Ranged Defense or Melee Defense?

I'm working on a tentative MA/Fire build. I find that I have a curious choice between solid ranged defense, solid melee defense, or anything on the gradient between the two.

Intended content is "everything."

Melee defense seems immediately reasonable as a Scrapper, since I plan to be in melee. But Dragon's Tail and bloodthirst should limit incoming melee attacks a bit, and I notice that one tends to get shot a whole bunch regardless of AT (especially by debuffing mobs!), so I lean towards Ranged.

My current plan looks like this:
Click this DataLink to open the build!

...but this is rather theoretical. I'm also considering shuffling slots around to put a LotG or two in, but this would likely cost me 2% of my global defense or 3% of my ranged defense, and I'm on the fence about that.

I also may not be able to afford the purple set in Laser Eyes, which would push me toward the LotG option.

Mostly, however, I am worried about Ranged vs. Melee Defense.

Thoughts?

Melee defense

Ranged defense is a nice to have, but remember you still have resists and your heal. Melee attacks from mobs hit harder than those from range. Plus as a MA scrapper, you'll be spending the bulk of your time in their faces. Max out melee defense first.

Choosing between the two, go for Melee defense.

But if you're looking to layer one sort of defense onto /fire, the best one is S/L (typed).

I don't see much for S/L defense, am I missing some obvious sets?

Even with a small sample size, the fact that you all seem sure I should go Melee is already somewhat convincing. I'm curious about debuff, though. Do you get debuffed in melee more than I realize, or perhaps less at range? Is the damage difference between melee and range making up for the amount of ranged debuff that easily? Things like guns, ice blasts/bullets, Optical Blast, psy blast, and poison darts are the debuffs I've noticed most, and some common mobs--Psy Clocks, Rikti Drones, Nictus Essence, Council bots, to name a few-seem to focus heavily on ranged attacks.

While I'm thinking about it--how does high Defense compare with the option of using high Recharge to fire my heal more often? I'd lose 5-10% Defense and maybe 10-20% Regen to get my Healing Flames down from 20 seconds to 16 seconds, and it would slow my DPS a bit, but it's an option.

Similarly, I could take Cobra Strike, though I wish to reassert that my primary objective is to kill things and that seems like it would slow me down.

(I am aware that having 300% Regen is not especially impressive, though I'm not clear on whether it's worth mentioning.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windenergy21 Um.... what's bloodthirst?

That's when big orange numbers make things fall down and stop hitting me. Killing things before they kill you is a selling point for Fire Armor.

Wow, you guys opened my eyes a bit. Thank you.

Even a quick & rough build like this (DataLink) is hitting 30% S/L and 20% E/NE while keeping good recharge.

An interesting side effect of this is that I feel a bit burnt out on making defensive builds. I may just start another thread for more of a cannon build; that seems more appropriate for Fire Armor anyway, especially if I do something silly like purpling out RotP.

Like others said, I would certainly go melee defense first, but you can still manage to get around 20% ranged defense if you do. Which I advise to get.

Here is the build, you can mix/match the melee defense if you need. You can have just over 25% to BOTH melee and ranged defense, and 16.4% to aoe, you can have 29% to melee and 21%ish to ranged. or you can huge boon ranged defense to 14.5% melee defnese, 36.4% ranged defense, and the 16.4% aoe defense. 14.5% melee isnt' terribly shabby when you won't be needing much of the melee defense when your dragon's tail recharges every 4.83 seconds :P, healing flames every 13.8 seconds. I would like more recovery, but considering the end reduction in the build, and consume granting a full end bar every minute, and being able to keep T-drone off most of the time end shouldn't be too much of an issue. I'm actually quite impressed with the build i just made to almost make my own if I didn't already have a ma/dark thats pretty close to this and a ma/wp.

Also note, that the energy/negative energy is at 26.4% regardles if you go for more melee defense or not. So even if you swapped the IOs around between mako's and touch of death, if the attack in melee is energy or negative, it still woudln't make a difference, and you'll still have the resistance from fire armor and tough to back up the smash/lethal damage.

You could also swap the mako in thunder kick to touch of death, and leave the other 3 ST attacks as makos, giving 18.3% melee defense, 32.7% ranged defense, and 16.4% aoe defense. The significance of doing this, to push a small luck further. 32.7% is the base + cj defense of SR. One standard luck is 12.5% defense, pushing your ranged defense to 45.2% (capped), and helping your melee a little better.


