Lower the toHit debuff in Group Fly
By
Adeon Hawkwood,
Posted on: 2010-01-10 09:48 in Suggestions and Ideas
Personally I would propose removing the tohit debuff entirely. Fly itself used to have one too, I believe, which was removed when they introduced travel suppression. Somehow the same logic didn't make its way over to group fly as well.
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I say, Remove Group Fly altogether. It's slow, uncomfortable, and it's a HUGE griefing tool.
Replace it with something else... A toggle, perhaps, that would give protection against Stun/Hold/Knockback powers. Aerobalance?
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I'd love to see that but I'm having a feeling that the devs might not go for that so I simply proposed a reduction.|
Originally Posted by Rebel_Scum
Personally I would propose removing the tohit debuff entirely.
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However, I think there is also a mechanics issue that should be tweaked too though I don't know how feasible it is in the coding. Either the ability to decline (which some have suggested but I don't think it'll work since it's a toggle and not a click) or make it so that the power simply does not affect players who are less than 5ft above the ground. Some powers in the game already have a "does not affect airborne opponents" restriction so this would make it that teammate will have to actually jump for the Group Fly effect to affect them. People who jump in it accidentally can simply use the X button (or whatever they have set to "descend while flying" to simply negate the effect.
I've said it before, I'll say it again. What I'd like to see for group fly: change it to a click, PBAoE power, 'grant flight'. Basically, a flying version of inertial reduction. This could have a long duration but deniable application- the same kind of popup that tp friend has. There could be a toggle in options next to the tp option to automatically accept/deny granted flight. The overlap would mean that flight could be passed up for grant flight, so that flight/grant flight would not have so much overlap in use. Flight would be the easy, toggle based version, grant flight being the timer-based option that uses endurance up-front. Remove the debuff.
This solves the big gripes with group fly:
1. It forces the team to fly. Many players dislike flight during combat. With a 'decline' function, this would be a goner.
2. It drops tag-alongs that get out of range. With a click-based application, there is no limit on range. As all applied powers blink when giving out, the player would have a way of knowing their flight was about over.
3. It ruins accuracy. This is the ONLY ally-based team debuff in the game. Isn't the -tohit 25%? that makes it a more potent debuff to accuracy than running a defender dark miasma toggle (-18.75% tohit) against your team. Getting rid of this just makes sense.
4. This is lesser of a concern, but there is too little difference between flight/group flight in usage to justify both choices just to the user. (Besides masterminds) This would make it a bit more unique for solo-play, and make it less situational than it is right now.
The -hit debuff is horrible and, really, pointless. I don't get the reasoning..ok, the MODERN reasoning behind it.
I can just imagine it being something Jack would dream up >_>
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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I don't get the reasoning for it back then.|
Originally Posted by Techbot Alpha
The -hit debuff is horrible and, really, pointless. I don't get the reasoning..ok, the MODERN reasoning behind it.
I can just imagine it being something Jack would dream up >_> |
"We're going to make a giant aura that will make you fly through the air slowly with less power accuracy and it cannot be canceled out. Hope you don't run into jerks who abuse the power!"
Just a quick thing... Is there ANYONE with a practical use for Group Fly? Considering Level 14 isn't too hard to achieve, I'd think it would be rendered useless.
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Masterminds...|
Originally Posted by Sigium
Just a quick thing... Is there ANYONE with a practical use for Group Fly?
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Being a ferry for lowbies.
In a highly coordinated team, explicitly opting to be the travel minded one while everyone else has either a non-Fly power or no travel power at all.
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To the reason for the debuff:|
Originally Posted by Sigium
I don't get the reasoning for it back then.
"We're going to make a giant aura that will make you fly through the air slowly with less power accuracy and it cannot be canceled out. Hope you don't run into jerks who abuse the power!" Just a quick thing... Is there ANYONE with a practical use for Group Fly? Considering Level 14 isn't too hard to achieve, I'd think it would be rendered useless. |
I believe it all comes down to the original design intent: travel powers were NOT meant to function in combat. For whatever reason, there was, and continues, in some ways, to be an unwillingness to embrace the use of flight/superspeed/teleportation/superleaping within combat. I believe part of the concern comes from the way the engine works...a lot of things in the way powers and AI function dare 'flat.' That is to say, they tend to have a very limited way of actually dealing with 'target is above/below' in more complex situations, while they do well with target is in front/beside/behind. I't's also not well set up for moving combat. Many powers function on placement/clumping/stationary targets. To keep players from taking advantage of this, hefty debuffs/endurance usage was put in place. These have since been been lessened.
