Assuming a ridiculous amount of coin is DB still the way to go for DPS?


bAss_ackwards

 

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Originally Posted by Santorican View Post
Check out my lastest build Igor, its in one of two dark/shield threads I made lol. Not sure which one though lol.
Yeah, I saw it. I like the build a lot but I like having 320ish% regen to go along with the healing from siphon... I think you also ended up sacrificing grant cover and I like my debuff resist at 90+.
So many demands and so little flexibility lol


 

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Oh right duh, I thought you were THEN attacking the pylon *facepalm*, math is way too hard when you just wake up


 

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Originally Posted by Santorican View Post
Without the help of inventions yes shields does have a lot less defense debuff resistance then super reflexes. However with double stacked Active Defense with 3 Membrane Exposures, Battle Agility at around 50% enhanced defense, and Grant Cover you will be at 95% defense debuff resistance.

I have to point out that with Fire/Shield you don't require a lot of recharge to have a good attack string so that allows you to focus on beefing up your resistances, regeneration, and recovery.

With Dark/Shield you'll need to focus somewhat on recharge if you want to obtain the best attack chain. It leaves your resistances wanting, but due to having Siphon Life and Dark Consumption you won't need to focus so much on passive regeneration and recovery.
Quick question on the Defense Debuff Resist: How much global Recharge do you need to have it double stacked all the time?


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It's 200s recharge for 120s duration

I use 2 membranes (66.6% recharges) and 157% global which shows the recharge of 61.7s in mids


 

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Originally Posted by Igor_The_Mad View Post
Yeah, I saw it. I like the build a lot but I like having 320ish% regen to go along with the healing from siphon... I think you also ended up sacrificing grant cover and I like my debuff resist at 90+.
So many demands and so little flexibility lol
That's one thing I'm trying to work into the build I think I will end up eliminating the Blaze set and pick up Body as well as Grant cover


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Dark/Shield Build Thread

 

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Originally Posted by Santorican View Post
That's one thing I'm trying to work into the build I think I will end up eliminating the Blaze set and pick up Body as well as Grant cover
Yeah. I ITF a lot with Virya and if I don't have 90+ def debuff res she starts to feel squishy pretty fast. Those cimerorans pack a nasty punch.
As far as body vs blaze goes, SD + Shield charge is really powerful and I find that it's sufficient AOE for me. It's not spines/fire but it wipes out spawns quite handily.


 

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Originally Posted by Igor_The_Mad View Post
Yeah. I ITF a lot with Virya and if I don't have 90+ def debuff res she starts to feel squishy pretty fast. Those cimerorans pack a nasty punch.
My BS/SD did over 200 ITFs before I got burnt out on them (haven't done one in a couple months now).

I ran at a little under 90% DDR, and it was just fine for ITF, even considering I played like a psycho, never turning off Super Speed, soloing a lot, and being first to attack everything. I died maybe 5 times in those 200+ runs, playing in perma-scrapperlock mode.

It's laughably simple actually: just keep a couple purples in your tray and monitor your defense #s. They start to drop, you pop a purple; problem solved.

Shield Defense is a very, very powerful set, especially a late-game build kitted out with IOs. Lack of DDR was never a huge issue for me. It made the Positron + Manticore AV fight pretty tough, but I can't think of any other time I ever wished for SR.

The list that Werner compiled from the Pylon Results thread says something pretty loud and clear about /SD.


 

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Originally Posted by Santorican View Post
That shield charge needs to be hit with a nerf bat hard? lol
Shh! I don't think the devs know.... em/ shifty eyes....


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It's not shield charge that puts SD on the top of those pylon soloing times.
Maxed AAO is like popping 3 small reds all the time. It's serious business :P


 

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Well, what that list in particular says to me is that choice of secondary (ie. Shield or not Shield) has more to do with top-end DPS than choice of primary.


