Assuming a ridiculous amount of coin is DB still the way to go for DPS?
Oh right duh, I thought you were THEN attacking the pylon *facepalm*, math is way too hard when you just wake up
Without the help of inventions yes shields does have a lot less defense debuff resistance then super reflexes. However with double stacked Active Defense with 3 Membrane Exposures, Battle Agility at around 50% enhanced defense, and Grant Cover you will be at 95% defense debuff resistance.
I have to point out that with Fire/Shield you don't require a lot of recharge to have a good attack string so that allows you to focus on beefing up your resistances, regeneration, and recovery. With Dark/Shield you'll need to focus somewhat on recharge if you want to obtain the best attack chain. It leaves your resistances wanting, but due to having Siphon Life and Dark Consumption you won't need to focus so much on passive regeneration and recovery. |
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It's 200s recharge for 120s duration
I use 2 membranes (66.6% recharges) and 157% global which shows the recharge of 61.7s in mids
Virtue: @Santorican

Dark/Shield Build Thread
That's one thing I'm trying to work into the build I think I will end up eliminating the Blaze set and pick up Body as well as Grant cover
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As far as body vs blaze goes, SD + Shield charge is really powerful and I find that it's sufficient AOE for me. It's not spines/fire but it wipes out spawns quite handily.
Yeah. I ITF a lot with Virya and if I don't have 90+ def debuff res she starts to feel squishy pretty fast. Those cimerorans pack a nasty punch.
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I ran at a little under 90% DDR, and it was just fine for ITF, even considering I played like a psycho, never turning off Super Speed, soloing a lot, and being first to attack everything. I died maybe 5 times in those 200+ runs, playing in perma-scrapperlock mode.
It's laughably simple actually: just keep a couple purples in your tray and monitor your defense #s. They start to drop, you pop a purple; problem solved.
Shield Defense is a very, very powerful set, especially a late-game build kitted out with IOs. Lack of DDR was never a huge issue for me. It made the Positron + Manticore AV fight pretty tough, but I can't think of any other time I ever wished for SR.
The list that Werner compiled from the Pylon Results thread says something pretty loud and clear about /SD.
That shield charge needs to be hit with a nerf bat hard? lol
Virtue: @Santorican

Dark/Shield Build Thread
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"Light travels faster than sounds. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak." - LCG
It's not shield charge that puts SD on the top of those pylon soloing times.
Maxed AAO is like popping 3 small reds all the time. It's serious business :P
Well, what that list in particular says to me is that choice of secondary (ie. Shield or not Shield) has more to do with top-end DPS than choice of primary.
I just started a DM/Shield toon an hour ago, and was wondering what your take on it's AoE if you go the Blaze EPP route? I would think that SD + Shield Charge + Fireball + DC if needed would make for some decent AoE potential. I'm making it for AV soloing, but the ability to have a second build and go for more AoE is a plan as well.
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The reason I like fm/sd better is because, like I said, it shines in more situations, and more often. I team a lot, and when I solo, I'm set for x8, and there's no question my fm will kill faster than my dm. On rare occasion, I might need to pop a green insp or 2 on the fire where on the dm the dmg spikes are taken care of with siphon life. There's really nothing I can do to bridge the killing gap though, that's why I'd suggest fm.
*And as I said earlier, if you're going for no insp av soloing, that is one area where dm/sd has a clear advantage due to the self heal.
Didn't they just finish BUFFING Shield Charge to use the Scrapper AT modifier correctly? I wouldn't expect them to suddenly nerf it again after buffing it.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
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Bill did a list with just the primary doing the dmg and fm and dm both were top performers. SD just widens the gap for the primaries that go with SD.
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The point remains: choice of secondary (Shield vs. not-Shield) has more to do with high-end DPS than choice of primary.
Wow, that's an eye opener. I didn't think fire/shield would have that many results near the top. I haven't looked at that thread in quite some time.
