Looking to upgrade: Suggestions?
By
Bellen,
Posted on: 2010-01-07 11:00 in ALL ACCESS Gameplay Technical Issues Bugs
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Well, you kind of can't for that price. The reason being that you not only need to upgrade the processor and motherboard, you'll also need new DDR3 RAM for one of the new chips. You could buy a low-ball CPU and maybe squeeze everything into that price, but it would be with another socket LGA 775 chip and wouldn't be much/any of an "upgrade".|
Originally Posted by Serevus
So, it's really just a 'small' upgrade.. compared to what I've already done to the thing, anyhow. My current setup goes as follows:
The motherboard and processor are the only parts that I've yet to replace/upgrade.. so, I'm looking to do those two.. but I'm really not quite sure where to start. The I7 CPUs seem to be the big thing, now - but awfully expensive. I'd like to try and shoot for a balance between significantly improved and just-around-$300-total for this venture. |
If you're willing to spend a bit more, the i5-750 is a $200 processor that does most of what the i7s do, with the exception of the hyper-threading capability that gives you 8 virtual cores on 4 physical ones. If you're not going to have any applications that require 8 cores, the i5-750 is probably your best value/price compromise. Below the i5-750 you start to get into dual cores with an on-chip GPU that is barely enough to push spreadsheets around a screen.
The older E8500 3.16 GHz dual core and Q9400 2.66 GHz quad core both cost $180. The i5-750 has a base clock speed of 2.66 GHz, but when two or fewer cores are in use it will overclock itself to above 3 GHz. On top of that, it has better power-management capabilities than the older Core 2 chips. So you get all the flexibility of the Q9400 with all of the potential speed of the E8500 in one chip.
You could fit the chip on an MSI P55-CD53 for $115. If you used this you wouldn't be able to do SLI or Crossfire, but it doesn't sound like you intend that anyway. A more substantial Socket 1156 motherboard with be somewhere north of $130.
With those two bits you'll want 4 GB of DDR3 1066 or 1333 RAM, which will cost you another ~$100.
So you could fit a processor and motherboard into your budget, keeping your old RAM, but it would be one of the older Core 2 chips.
Add and SSD (Solid State Drive) and install Coh on it. Best Bang for buck
Otherwise system is great. The biggest Bottleneck is the HD, SSD addresses that.
See here're the problems.
1) Intel isn't making any "new" and more "powerful" CPUs for Socket 775. Instead they are introducing low end Core 2 CPUs with smaller caches and slower FSB speeds (in the case of dual core).
2) The Socket 1156 and Socket 1366 CPUs are DDR3 only. This means you will need to replace RAM as well. (BTW, is that one stick of 4GB and one of 2GB or a pair of 2GB and a pair of 1GB?).
3) Next week Intel will be introducing their "replacement" for office and home CPUs, the Core i5-6xx and Core i3-5xx. They are dual core but allow two thread per core so the OS sees it as a quad core. The i5-6xx has Intel's Turbo Boost that will automatically bump the clock speed up, the i3-5xx doesn't. They use yet another new motherboard chipset (H55/H57) and are reported NOT officially allowing a multiple GPU setup, unlike the Core i5-7xx or Core i7-8xx (thank you Intel for a clear, straightforward number scheme /sarcasm).
So right now there isn't really a $300 upgrade you can do to your rig. Twice that could give you a Socket 1156 MB that supports both SLi and Crossfire, 4GB of reasonably fast DDR3 memory and a Core i5-750 true quad core.
Sure you could go with something like this motherboard coupled with this CPU is $290 before sale and rebates. Not sure how much of an improvement that would be in terms of gaming. Most of the benchmarks here thrive on quads so the slower quad wins hands down. The last four are game benchmarks and they do show that a game that can use more than two cores, FarCry 2, really shows an advantage. I should note that they aren't pushing the games at their highest quality settings so they can highlight CPU differences. Cranked to the max there might not be any noticeable difference at all.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
I agree there is not much CPU wise are memory wise that will help this machine. The GPU, could be upgraded, but what is there is more than enough for COH.
