011)
Avatar by Wassy full reference here
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Draggynn
Milady, unless you have tested this since i15 came out, you are working on old information. There is no longer a suppression on the force feedback proc. If you have tested since i15 then this proc continues to lay claim to the most changed proc and they have reinstated the suppression timer.
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I'm unaware of such changes, and given how powerful it was before suppression was implemented, I'm highly suspect that they would revert it to that state.
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It was so powerful before suppression was implemented because it was firing 100% of the time. Just verified on test alternating with gale and psionic tornado while monitoring real numbers that you can get the proc to fire again two seconds after the proc has fired. Verified by someone else using the proc in dwarf form PB attacks on live.|
Originally Posted by brophog02
I'm unaware of such changes, and given how powerful it was before suppression was implemented, I'm highly suspect that they would revert it to that state.
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However I never saw the proc fire while the buff was active, so there may now be a suppression period while the buff is active that prohibits another from being cast, but there no longer appears to be a suppression period after the buff has expired. (Although an unusual behavior, this would be consistent with the way magic fortunes work). I also no longer see the former behavior of a partial buff occurring after the suppression has expired.
more testing will need to be done to determine exactly what the current rules are, but I can say with complete certainty that the wiki page is no longer accurate.
Draggynn on Virtue: lvl 50 Storm/Psi, 1389 badges
Draggynn's Guide to Storm Summoning(Gale-Tornado, updated 6/25/2011)
Avatar by Wassy full reference here
Quote:
If that's the case it was stealth buff. I'd be surprised if it was changed on purpose and suspect that it's much more likely that the IO is simply bugged again but in a different way.
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Originally Posted by Draggynn
Milady, unless you have tested this since i15 came out, you are working on old information. There is no longer a suppression on the force feedback proc. If you have tested since i15 then this proc continues to lay claim to the most changed proc and they have reinstated the suppression timer.
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-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
It only has a 10% per target chance to proc (actually less than that since there's a 95% cap on chance to hit each target).
In cone powers (like Energy Torrent) you have a target cap of 10. In TAOE powers you have a target cap of 16. In MOST regular missions you'll usually be facing much less than the target cap of mobs. Even at the target cap of mobs during your alpha, subsequent applications of the power will be against fewer mobs (since you will have defeated some or even most of them and you will have scattered at least some of them due to knockback). If you have the proc placed in a power that has an exact cast + rech time of 15 seconds, the subsequent application will occur during the supression period due to the recharge provided by the proc itself. Also I haven't been able to get into the sweet spot with any particular KB power and IO sets (especially when hasten isn't perma). In most regular missions I found the numbers I listed and in a 30 minute play session wound up with an average boost to global recharge of 2-3% depending on the character. Running designed to farm missions I came out around a 5% global boost in the same 30 minute period. I assure you that the proc isn't as good as it looks on paper and invite you to test it for yourself. |
I think I see where we are diverging. I am using a very narrow window for looking at the recharge effect. I am also using it in powers where it has zero chance to suppress and in general will only be used on 8 or more targets (usually full spawns set to 8)
Either way I have to go back to test and take a look again. If it can be placed in faster charging powers without effectively negating it, that would be a whole new ball game.
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The last known data for how the proc worked on RedTomax's site (known to be a couple of issues out of date) shows no suppression, but a design that precludes any stacking. The RedTomax info has the proc having a 10% chance of granting the user a temporary power. You are allowed to have one instance of this temp power at a time. It's the temp power that grants the 100% recharge, which is flagged to not stack from the same caster.|
Originally Posted by Draggynn
However I never saw the proc fire while the buff was active, so there may now be a suppression period while the buff is active that prohibits another from being cast, but there no longer appears to be a suppression period after the buff has expired. (Although an unusual behavior, this would be consistent with the way magic fortunes work). I also no longer see the former behavior of a partial buff occurring after the suppression has expired.
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This would result in being able to trigger the 5% chance any number of times, but only getting one 100% recharge bonus at a time as a result. The 100% buff and the temp power itself both last 5 seconds.
All of this seems to match your description.
Edit: The use of an intermediary temp power seems to be a standard means of preventing powers (of all sorts, not just proc effects) from stacking even if applied by different powers. In the case of the Achilles Heel proc, which also uses this mechanism and affects a different target than the caster, it even prevents it from stacking from different casters.
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
Just tested this last night:
lvl 50 ss/wp brute with 85% global recharge, 3 slotted hasten, and the force feedback proc in footstomp. I used a mission where I could activate foot stomp as soon as it recharged and always have max targets. The proc went off on the majority of foot stomps, and allowed me to have permahasten.
Apparently it has changed then.
That's nice to know. I think I still have some blasters with a few on them. 
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Alrighty then, that sounds like independent confirmation to me. Anyone feel like changing the wiki so that we don't have to have this conversation again? (I've never done anything on the wiki and am afraid of screwing up formatting and whatnot if I try).
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Originally Posted by UberGuy
The last known data for how the proc worked on RedTomax's site (known to be a couple of issues out of date) shows no suppression, but a design that precludes any stacking. The RedTomax info has the proc having a 10% chance of granting the user a temporary power. You are allowed to have one instance of this temp power at a time. It's the temp power that grants the 100% recharge, which is flagged to not stack from the same caster.
This would result in being able to trigger the 5% chance any number of times, but only getting one 100% recharge bonus at a time as a result. The 100% buff and the temp power itself both last 5 seconds. All of this seems to match your description. Edit: The use of an intermediary temp power seems to be a standard means of preventing powers (of all sorts, not just proc effects) from stacking even if applied by different powers. In the case of the Achilles Heel proc, which also uses this mechanism and affects a different target than the caster, it even prevents it from stacking from different casters. |
Draggynn on Virtue: lvl 50 Storm/Psi, 1389 badges
Draggynn's Guide to Storm Summoning(Gale-Tornado, updated 6/25/2011)
Avatar by Wassy full reference here
Quote:
Is it still bugged and not working when exemplared? *did not fire once during an Exemped Citadel TF, Lvl 38 MA/Inv, lvl 30 IO*
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Originally Posted by Kahlan_
Just tested this last night:
lvl 50 ss/wp brute with 85% global recharge, 3 slotted hasten, and the force feedback proc in footstomp. I used a mission where I could activate foot stomp as soon as it recharged and always have max targets. The proc went off on the majority of foot stomps, and allowed me to have permahasten. |
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I know that the FF proc doesn't stack with itself, but I have a few questions about what happens if the effect tries to stack.
First, if I have it in two different powers, and it triggers from both at the same time, do they stack (200% total), or is it the same as if the same as if they were stacked from a single power (only 100%)?
Second, just how long is the +Recharge anyways?
Third, assume I have the proc slotted in a power that recharges one second faster than the duration of the proc. If I'm spamming the power as fast as it comes back, and it fires twice in a row, does the second extend the duration of the first (stacked "Doesn't stack from same caster") or not fire at all (power suppressed until previous wears off)?
@Roderick