 

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Originally Posted by Gaidin View Post
I just started a DM/Shield toon an hour ago, and was wondering what your take on it's AoE if you go the Blaze EPP route? I would think that SD + Shield Charge + Fireball + DC if needed would make for some decent AoE potential. I'm making it for AV soloing, but the ability to have a second build and go for more AoE is a plan as well.
Fireball adds a lot of aoe to dm, but dm has nothing to match FSC, and FSC is much better than fireball. That's not to say dm is bad, it's just not at the same level as FM in terms of aoe dmg. But you will have higher survivability with siphon life on DM.

The reason I like fm/sd better is because, like I said, it shines in more situations, and more often. I team a lot, and when I solo, I'm set for x8, and there's no question my fm will kill faster than my dm. On rare occasion, I might need to pop a green insp or 2 on the fire where on the dm the dmg spikes are taken care of with siphon life. There's really nothing I can do to bridge the killing gap though, that's why I'd suggest fm.

*And as I said earlier, if you're going for no insp av soloing, that is one area where dm/sd has a clear advantage due to the self heal.


 

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Originally Posted by Chaos_String View Post
Well, what that list in particular says to me is that choice of secondary (ie. Shield or not Shield) has more to do with top-end DPS than choice of primary.
Bill did a list with just the primary doing the dmg and fm and dm both were top performers. SD just widens the gap for the primaries that go with SD.


 

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Originally Posted by Santorican View Post
That shield charge needs to be hit with a nerf bat hard? lol
Yeah, people are enjoying it! Change it to the energy transfer animation and have it shower enemies with flowers!


 

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Originally Posted by Cyber_naut View Post
Bill did a list with just the primary doing the dmg and fm and dm both were top performers. SD just widens the gap for the primaries that go with SD.
BillZ's thread showed Broadsword ranking among the worst primaries for high-end DPS; yet my BS/SD build outperformed every single non-shield build on record in pylon time.

The point remains: choice of secondary (Shield vs. not-Shield) has more to do with high-end DPS than choice of primary.


 

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Originally Posted by Fury Flechette View Post
Wow, that's an eye opener. I didn't think fire/shield would have that many results near the top. I haven't looked at that thread in quite some time.

I once posted a thread in this forum titled Fire/Shield FOTM and remember getting roundly castigated for claiming without justification that Fire/Shield, especially Fire/Shield/Blaze would become one of the most popular scrapper variants.

While I'm not sure whether or not Fire/Shield is more popular than Electric/Shield (better AoE) or Dark Melee/Shield (better AV soloer), I think a lot of players like the fact that it's a good compromise choice between for those who like AoE and single target. It is however easy to see that it has become a very popular variant of scrapper.
I have no problems with fire shields and AV I just stuck aidself issue solved


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Originally Posted by Werner View Post
Didn't they just finish BUFFING Shield Charge to use the Scrapper AT modifier correctly? I wouldn't expect them to suddenly nerf it again after buffing it.
I agree with you, but then the change to Energy Transfer is especially bewildering to me viewed under that lens.


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Originally Posted by Werner View Post
I think what you want is Dark Melee/Shield Defense. It and Fiery Melee/Shield Defense are your top DPS options, but the Dark Melee has more survivability in AV fights due to Siphon Life. Fiery Melee would likely be the better choice for regular play, though, as it has a lot higher AoE capability. The new difficulty sliders allow you to get full-team-sized spawns while solo, so AoE is, at least for me, a lot more attractive now.

Also see the Rikti Pylon Results Thread for a whole lot of examples of real-world DPS rather than calculated DPS. Mind you, we've gotten better and better at our calculations, and theoretical maximums are interesting, but I'd still consider Pylon soloing times on actual builds that people actually play to be the gold standard.

Here is a quick summary of the thread. Keep in mind that without knowing the builds, we could be comparing SOs to purples and PvP IOs. I know we're comparing DPS builds to survivability builds. So the position on this list is merely suggestive of a combination's potential DPS, not conclusive.