As to why take it? not everyone has flight, and there are times where it's helpful to grant it (duh-hyuk) on the fly. This said, raptor packs from mayhems/safeguards/vendors have made this pretty much a pointless power.
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GFly already has issues with people dropping out of range of the buff. Giving them suppression would make the problem worse.
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Originally Posted by Rebel_Scum
Somehow the same logic didn't make its way over to group fly as well.
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http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
My own odd proposal for group fly:
-Remove ToHit Debuff
-Slow it down till it's only 30% faster than hover
-Add Defense buff equal to Hover or Combat Jumping
-Five it flight's end drain
-Grant fall damage immunity while for once the flight affect wears off for a period of time equal to however long it would take to fall from the "top" of the Shadow Shard to the "Bottom".
-Be appreciated on teams
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
City of Heroes is a game about freedom of expression and variety of experiences far more so than it is about representing any one theme, topic or genre.
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Well, yeah...no one ever said Jack was smart |
Originally Posted by Sigium
I don't get the reasoning for it back then.
"We're going to make a giant aura that will make you fly through the air slowly with less power accuracy and it cannot be canceled out. Hope you don't run into jerks who abuse the power!" Just a quick thing... Is there ANYONE with a practical use for Group Fly? Considering Level 14 isn't too hard to achieve, I'd think it would be rendered useless. |
I sometimes use it with my bots, although I am thinking of dropping it. Just, yeah...dropping them on an unsuspecting mob is kinda fun ^^ that and they look cool with jet-feet going.
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Originally Posted by Zwillinger
GG, I would tell you that "I am killing you with my mind", but I couldn't find an emoticon to properly express my sentiment.
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Originally Posted by Captain_Photon
NOTE: The Incarnate System is basically farming for IOs on a larger scale, and with more obtrusive lore.
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Remove/lower the to hit debuff
Add a defense component.
I guarantee the power will get some more love.
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--The Question, JLU
I think aside from the debuff component, the biggest issue with GFly is that there are a fair number of powers which will not activate if you're in the air. Some of these could probably be changed to allow activation in the air (such as Hotfeet, since you can fly with it on, you just can't turn it on while flying), but others don't really make sense to use in flight (like Foot Stomp).
http://www.fimfiction.net/story/36641/My-Little-Exalt
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Allowing Kheldians in Dwarf form to fly (admittedly, Hamidon Raid is the only place I can see any use for a flying Dwarf though).
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Originally Posted by Zamuel
Masterminds...
Being a ferry for lowbies. In a highly coordinated team, explicitly opting to be the travel minded one while everyone else has either a non-Fly power or no travel power at all. |
The trick with this power is this: its purpose is to help others fly, without being so good that people skip flight. It suffers numerous concerns:
1. The way its speed and range function, it somewhat fails at providing others with flight Other people can fall out of it easily when the anchoring character out-paces them, or they otherwise leave the range.
2. The aforementioned tohit debuff makes it prohibitive to use in battle.
3. Some powers cannot work in the current forced flight.
4. Many players are uncomfortable with fighting in flight, and there is no 'opt out' for this power. When they play along, there's concern #2 to worry about.
5. Though this is not within the power, the mayhem/safeguard/grandville/zulu jetpacks are more flexible and reliable.
The only real reason to use this, in my mind, is to provide flight for pets or longer term flight for players in Hammi raids. Even at that concerns #1 & #2 make it questionable in usage. Which is a shame, as it is one of those really cool looking powers.
It's one the strongest to hit debuffs in the game but it affects your own teammates. Since Group Fly is already both slower than Fly and has a higher endurance cost it seems like those would be balancing points in their own right.
Well intentioned Group Flights can still interfere with Grounded, Assassin's Strike, and Super Speed. Plant Control and a few other powersets show that the game can differentiate between airborne and grounded enemies and players. Therefore, by making Group Fly not affect allies on the ground, it will have vastly fewer negative affects on their gameplay. If they want to fly, they can simply jump and the GF cloud will take effect while flying downwards to the ground will cancel it.
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