I repeat, SSD is by far the best bang for the machine, 64GB is more than enough, and install COH on it and any othe disk intensive game. You will not notice much while playing, monster will appear quicker. The big notice will be at login and zoning where the the machine is pulling large numbers of different textures and really seeking hard. That is SSD's spot. You will notice that you will always be the first in a zone of a team, changing zones will be faster and places where you approach large numbers of different textures (like Atlas Park during a costume contest)
Other option, its a great time to check out upgrading the monitor, prices have dropped hard on those recently. Or upgrade Keyboard, mouse and/or speakers, but those only need to be upgraded every couple years or more, if you buy quality parts. Also your win7 RC will be expiring soon, save some money aside for that.
Hmh. Well, Keyboard adn mouse are already pretty swell.. Dad Keyboard Professional and a Logitech MX518 (Could upgrade the mouse, but I don't see much need to at the moment.)
Monitor... I don't know, really. 22" seems like plenty enough for me.
The CPU.. The main reason I'm looking to upgrade this is for another game, actually, which is touted as 'very CPU intensive' because a lot of GPU functions are apparently off-loaded to the CPU instead. My reasoning was that if a fairly new-ish game is going to eat up that much CPU, then I might want to upgrade in preparation for CoX's graphical update with Going Rogue, as well.
Now, I can spend a bit more than $300.. I'm just trying not to spend another thousand just to upgrade a couple of parts in a machine that otherwise handles everything I can throw at it.
Edit: Also, that's one set of 2 Gig sticks, and one set of 1 Gig sticks. So, 2 x 2 gig and 2 x 1 gig.
But, then, this is why I ask these things here. I'll take whatever advice I'm offered, and start looking into the options mentioned above.
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That may, in fact, be doable. Are there any particular brands or types of motherboards you woudl recommend to go with the I5? I was actually peeking at that processor earlier and giving it some consideration... I just wasn't certain how fast it would become 'low-end'. I'm really not sure what I'm looking for in a motherboard, aside from the requisite slots and socket to fit what I have.|
Originally Posted by Human_Being
Well, you kind of can't for that price. The reason being that you not only need to upgrade the processor and motherboard, you'll also need new DDR3 RAM for one of the new chips. You could buy a low-ball CPU and maybe squeeze everything into that price, but it would be with another socket LGA 775 chip and wouldn't be much/any of an "upgrade".
If you're willing to spend a bit more, the i5-750 is a $200 processor that does most of what the i7s do, with the exception of the hyper-threading capability that gives you 8 virtual cores on 4 physical ones. If you're not going to have any applications that require 8 cores, the i5-750 is probably your best value/price compromise. Below the i5-750 you start to get into dual cores with an on-chip GPU that is barely enough to push spreadsheets around a screen. The older E8500 3.16 GHz dual core and Q9400 2.66 GHz quad core both cost $180. The i5-750 has a base clock speed of 2.66 GHz, but when two or fewer cores are in use it will overclock itself to above 3 GHz. On top of that, it has better power-management capabilities than the older Core 2 chips. So you get all the flexibility of the Q9400 with all of the potential speed of the E8500 in one chip. You could fit the chip on an MSI P55-CD53 for $115. If you used this you wouldn't be able to do SLI or Crossfire, but it doesn't sound like you intend that anyway. A more substantial Socket 1156 motherboard with be somewhere north of $130. With those two bits you'll want 4 GB of DDR3 1066 or 1333 RAM, which will cost you another ~$100. So you could fit a processor and motherboard into your budget, keeping your old RAM, but it would be one of the older Core 2 chips. |
Edit: Just another addition.. Really, the budget isn't quite so strict. I don't want to spend an enormous amount - but I would like to try and improve my rig to the point that I can record gameplay in various games with a fairly stable framerate. Or would I need a peripheral for that, ideally? I've heard a bit about capture cards.