You could also go 5 sciroccos + dam/end/rech multi strike in dragon's tail, and full performance shifter in consume to get more aoe defense. 16.4% to 22.7% aoe defense. if you went for rounded out defenses. You could then have 25.8% melee, 25.2% ranged, and 22.7% aoe defense, which isn't too shabby either. A good luck will cap you to all 3 types that way. You'd lose 10% recharge in the process though, and be a little better off on endurance.

Going to save the rounded out defense version and post it, take a look at it.

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Ma Fire Weave: Level 50 Mutation Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Martial Arts
Secondary Power Set: Fiery Aura
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fighting
Ancillary Pool: Weapon Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Thunder Kick -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(3), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(11), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(21), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36), T'Death-Dam%(37)
Level 1: Fire Shield -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(5), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(7), RctvArm-ResDam(42)
Level 2: Storm Kick -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(3), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(11), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(21), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(36), T'Death-Dam%(36)
Level 4: Healing Flames -- Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx(A), Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg(5), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg(7), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg(15), Dct'dW-Heal(15), Dct'dW-Rchg(37)
Level 6: Combat Jumping -- Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(A), Zephyr-ResKB(43)
Level 8: Crane Kick -- Mako-Acc/Dmg(A), Mako-Dmg/EndRdx(9), Mako-Dmg/Rchg(9), Mako-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg(33), Mako-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(33), Mako-Dam%(34)
Level 10: Hurdle -- Jump-I(A)
Level 12: Hasten -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(13), RechRdx-I(13)
Level 14: Super Jump -- Zephyr-Travel/EndRdx(A), Zephyr-ResKB(43)
Level 16: Plasma Shield -- RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg(17), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(17), RctvArm-ResDam(42)
Level 18: Crippling Axe Kick -- T'Death-Acc/Dmg(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx(19), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg(19), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(33), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(34), T'Death-Dam%(34)
Level 20: Health -- Mrcl-Rcvry+(A)
Level 22: Stamina -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(23), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(23), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(37)
Level 24: Blazing Aura -- Sciroc-Acc/Dmg(A), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(25), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg(25), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg(39), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(39), EndRdx-I(40)
Level 26: Dragon's Tail -- Sciroc-Acc/Dmg(A), Sciroc-Dmg/EndRdx(27), Sciroc-Dmg/Rchg(27), Sciroc-Acc/Rchg(29), Sciroc-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx(39), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg(40)
Level 28: Focus Chi -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(29)
Level 30: Consume -- P'Shift-EndMod(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg(31), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg(31), P'Shift-Acc/Rchg(31), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc(43), P'Shift-End%(46)
Level 32: Kick -- Acc-I(A)
Level 35: Fiery Embrace -- RechRdx-I(A), RechRdx-I(40)
Level 38: Rise of the Phoenix -- RechRdx-I(A)
Level 41: Caltrops -- TmpRdns-Rng/Slow(A), TmpRdns-EndRdx/Rchg/Slow(42)
Level 44: Targeting Drone -- GSFC-ToHit(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg(45), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx(45), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx(45), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx(46), GSFC-Build%(46)
Level 47: Tough -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+(A), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx(48), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg(48), RctvArm-ResDam(48)
Level 49: Weave -- LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg(50), LkGmblr-Def(50), LkGmblr-Rchg+(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Critical Hit
------------
Set Bonus Totals:

• 15.5% DamageBuff(Smashing)
• 15.5% DamageBuff(Lethal)
• 15.5% DamageBuff(Fire)
• 15.5% DamageBuff(Cold)
• 15.5% DamageBuff(Energy)
• 15.5% DamageBuff(Negative)
• 15.5% DamageBuff(Toxic)
• 15.5% DamageBuff(Psionic)
• 12.4% Defense(Smashing)
• 12.4% Defense(Lethal)
• 8.94% Defense(Fire)
• 8.94% Defense(Cold)
• 13% Defense(Energy)
• 13% Defense(Negative)
• 3% Defense(Psionic)
• 18% Defense(Melee)
• 17.4% Defense(Ranged)
• 14.9% Defense(AoE)
• 4% Enhancement(Heal)
• 12.5% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
• 27% Enhancement(Accuracy)
• 15% FlySpeed
• 170.7 HP (12.7%) HitPoints
• 15% JumpHeight
• 15% JumpSpeed
• Knockback (Mag -8)
• Knockup (Mag -8)
• MezResist(Held) 11.6%
• MezResist(Immobilize) 14.9%
• MezResist(Terrorized) 2.2%
• 9% (0.15 End/sec) Recovery
• 30% (1.68 HP/sec) Regeneration
• 1.26% Resistance(Fire)
• 1.26% Resistance(Cold)
• 6.25% Resistance(Negative)
• 1.26% Resistance(Toxic)
• 1.26% Resistance(Psionic)
• 15% RunSpeed

| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
|MxDz;1410;690;1380;HEX;|
|78DAA593DB4E13511486F7B4530AB4A585520E851E0101D101D4A8E085212289CA6|
|8234613059A113765B49936330382573E80572AA851EF3CFB04C647D127F1A6AEC3|
|2EA6F1C20B27EDFFCDACBDD6DAABFF749BBB8B51211E9F175AD785AAE579E5950DD|
|7AAD7A5DB6E6EFB966FD79C9869E5976C57E66F496B4786851043CD9CB229AB521A|
|A6E5FAB6552D2FB8BEF7676D516E4AC793C6922DDDBDF2C2B66B755F72B6A42B1DD|
|F68DE444BB55AD5589656DD762AFCB064FB8EF4BC4E7A58A94B792FA6E2952D1FB2|
|9217EBF68601B3D46B4ED9B43C1FBA0FC05093F0DDC7E9E86A84C46DC0B808DC217|
|4AE127AD70823EB84D132E1045669541514590D437A8ED056204C160907619506DD|
|B57F771FE1EEA7A02AA8AA8257A07E56E8CB843693D07595718D305A22F44155886|
|7D2423F02183AFA93F00A56C2AA5F785360A8BDC2D822E46DC67D42E101A10D4A3A|
|B89FE898A0501142110E052253148AB6A01F1262BC93166B99E134ACC4956371762|
|CC18E255A1C7B0D79DD6AD66E76AC871DEB61C7F2EC58811D2BB06361A84AAA5993|
|97A9513B84526AC3D4539AA1EF19E33961F4807012F2FA392FD4BF43BF62E021639|
|770648FF188305E20BC81AA4135E62057A5B92ACD55C3AD55DB84975035A4EC1962|
|C78619676025437F954628C3D36679DA2C4F9BDD673779E8E32F0801A8CA713F914|
|B53A3390815D51645EE3DCE98879531953CC621A10B31A19227BED0BF68F22BE117|
|9CF029E5CAD43BDAECD87BC607C6471EE413E33321085B18CA73034DCD88697ED7D|
|3FC92A7F925EB9037A3F26612B4E16C92D1CB481186F5C3C3091FB8C4F25F91927E|
|78C48446919C7E7838FFEBFA166DF6E9B8DE097A03A504A2DDC4BB5594357C5CC73|
|B0BEFEEA26CE063E37BB43969FC2C0E3487328F720EE509268523201194284A0CA5|
|0B258E924049A2F4A1A451DEA2347E038F60FACA|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|

Thank you Wind, that was very helpful.

Anytime

Soft-capped for Melee I have around 30 to 33% of Smashing/Lethal Defense. It's worked well for my Fire/Fire Scrapper.

I agree with Wind that I needed Hasten. I'm inclined towards this build now:

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

I'm toying with the idea of dropping two slots from Hasten and one from Fire Shield, giving Fire Shield the slotting of Plasma plus the global 3% Defense, and turning Temperature Protection into a Hover with two Zephyr, a Winter's Gift, and a LotG+R, but I don't think that extra 2.5% Ranged defense and 7.5% recharge would really be worth the added endurance cost and the minor loss of S/L and Cold resists.