I once posted a thread in this forum titled Fire/Shield FOTM and remember getting roundly castigated for claiming without justification that Fire/Shield, especially Fire/Shield/Blaze would become one of the most popular scrapper variants. While I'm not sure whether or not Fire/Shield is more popular than Electric/Shield (better AoE) or Dark Melee/Shield (better AV soloer), I think a lot of players like the fact that it's a good compromise choice between for those who like AoE and single target. It is however easy to see that it has become a very popular variant of scrapper. |
Pinnacle
Langar Thurs-Katana/SR 50; Hejtmane-DM/DA 50
Rogue Spear-Spines/DA 50; Hypnosis-Ill/Rad 50
Sir Thomas Theroux-DM/SR 50; Melted Copper-Fire/Shield 50
Byzantine Warrior-DB/ELA 50;Blade Tempo-50 DB/EA
Blue
American Steele: 50 BS/Inv
Nightfall: 50 DDD
Sable Slayer: 50 DM/Rgn
Fortune's Shadow: 50 Dark/Psi
WinterStrike: 47 Ice/Dev
Quantum Well: 43 Inv/EM
Twilit Destiny: 43 MA/DA
Red
Shadowslip: 50 DDC
Final Rest: 50 MA/Rgn
Abyssal Frost: 50 Ice/Dark
Golden Ember: 50 SM/FA
I think what you want is Dark Melee/Shield Defense. It and Fiery Melee/Shield Defense are your top DPS options, but the Dark Melee has more survivability in AV fights due to Siphon Life. Fiery Melee would likely be the better choice for regular play, though, as it has a lot higher AoE capability. The new difficulty sliders allow you to get full-team-sized spawns while solo, so AoE is, at least for me, a lot more attractive now.
Also see the Rikti Pylon Results Thread for a whole lot of examples of real-world DPS rather than calculated DPS. Mind you, we've gotten better and better at our calculations, and theoretical maximums are interesting, but I'd still consider Pylon soloing times on actual builds that people actually play to be the gold standard. Here is a quick summary of the thread. Keep in mind that without knowing the builds, we could be comparing SOs to purples and PvP IOs. I know we're comparing DPS builds to survivability builds. So the position on this list is merely suggestive of a combination's potential DPS, not conclusive. 276 Fiery Melee/Shield Defense - Iggy Kamakaze 267 Dark Melee/Shield Defense - Igor The Mad 262 Fiery Melee/Shield Defense - Machine Man X 259 Fiery Melee/Shield Defense - Norse 255 Dark Melee/Shield Defense - Besserwisser 249 Fiery Melee/Shield Defense - SkylineGTR 243 Fiery Melee/Shield Defense - Primal Dark 242 Dark Melee/Shield Defense - MrLiberty 241 Dark Melee/Shield Defense - Powerforge 239 Fiery Melee/Shield Defense - Effy On Malibu 236 Broad Sword/Shield Defense - Chaos String 219 Katana/Super Reflexes - Laevateinn 219 Dark Melee/Shield Defense - _Mojo_ 210 Katana/Regeneration - Iggy Kamakaze 205 Claws/Super Reflexes - Powerforge 198 Claws/Super Reflexes - Iggy Kamakaze 196 Dual Blades/Invulnerability - Nihilii 194 Claws/Super Reflexes - Bill Z Bubba 190 Dual Blades/Willpower - Myriad 185 Katana/Regen - Werner 184 Dark Melee/Super Reflexes - Larac 180 Dark Melee/Super Reflexes - Werner 177 Katana/Dark Armor - Werner 175 Katana/Willpower - Iggy Kamakaze 174 Katana/Willpower - AgentMountaineer 174 Martial Arts/Shield Defense - Broken Prey 170 Claws/Regeneration - Iggy Kamakaze 167 Martial Arts/Super Reflexes - American Dynamo 165 Broad Sword/Invulnerability - Hopeling 160 Katana/Fiery Aura - Iggy Kamakaze 160 Dual Blades/Willpower - Soul Fane 152 Dual Blades/Regeneration - BrokenPrey 150 Katana/Dark Armor - ShadowBeast NA 149 Martial Arts/Regeneration - SpiderTeo OC 148 Dark Melee/Invulnerability - Aliana Blue Too add to those results, I calculated just over 300 DPS for a Dark Melee/Shield Defense based on the time for an AV fight by Shred Monkey. Now, that was a lot shorter than a Pylon fight, so luck may have played a much bigger factor, but it's still something to consider in regards to top end performance. |
Being a former fan of DB and now recently a renewed fan of DB (Shred Monkey is out of retirement in a big way). The thing that DB has that the others do not is the fact that it's biggest attack is a 90 deg cone. The splash damage to other badguys gets overlooked because it doesn't show up in a pylon test, or in the theoretical DPS threads. But it definatly is noticable in gameplay. Sweeping Strikes in Dual Blades is, in my opinion, the mest melee attack in the game for hitting multiple targets with big burst damage. (ok... shield charge and lightning rod do better, but I still believe those 2 attacks are broken).