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The information we have so far hints strongly towards CoX GR being more GPU dependent then CPU dependent. That GTX 275 should handle GR Ultra Mode just fine according to Positron's post in the Ultra Mode Shopping Guide thread. Positron just mentioned pairing the graphics card with a "decent" CPU. Unless you're bound and determined to upgrade for that unstated other game, I'd stand pat for now.
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Originally Posted by Serevus
The CPU.. The main reason I'm looking to upgrade this is for another game, actually, which is touted as 'very CPU intensive' because a lot of GPU functions are apparently off-loaded to the CPU instead. My reasoning was that if a fairly new-ish game is going to eat up that much CPU, then I might want to upgrade in preparation for CoX's graphical update with Going Rogue, as well.
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Well, that's kind of all you need to look for atm, I think. You've got a separate sound card, so you don't need the integrated sound. You didn't mention anything about legacy firewire-based components you need to accommodate. You don't have a RAID array you need to feed with a set number of SATA connectors. The Socket 1156 boards absorbs most of the old Chipset functions into the processor so the only variant for i5-750 is the P55/P55A* chipset. ...Beyond number of PCIe x16 slots for single/multiple graphics cards that's sort of all the different selling points of motherboards obviated right there. As to brands, people seem to generally like Asus, Gigabyte, and MSI.|
Originally Posted by Serevus
That may, in fact, be doable. Are there any particular brands or types of motherboards you woudl recommend to go with the I5? I was actually peeking at that processor earlier and giving it some consideration... I just wasn't certain how fast it would become 'low-end'. I'm really not sure what I'm looking for in a motherboard, aside from the requisite slots and socket to fit what I have.
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| Edit: Just another addition.. Really, the budget isn't quite so strict. I don't want to spend an enormous amount - but I would like to try and improve my rig to the point that I can record gameplay in various games with a fairly stable framerate. Or would I need a peripheral for that, ideally? I've heard a bit about capture cards. |
Wow, video capture cards: blast from the past! I remember a friend being all excited about getting one of those in 1994.
Most game-video recording is done now with Fraps software. You can try it on the machine you have now.
(*P55A gives USB 3.0 capability and SATA 6 Gb/Sec, but uses half of the available PCIe lanes otherwise used for the graphics card to enable it.)
I use Fraps now, actually. It's just that doing so tends to cause my framerate to plummet no matter whether I'm recording full-size or half-size - depending on the game. Machinama has always been an interest of mine - but I'd havet o be able to record smooth, quality footage first.
Edit: Last edit, honest! Champions Online is the main 'play' reason I'm looking to beef up the CPU. The video capture for both CoH and other games that I play is the 'main' reason. I like both games enough to keep an active subscription for both; and I'd like to be able to make videos with both, but there's just something not quite powerful enough on this rig to enable me to record footage at any reasonable framerate: even with a second HD dedicated to the raw film output.
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You have two possible bottlenecks there. Once is HD write speed. The other is processor availability. A quad would give you more real estate for the latter and I have no idea if the former is actually a problem for you.
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Originally Posted by Serevus
I use Fraps now, actually. It's just that doing so tends to cause my framerate to plummet no matter whether I'm recording full-size or half-size - depending on the game. Machinama has always been an interest of mine - but I'd havet o be able to record smooth, quality footage first.
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Honestly an SSD? Give it another year or two before they are finally ready (and the prices drop from their extreme 30x premium per GB) for the mainstream.|
Originally Posted by Bellen
I repeat, SSD is by far the best bang for the machine, 64GB is more than enough, and install COH on it and any othe disk intensive game. You will not notice much while playing, monster will appear quicker. The big notice will be at login and zoning where the the machine is pulling large numbers of different textures and really seeking hard. That is SSD's spot. You will notice that you will always be the first in a zone of a team, changing zones will be faster and places where you approach large numbers of different textures (like Atlas Park during a costume contest)
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SSDs are simply the current status symbol among hardcore PC gamers. An expensive knick-knack that they self-delude to believe it's worth the expense while quantifiable benchmarking show no such "extreme" improvement.