276 Fiery Melee/Shield Defense - Iggy Kamakaze
267 Dark Melee/Shield Defense - Igor The Mad
262 Fiery Melee/Shield Defense - Machine Man X
259 Fiery Melee/Shield Defense - Norse
255 Dark Melee/Shield Defense - Besserwisser
249 Fiery Melee/Shield Defense - SkylineGTR
243 Fiery Melee/Shield Defense - Primal Dark
242 Dark Melee/Shield Defense - MrLiberty
241 Dark Melee/Shield Defense - Powerforge
239 Fiery Melee/Shield Defense - Effy On Malibu
236 Broad Sword/Shield Defense - Chaos String
219 Katana/Super Reflexes - Laevateinn
219 Dark Melee/Shield Defense - _Mojo_
210 Katana/Regeneration - Iggy Kamakaze
205 Claws/Super Reflexes - Powerforge
198 Claws/Super Reflexes - Iggy Kamakaze
196 Dual Blades/Invulnerability - Nihilii
194 Claws/Super Reflexes - Bill Z Bubba
190 Dual Blades/Willpower - Myriad
185 Katana/Regen - Werner
184 Dark Melee/Super Reflexes - Larac
180 Dark Melee/Super Reflexes - Werner
177 Katana/Dark Armor - Werner
175 Katana/Willpower - Iggy Kamakaze
174 Katana/Willpower - AgentMountaineer
174 Martial Arts/Shield Defense - Broken Prey
170 Claws/Regeneration - Iggy Kamakaze
167 Martial Arts/Super Reflexes - American Dynamo
165 Broad Sword/Invulnerability - Hopeling
160 Katana/Fiery Aura - Iggy Kamakaze
160 Dual Blades/Willpower - Soul Fane
152 Dual Blades/Regeneration - BrokenPrey
150 Katana/Dark Armor - ShadowBeast NA
149 Martial Arts/Regeneration - SpiderTeo OC
148 Dark Melee/Invulnerability - Aliana Blue

Too add to those results, I calculated just over 300 DPS for a Dark Melee/Shield Defense based on the time for an AV fight by Shred Monkey. Now, that was a lot shorter than a Pylon fight, so luck may have played a much bigger factor, but it's still something to consider in regards to top end performance.
I think what's really revealing about that list isn't so much how DM and Fire dominate the primaries, but how there's a huge gap between /Shield and /(everything else).

Being a former fan of DB and now recently a renewed fan of DB (Shred Monkey is out of retirement in a big way). The thing that DB has that the others do not is the fact that it's biggest attack is a 90 deg cone. The splash damage to other badguys gets overlooked because it doesn't show up in a pylon test, or in the theoretical DPS threads. But it definatly is noticable in gameplay. Sweeping Strikes in Dual Blades is, in my opinion, the mest melee attack in the game for hitting multiple targets with big burst damage. (ok... shield charge and lightning rod do better, but I still believe those 2 attacks are broken).

I also believe DB can do better then it's performed in the above list. I've never actually timed a pylon kill with Shred. Now that he's rebuilt, I should do that sometime and see where it fits in.


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I just want to note that a lot of those /SD pylon times are achieved only with saturated AAO. And you don't always get saturated AAO in normal gameplay, since teammates are killing things, stuff gets scattered/knocked around, you don't always have the luxury of perfect positioning, etc. Even playing solo, I rarely bother to get fully saturated AAO, especially vs enemies that don't herd well. So the advantage SD has over non-SD builds is much less than the list of pylon times suggest.

I actually tried soloing a pylon on my Fire/SD without saturated AAO, and took around 9 minutes (vs 7 for my Kat/SR).


 

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Originally Posted by Laevateinn View Post
I just want to note that a lot of those /SD pylon times are achieved only with saturated AAO. And you don't always get saturated AAO in normal gameplay, since teammates are killing things, stuff gets scattered/knocked around, you don't always have the luxury of perfect positioning, etc. Even playing solo, I rarely bother to get fully saturated AAO, especially vs enemies that don't herd well.
While all that is true, if you're headed into a situation where sustained single-target DPS is going to be a critical issue (like soloing an AV), it's usually easy to arrange circumstances so that you'll receive a substantial buff from AAO.