I also believe DB can do better then it's performed in the above list. I've never actually timed a pylon kill with Shred. Now that he's rebuilt, I should do that sometime and see where it fits in.
I gotta make pain. I gotta make things right. I gotta stop what's comin'. 'Least I gotta try.
I just want to note that a lot of those /SD pylon times are achieved only with saturated AAO. And you don't always get saturated AAO in normal gameplay, since teammates are killing things, stuff gets scattered/knocked around, you don't always have the luxury of perfect positioning, etc. Even playing solo, I rarely bother to get fully saturated AAO, especially vs enemies that don't herd well. So the advantage SD has over non-SD builds is much less than the list of pylon times suggest.
I actually tried soloing a pylon on my Fire/SD without saturated AAO, and took around 9 minutes (vs 7 for my Kat/SR).
I just want to note that a lot of those /SD pylon times are achieved only with saturated AAO. And you don't always get saturated AAO in normal gameplay, since teammates are killing things, stuff gets scattered/knocked around, you don't always have the luxury of perfect positioning, etc. Even playing solo, I rarely bother to get fully saturated AAO, especially vs enemies that don't herd well.
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And to Shred_Monkey:
I think what's really revealing about that list isn't so much how DM and Fire dominate the primaries, but how there's a huge gap between /Shield and /(everything else). |
Virtue: @Santorican

Dark/Shield Build Thread
I can damage cap my shield charge.
By myself.
It's stupid amounts of damage - it oneshots +3 minions.
Shield charge is so powerful that I don't really care whether I'm soloing rikti warzone missions at -1x8 or +3x8. I just herd the spawn, soul drain, and shield charge them into the ground. Lieutenants take a bit longer, and bosses might require a full attack chain to kill, but the minions evaporate - which is why I don't really care that DM has no aoe.
However...
I think that the defining power of /shields is not SC, but AAO.
It's trivially easy to saturate it, since AAO is an enormously strong taunt power. I was doing a STF and if the stoner (who had more IO's than a... really... io'd thing...) did not taunt on cooldown I was stripping aggro off with my high DPS + taunt aura. Saturated AAO is worth slightly more than 3 small reds. Try running around on your non-shielder with 3 reds popped all the time and see how you like it, and you'll have some idea of how powerful AAO really is.
I don't think the devs planned for /shield to be so dominant, but they probably should have seen it coming, seeing as the scrapper community is populated by, as one person put it, "numbersraping powergamers".
Weaknesses of shield are that while it performs at a (mostly) acceptable level with SO's, it doesn't particularly shine. Shield charge has a very long (90 sec base) recharge. It can't cap its defense debuff resistance without some major shenanigans involving HO's - and this is more of a weakness than anyone cares to admit, considering how much time most people spend doing ITF's.
Another off-putting characteristic is that it's confusing as heck to learn the powers. Willpower (for instance)... ok, +regen auto, +hp auto, +regen toggle/taunt aura, +recovery auto... got it, and you're off!