I'm not saying that they are useless, just that $300 are better spent on other items.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
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I believe it's the latter - at least, disk useage vs. cpu useage seems to suggest it. Would a Quad be the way to go over an I5, for the moment? Right now, I've my eye on the I5... but if I can get by, for now, with a Quad - then I'm happy with settling a bit lower until I can better afford the higher.|
Originally Posted by Human_Being
You have two possible bottlenecks there. Once is HD write speed. The other is processor availability. A quad would give you more real estate for the latter and I have no idea if the former is actually a problem for you.
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The main thing I'm trying to avoid is shooting 'too low' - while, at the same time, trying to avoid going for the 'latest and greatest' when it's likely more than I'll need.
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A "good Core 2 quad" will be around 2.66 GHz right now. For single/dual core-using applications like CoX, that will mean a *drop* in performance from your current 3 GHz dual core. The i5-750 is a 2.66 GHz quad that will automatically overclock itself to above 3 GHz when two or fewer cores are in use (staying inside its thermal design specs). It also has a newer architecture and slightly better performance per clock cycle than the Core 2s.|
Originally Posted by Serevus
I believe it's the latter - at least, disk useage vs. cpu useage seems to suggest it. Would a Quad be the way to go over an I5, for the moment? Right now, I've my eye on the I5... but if I can get by, for now, with a Quad - then I'm happy with settling a bit lower until I can better afford the higher.
The main thing I'm trying to avoid is shooting 'too low' - while, at the same time, trying to avoid going for the 'latest and greatest' when it's likely more than I'll need. |
The difference in price between a 2.66 GHz Core 2 quad and the i5-750 is $20. You get the speed of a high end dual core when you need it and the flexibility and performance of a high end quad core when you need it.
Above the i5-750 you have the i7-860 and 870 for much more money that have a slightly higher base clock and the ability to engage hyperthreading to treat each of their four cores as two virtual cores (8 total). The i5-750 is a quality workhorse, not a status symbol.
All right. Beginning to look at parts, now...
Motherboard: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813130239
Processor: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16819115215
RAM: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16820145263
How does that look? Should I pick up an extra 2 GB of RAM, or leave it at 4 for now?
I apologize for all the obvious questions, thus far. I really appreciate all the help. I don't know that I'm quite comfortable enough with building to trust my own judgement on part selection.
No complaints here. The i5-750 is a better quad core the the older Core 2 Q9550.
You're already 50% over your original budget and 2x1GB DDR3-1600 Cas 8 is another $60-70. If you really want more than 4GB might as well spring the additional $30-40 for another 4GB instead of just 2GB.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
Well. I figured I could expand the budget a bit - this should be the last time I'll have to upgrade for a while, I hope.
As for RAM... I'm more curious as to whether I should or not, really. I wouldn't want to upgrade, only to get bottlenecked down to where I am now by having too little RAM.
The one thing I haven't seen commented on:
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Is this not set to expire sometime this year? I don't even know if it'll get security updates and the like, since Win7 is released...
| OS: WIndows 7 64-bit Release Canidate |
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Do you plan on buying a second GTX 275 to use in SLI? If you don't, you really don't need the second PCIe x16 slot - and the attendant price increase that comes with it. Was there some other feature you wanted that board for?|
Originally Posted by Serevus
All right. Beginning to look at parts, now...
Motherboard: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16813130239 |
The single GTX 275 on a 23 inch monitor should probably handle whatever you're going to throw at for a good long while. Long enough it would be more cost effective to upgrade to a new generation card when the time comes.
The RAM's fine. Corsair works. However, *do* comparison shop with the RAM because the companies weekly try to cut each others' throats. Furthermore, if you don't want to spend the money for 1600 RAM, 1333 or even 1066 will do fine; the difference in performance is nominal. Also don't be too afraid to buy "naked" RAM without a heat spreader; the DDR3 RAM operates at much lower voltage than the older DDR2 RAM and doesn't heat up as much.