Switching out the Fire/Fire/Fire build for MA/Fire/Fire it would look like this:

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Sacred Fire: Level 50 Magic Scrapper
Primary Power Set: Martial Arts
Secondary Power Set: Fiery Aura
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leaping
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Speed
Ancillary Pool: Blaze Mastery

| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build |
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|
|MxDz;1410;709;1418;HEX;|
|78DAA5935B4F534110C7F7F442A117CAB5E54EB9162814302AA20F0644A2861A228|
|407059A6359A149539A738A419FFC003E288A9744122F511F8D0FC618BF8ADF44B1|
|CECC7F8BBEDBA4F3DB9DD9D9D9F9EFD9CCFE4258A9071795557FA960BB6E7625E7D|
|8A59276FC197B3B9F0BADD839476F2516F38E0E28A53AABE16C4617B44E676CA79C|
|B70BD939A7ECFE8D2DE83BBAE8EAF4625E3BF7B2737B8EDD78B5B8A31D5D2CA7AB8|
|3F0F2EE6E8156948BDA753159D276295FDC8E98C8F64E99664199AD94B4DE6ABA5C|
|CAE7D2F305FBBECE666CB74C9BB7D19946E97FC887935FC5AF6E12926AF416B00E6|
|C08C63681ACE0146759266B8C06D32A9C12D48F03138281B4606252F02C609228CB|
|422D0F6A7950AB06B56A512B885AA729CB8B2CAF77DE6297EF0A705DB6AD5915F86|
|99D1F6752FE09C5AE18B90270598119824FA9DA6362B73A43A13A13AA8B5BEC0AB6|
|095E5024847A5628A5D09B204E9108222AF2C3C3AEB3E48A1A21A210A2014234408|
|8260891841063102240598DA678E335E9A5694D22B5146946C4D39C90AA2D0752A9|
|E5B9E0252D68351AB642C318348C41C3616898848649686851561C59BEB82B6DB69|
|5813DC1E05DC1F0BEE0152D6F3745DA7F4ADD8E5FC0B160E0B760B002F0FD4C2B2F|
|65751A2D3AA14517B4E882163DD0A2075AF4410B1F65751B2DBACD1DF5181E51ACD|
|79CA317CD26D06C02CD26D06C1F9AED43B3FD94D56F2EB01F373700CC5264C84486|
|E01A06DED0BD8E984A238FE460E38F8103E009BEE4A7C0A1E01D65A5CCA7997A2D1|
|B4DBE154C7F003E0ADED3BAB45997FE84759F812F58F7553043E79B92275251531D|
|E2EAF29DBC4FA5E05AFAD7850F7DD977F2B294858E7A7D274FF4BF7EDFC2D57DEA6|
|E04C9AEB2592663ADF1689DCD064F377964F3E8369B1C4F2BDFC3D5B346CFF18166|
|D99C677381CD435E14E0D716621366136153CF26CAA6814D339B189B0E36476C2A7|
|F007520EDF2|
|-------------------------------------------------------------------|

Just looked real fast at the build for the ma/fire Bass, why on earth would you waste a defense/end hami on combat jumping? Those things are expensive to be saving .02 endurance/second Just go with a 50 common Defense IO, i think you'll be ok for the .15% defense loss.

Also missing out on blazing aura which is a huge boost to your damage. Would not skip that, which is almost double the aoe DPS of fireball before factoring in focus chi/FE. Bout 1.5 times more when those are factored in.

You'd really never use boxing (or shouldnt especially with that slotting) You should REALLY move those slots into consume, which you can slot a full set of obliteration into and give consume some good boosting stats as well as get that melee defense bonus (which is more than from razzle dazzle "actually" putting you over the cap). FYI for the end you'll gain by slotting consume, and from what you're build has already easily ditch the numina unique out of health for your last 6th slot of obliteration in it.

I'm learning a lot from this thread, especially a couple of the sample builds. This forum is more helpful than, say, Controllers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windenergy21 Are you trying to do a pvp build also? Noticed the increased perception proc in your FA in that build...

This is strictly PvE, and FA will never be turned on. I decided that a passive perception bonus would be better than Conserve Power, since I don't expect to have huge endurance problems and Conserve is on too long a recharge cycle to be highly useful anyway; if I'm wrong about the endurance problem thing, I'll take Conserve Power and maybe axe 3% of my defense to pick up Consume.

Quote:

Also confused as to why you keep slotting RotP with AA, i understand the bonuses, but thats 4 slots pretty much wasted on a power that doesn't need them.

I'm considering slotting Obliteration instead, to get more damage out of this, and I might put a slot from Hasten in as EndMod so I start fuller if I have Endurance problems, but I'm not planning on leaving this near-empty. You seem to plan on not dying; I prefer to plan on just never being dead. With a self-rez, there's an important distinction there. My Fire Armor build doesn't need to keep me alive, it just needs to keep me from dying more often than my ability to stand back up can easily support.