Shields, on the other hand starts out with the normal +melee/range/aoe toggles, a +hp/resist auto, clicky mez protection (which can't be perma out of the box, ugh), then a +dmg taunt aura, and then veers off into the realm of "ahhh i don't know what any of these things do" with phalanx fighting, which most novice mids builders don't understand, grant cover, which gives you one thing and gives everyone else something ELSE, then an aoe with a long recharge, and a tier 9 that doesn't really do anything to enhance the survival of a SO'd shields toon.
It's not at all like SR where you say "ok, i've reached the next /SR power, my survivability has increased!" With Shields, once you have TG, both the defense toggles, your mez click, and phalanx fighting (if you take the time to look at city of data and figure out what it does, assuming you even know what city of data IS) you've pretty much capped your secondary. Shields doesn't get better at keeping you alive past level 20 (or 22 if you want to argue that point, for SO's). It gets better at helping you KILL THINGS, but not better at making you NOT DEAD.
Time for numbers! Yay!
A level 50 /shield scrapper with ED capped defense toggles and true grit, and phalanx fighting has 21.6 defense to all positions, and 1605 HP, and a tier 9 which gives you some resistances (whoopee).
A level 50 /SR scrapper with ED capped defense toggles and autos has a whopping 30.9 defense to all positions (plus scaling resists for low HP situations), plus elude which will, you know, cap your defenses.
THIS is why shields is so amazing at a high level of IO investment - because you have to overcome 9 percent melee, ranged, and AOE deficit in comparison to super reflexes. I wanted an AV/Pylon soloer and looked at shields when it came out and said "man that thing has 22 positional defense, there's no way I can soft cap that" because I don't care about shiny toys like shield charge and AAO if the secondary can't, you know, keep me alive. So I rolled a DM/SR and purpled it out to 191 +recharge and had a lot of fun with it. I kept hearing about how powerful X/Shields was, so one day I sat down for, oh, about TEN HOURS with mid's and figured out how to soft cap one. I made a dm/shields scrapper, leveled it to 50, and it's the most overpowered thing since, oh, I don't know, /invul tanks in issue 3?
However, for those of us who spend their free time on the scrapper forums figuring out how to make their characters do things that the devs never intended (Iggy, I'm looking at you), we know that /shields is balanced by the fact that it sacrifices 9 percent positional defense to achieve higher damage output, much like fiery aura.
For our scrapper bretheren (and sisteren) (hah, I just made up a new word) who prefer sticking with SO's - shields is still a good set, which is as it should be. It's the fiery aura to invulnerability of defense sets.
Well, that's probably enough rambling. I'm going to go solo a pylon or something. See ya out there!
Time for numbers! Yay!
A level 50 /shield scrapper with ED capped defense toggles and true grit, and phalanx fighting has 21.6 defense to all positions, and 1605 HP, and a tier 9 which gives you some resistances (whoopee). A level 50 /SR scrapper with ED capped defense toggles and autos has a whopping 30.9 defense to all positions (plus scaling resists for low HP situations), plus elude which will, you know, cap your defenses. |
The fact that Shield Charge does more damage than Burn over a larger area and without scattering enemies or dealing the damage over an extended period of time should tell you something (not to mention that Shield Charge is actually better than Lightning Rod because its damage is applied over the entire area rather than applied in diminishing amounts the further the target is from the target point). The fact that AAO provides more +dam over time with a single target (19.38% +dam) than FE does (10.8% +dam), using only a single slot rather than the 3 that would be needed for FE should tell you even more.
When all we had was FA, the assumption was that you gave up a decent bit of survivability and got a bit less back in offense (which is even less than it used to be because all of the damage tools that FA has have been nerfed or ignored to such a point that they're largely useless or mediocre) and it made sense because a defense set should be worse at dealing damage than an offensive set. With SD, you're giving up a marginal amount of survivability and getting enormous returns in the form of damage. That should just scream wrong to any balance minded individuals.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
So many demands and so little flexibility lol