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| How does that look? Should I pick up an extra 2 GB of RAM, or leave it at 4 for now? |
I don't know if that's going to interfere with your planned recording and I have no clue what impact it's going to have in "that other game" at all.
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| I apologize for all the obvious questions, thus far. I really appreciate all the help. |
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Originally Posted by Serevus
Well. I figured I could expand the budget a bit - this should be the last time I'll have to upgrade for a while, I hope.
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*Facepalm*
CPU Cooler!
#1 Are you okay with using the stock cooler that comes with the Intel chip?
#2 If you aren't, what cooler are you currently using?
Socket 1156 uses a different hole arrangement for cooler mounting than Socket 775 did (or 1366 does =P). You may need a mounting adapter kit for an after-market cooler.
Oh, and to clear up a few things.
1) There is no such thing as a P55A chipset. P55A is a designation that GigaByte uses for their line of stupidly hacked motherboards that support 6Gb SATA and USB 3.0 by sacrificing not only the SLi and Crossfire support but turning the primary video slot into only a x8 slot. Sure the board will act just like their P55 designated motherboard if you disable the 6Gb SATA and USB 3.0 but then why pay $20-30 more? Maybe someday they will come out with a "P55B" motherboard that isn't crippled when 6Gb SATA and USB 3.0 is enabled. Also maybe late this year or early next Intel will introduce a Socket 1156 chipset that doesn't need an add on chip for 6Gb SATA and USB 3.0.
2) "The Windows 7 RC will stop working on June 1, 2010. After that date, your PC will stop working and it may be difficult to recover your files. If you're running the RC version of Windows 7, please be prepared to reinstall a prior version of Windows or the final version of Windows 7 before June 1, 2010."
3) A good inexpensive Socket 1156 heatsink is the Cooler Master Hyper 212 Plus for $30. Review
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
I'm already intending to pick up the retail version of the Windows 7 RC within the next couple of months or so, so that's good and covered...
Heatsink... I'm actually using a Zalman CNPS9500 AT 2 Ball Fan/Heatsink at the moment. ... Which doesn't appear to be compatible with Socket 1156. Cooler Master iti s, then.
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Whoa there, Tex! Take a look at this first. This is what I meant about an adaptor.|
Originally Posted by Serevus
Heatsink... I'm actually using a Zalman CNPS9500 AT 2 Ball Fan/Heatsink at the moment. ... Which doesn't appear to be compatible with Socket 1156. Cooler Master iti s, then.
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Do read the reviews, there may be some fiddling for installation if there are large mosfet heatsinks nearby. But if it will work, $9 is less than $30. There's also another kit that Zalman offers, but I don't see it on Newegg's site yet. You might contact Zalman and ask about them both with your 9500.
FrozenCPU carries it.
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
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I took X's advice and went with the Lynnfield i5-750. I couldn't be more pleased with its performance. I was running a C2D before, and its an entirely different breed of awesome.
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Originally Posted by Father Xmas
No complaints here. The i5-750 is a better quad core the the older Core 2 Q9550.
You're already 50% over your original budget and 2x1GB DDR3-1600 Cas 8 is another $60-70. If you really want more than 4GB might as well spring the additional $30-40 for another 4GB instead of just 2GB. |
So, it's really just a 'small' upgrade.. compared to what I've already done to the thing, anyhow. My current setup goes as follows:
Motherboard: EVGA Nvidia NForce 650i Ultra
CPU : Intel Core 2 Duo E6750 @ 2.66 GHZ (Overlocked to 3.00 GHZ)
Ram: AData DDR2 4GB + Kingston HyperX DDR2 2GB
Audio: Creative X-Fi XTreme Gamer
Diskdrive(s) : Western Digital Caviar 640 GB
Video : Nvida 275 GTX
Monitor: Acer X223W
Netcard: D-Link WDA 2320 (Range Booster G)