Quote:

By slotting FA instead also you are GREATLY boosting the end discount on FA as well.

You seem to fixate on FA, so I'll take this opportunity to repeat that it's not turning on.

Quote:

You'll definitely just want 3 slots in hasten btw, ED cap and all.

It's not a real "cap." It's "diminishing returns." The fourth slot in Hasten takes the recharge down by about six seconds; it doesn't sound like much, but in actual practice those last few seconds are always the most annoying if you're actually waiting for it, and I didn't feel like I had anywhere better to put the slot. That said, it's a "floating slot," it's the first one I would move if I needed to shift slots around.

Quote:

The overall defense of this build is far less as well, missing tough too. I've played fire tanks before, and they're pretty squishy. With the bonuses from defense + tough/weave its makes it decently sturdy enough.

I'm not a tank. Nobody, including me, cares if I die, especially if there's a 20-second Mag 4 stun that fires every time I do (and I don't stay dead). Also, while you guys guided me to some builds with Tough and Weave that I actually liked, I realized that I want to minimize my toggle use so that I spend less time toggling up after RotP. I'm already a bit piqued at having 4, but I certainly don't see a way to do without both armors, Blazing Aura, and Combat Jumping. (I could use Burn as Immob protection, but that's bad for my slotting, DPA, and global bonuses.) Frankly, I'd sooner take Assault than Tough or Weave, even without the Boxing prerequisite.

Quote:

Any toon i've had laser beam eyes on i find i almost never use it, always seems like the animation is too long where i coudl get off 2 melee attacks before it finishes.

I'm on the fence about this too. I love the global bonuses for that set, but it's also one of the most expensive, and the slots could be used to mitigate the loss. It looks cool and it's nice to have a ranged attack better than Revolver at times, but I don't actually see many reasons not to move it to 49 and leave it 2- or 4-slotted (perhaps with Accurate Defense Debuff). I could also take a slot from Hasten and put it in Laser Eyes to let me six-slot Thunderstrike for some ranged defense.

Quote:

Bumping from RotP into focus chi then (regarding 6 gaussians in FA) you can put 5 adjusted targettings in focus chi, capping its recharge and still getting those bonuses.

Ooh, good idea. I'm not going to do exactly that (see the RotP comments above), but you've given me a couple of ideas for shifting things around. I like that Adjusted Targeting gives both Damage and Recharge. I'll post a sample build when I've considered this.

Quote:

As to the +recharge procs you keep seeming to put in there, i've never really found a good enough use out of them. ... I've always found simply slotting a 50 recharge IO in those aoe poewrs to be much more efficient and reliable.

It's very nice in the proper situations. I have quite a bit of experience with it as well, and I think it will be good to have here. I am considering a generic 50 Rech for Energy Torrent, but note that Dragon's Tail is already at the ED "cap" for recharge. I don't plan to change the slotting for Dragon's Tail, regardless of anything else that happens in the build.

Quote:

Healing flames, 6 numinas may give a defense bonus, but to get all 6 of those enhancementsi s going to cost you probalby around 100 mil, versus 6 doctored wounds which with salvage/crafting probably won't cost you more than 10 mil, while granting a recharge bonus in the process instead of fairly unnecessary regeneration, and a small hp boost.

First, I don't think there's any good reason to use 6 Doctored Wounds. 5 works great for Reconstruction and Healing Aura--better, in fact, than 6 Numina's--and I expect the same to be true for Healing Flames. Naturally, freeing the slot up is a point in favor of DW, but the Regen and Defense is drawing me toward Numina's.

Secondly, the cost analysis would be more valid if I didn't keep getting them as random drops at my level of preference. (This statement also applies to the following: LotG+R, Run/Jump +Stealth, Kinetic Combat, Steadfast Protection, Positron's Blast.) I could sell them when I get them as drops, of course, but in general I don't make builds with the assumption that price is no concern.

This build would look quite a bit different if I assumed I had billions of inf to work with. I would actually sacrifice some survivability to slot totally for global recharge and damage. As it is, the kind of recharge I want is only available with a lot of purples, since Hasten is invalidated by all the dying, and this character has no access to Sleep and Confuse sets. Darkness Mastery would allow me to use Stun, Immob, and Hold, but those are still expensive and I would still need two of the billion-inf-each Damage sets. A sample "absurd cost" build would be something like this: Click this DataLink to open the build!