And to Shred_Monkey:

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I think what's really revealing about that list isn't so much how DM and Fire dominate the primaries, but how there's a huge gap between /Shield and /(everything else).
Exactly what I was saying upthread. But I agree, too, that a DPS-specced DB/SR ought to solo pylons much faster than the DB builds currently on record.


 

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Originally Posted by Werner View Post
Didn't they just finish BUFFING Shield Charge to use the Scrapper AT modifier correctly? I wouldn't expect them to suddenly nerf it again after buffing it.
Yeah they did lol. It went from being really good to being plaid. Its just stupidly powerful now lol.


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Dark/Shield Build Thread

 

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I can damage cap my shield charge.
By myself.
It's stupid amounts of damage - it oneshots +3 minions.

Shield charge is so powerful that I don't really care whether I'm soloing rikti warzone missions at -1x8 or +3x8. I just herd the spawn, soul drain, and shield charge them into the ground. Lieutenants take a bit longer, and bosses might require a full attack chain to kill, but the minions evaporate - which is why I don't really care that DM has no aoe.

However...
I think that the defining power of /shields is not SC, but AAO.
It's trivially easy to saturate it, since AAO is an enormously strong taunt power. I was doing a STF and if the stoner (who had more IO's than a... really... io'd thing...) did not taunt on cooldown I was stripping aggro off with my high DPS + taunt aura. Saturated AAO is worth slightly more than 3 small reds. Try running around on your non-shielder with 3 reds popped all the time and see how you like it, and you'll have some idea of how powerful AAO really is.

I don't think the devs planned for /shield to be so dominant, but they probably should have seen it coming, seeing as the scrapper community is populated by, as one person put it, "numbersraping powergamers".

Weaknesses of shield are that while it performs at a (mostly) acceptable level with SO's, it doesn't particularly shine. Shield charge has a very long (90 sec base) recharge. It can't cap its defense debuff resistance without some major shenanigans involving HO's - and this is more of a weakness than anyone cares to admit, considering how much time most people spend doing ITF's.

Another off-putting characteristic is that it's confusing as heck to learn the powers. Willpower (for instance)... ok, +regen auto, +hp auto, +regen toggle/taunt aura, +recovery auto... got it, and you're off!

Shields, on the other hand starts out with the normal +melee/range/aoe toggles, a +hp/resist auto, clicky mez protection (which can't be perma out of the box, ugh), then a +dmg taunt aura, and then veers off into the realm of "ahhh i don't know what any of these things do" with phalanx fighting, which most novice mids builders don't understand, grant cover, which gives you one thing and gives everyone else something ELSE, then an aoe with a long recharge, and a tier 9 that doesn't really do anything to enhance the survival of a SO'd shields toon.

It's not at all like SR where you say "ok, i've reached the next /SR power, my survivability has increased!" With Shields, once you have TG, both the defense toggles, your mez click, and phalanx fighting (if you take the time to look at city of data and figure out what it does, assuming you even know what city of data IS) you've pretty much capped your secondary. Shields doesn't get better at keeping you alive past level 20 (or 22 if you want to argue that point, for SO's). It gets better at helping you KILL THINGS, but not better at making you NOT DEAD.

Time for numbers! Yay!
A level 50 /shield scrapper with ED capped defense toggles and true grit, and phalanx fighting has 21.6 defense to all positions, and 1605 HP, and a tier 9 which gives you some resistances (whoopee).
A level 50 /SR scrapper with ED capped defense toggles and autos has a whopping 30.9 defense to all positions (plus scaling resists for low HP situations), plus elude which will, you know, cap your defenses.

THIS is why shields is so amazing at a high level of IO investment - because you have to overcome 9 percent melee, ranged, and AOE deficit in comparison to super reflexes. I wanted an AV/Pylon soloer and looked at shields when it came out and said "man that thing has 22 positional defense, there's no way I can soft cap that" because I don't care about shiny toys like shield charge and AAO if the secondary can't, you know, keep me alive. So I rolled a DM/SR and purpled it out to 191 +recharge and had a lot of fun with it. I kept hearing about how powerful X/Shields was, so one day I sat down for, oh, about TEN HOURS with mid's and figured out how to soft cap one. I made a dm/shields scrapper, leveled it to 50, and it's the most overpowered thing since, oh, I don't know, /invul tanks in issue 3?
However, for those of us who spend their free time on the scrapper forums figuring out how to make their characters do things that the devs never intended (Iggy, I'm looking at you), we know that /shields is balanced by the fact that it sacrifices 9 percent positional defense to achieve higher damage output, much like fiery aura.
For our scrapper bretheren (and sisteren) (hah, I just made up a new word) who prefer sticking with SO's - shields is still a good set, which is as it should be. It's the fiery aura to invulnerability of defense sets.

Well, that's probably enough rambling. I'm going to go solo a pylon or something. See ya out there!


 

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Originally Posted by Igor_The_Mad View Post
Time for numbers! Yay!
A level 50 /shield scrapper with ED capped defense toggles and true grit, and phalanx fighting has 21.6 defense to all positions, and 1605 HP, and a tier 9 which gives you some resistances (whoopee).
A level 50 /SR scrapper with ED capped defense toggles and autos has a whopping 30.9 defense to all positions (plus scaling resists for low HP situations), plus elude which will, you know, cap your defenses.
And the question is then whether the reduction in survivability is actually enough to account for the absurd increase in offensive capability, especially when you compare the offensive contributions of SD to those of FA. If you actually look at it, either FA is way too weak or SD is way too strong (or, like me, you could also believe that both of those are true).

The fact that Shield Charge does more damage than Burn over a larger area and without scattering enemies or dealing the damage over an extended period of time should tell you something (not to mention that Shield Charge is actually better than Lightning Rod because its damage is applied over the entire area rather than applied in diminishing amounts the further the target is from the target point). The fact that AAO provides more +dam over time with a single target (19.38% +dam) than FE does (10.8% +dam), using only a single slot rather than the 3 that would be needed for FE should tell you even more.

When all we had was FA, the assumption was that you gave up a decent bit of survivability and got a bit less back in offense (which is even less than it used to be because all of the damage tools that FA has have been nerfed or ignored to such a point that they're largely useless or mediocre) and it made sense because a defense set should be worse at dealing damage than an offensive set. With SD, you're giving up a marginal amount of survivability and getting enormous returns in the form of damage. That should just scream wrong to any balance minded individuals.


 

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Originally Posted by Igor_The_Mad View Post
I don't think the devs planned for /shield to be so dominant, but they probably should have seen it coming, seeing as the scrapper community is populated by, as one person put it, "numbersraping powergamers".
I suspect the devs didn't see it coming because almost no one saw it coming, including many of us numbercrunchers. Most of the testing was on a previous iteration of Shield Defense, which by all reports was pretty lame. They buffed it, but most people still were claiming that Shields sucked, if I recall. I believe Shred Monkey predicted that Shield Defense would be the new Super Reflexes. I believe I pretty much said hogwash - it's better than everyone thinks, but it's not THAT good. Oh look, I was totally wrong. It IS that good. I think the main thing I didn't pick up on was that you could cap defense debuff resistance. I realized that you could cap defenses, but I figured the resistance was a wash with Super Reflexes scaling resistance, so you were giving up defense debuff resistance for more damage, which seemed like a fair trade. I also didn't realize how great Shield Charge really was. People were reporting how much they loved it, but I just figured it was fun. Too long of a timer to really make a meaningful contribution. Boy did I call some things wrong on Shield Defense. *chuckle*


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"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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