Looks like Val's build lol. You'll want to get the accolades but other than that I don't see much wrong with it. Personally I wouldn't skip build up, over time Tactics will give you more to hit but that damage buff is great for burst damage.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
Well Soaring Dragon does more damage than Gamblers Cut even w/o Hecatomb, so i would put it in SD not GC.
And I would definately give more slots to IH take a few slots away from anything and at least give it 2 rech, 2 heals. The way you have it slotted almost isnt worth the power pick i would drop it for BU rather than keep it like that.
Other than that all looks good!
my 2 inf
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I definately used his build to help me out and give me some ideas. I was wondering if I should replace Tactics with Build up. Was having a tough time decide. But as I was planning to solo AV's and higher level foes I was wondering if Tactics would be more useful in the long run.
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Originally Posted by Santorican
Looks like Val's build lol. You'll want to get the accolades but other than that I don't see much wrong with it. Personally I wouldn't skip build up, over time Tactics will give you more to hit but that damage buff is great for burst damage.
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Originally Posted by Crysys
Peacebringers at least got a recent overhaul. They moved up from sucktastic to craptacular.
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Actually only a small part of IH's healing is enhanceable so it's not really worth the healing slots. I usually slot it with 3 striaght recharge IOs. Also, Hecatomb is better in GC since it is used twice as often as SD.
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Originally Posted by CryoTech
Well Soaring Dragon does more damage than Gamblers Cut even w/o Hecatomb, so i would put it in SD not GC.
And I would definately give more slots to IH take a few slots away from anything and at least give it 2 rech, 2 heals. The way you have it slotted almost isnt worth the power pick i would drop it for BU rather than keep it like that. Other than that all looks good! my 2 inf |
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True, I didnt think about the DPS of katana, im used to the burst damage of BSword, but either way GC doesnt benefit from the entire Hecatomb set as a whole as much as SD would since it has a much faster recharge than SD.|
Originally Posted by DaveMebs
Actually only a small part of IH's healing is enhanceable so it's not really worth the healing slots. I usually slot it with 3 striaght recharge IOs. Also, Hecatomb is better in GC since it is used twice as often as SD.
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Also I'm curious, since you never actually stated it, but is this build for pvp or pve? I had assumed it was for pvp
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Well, if you slot the Hecatomb in GC you can utilize the set twice every time you run through the GC-->SD-->GC-->GD chain. However, slotting it in SD will aallow you to use it only once per chain. In random running around a room, typical play you may benefit from the hecatomb set more but in a strict, prolonged fight in which top DPS is the goal, it's best to slot the Hecatomb set in GC. (Plus the proc is awesome so you want that up as much as possible)
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Originally Posted by CryoTech
True, I didnt think about the DPS of katana, im used to the burst damage of BSword, but either way GC doesnt benefit from the entire Hecatomb set as a whole as much as SD would since it has a much faster recharge than SD.
Also I'm curious, since you never actually stated it, but is this build for pvp or pve? I had assumed it was for pvp |
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PvE
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Originally Posted by CryoTech
True, I didnt think about the DPS of katana, im used to the burst damage of BSword, but either way GC doesnt benefit from the entire Hecatomb set as a whole as much as SD would since it has a much faster recharge than SD.
Also I'm curious, since you never actually stated it, but is this build for pvp or pve? I had assumed it was for pvp |
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Originally Posted by Crysys
Peacebringers at least got a recent overhaul. They moved up from sucktastic to craptacular.
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The Hecatomb is best left in Gambler's Cut. As DaveMebs says, your DPS chain is GC->SD->GC->GD, so you get two procs to just one if it's in Soaring Dragon. But it's actually better than that. One Divine Avalanche soft caps you, so you'll probably want to run DA->GC->GD->GC->SD->GC most of the time, which gives you three procs instead of just one.
As far as which power benefits most from the recharge of the Hecatomb set, Soaring Dragon IS a bit of a problem when running the DPS chain. It needs to recharge in 3.83 seconds, but is at 3.98 seconds. But that's easily fixed by going to some other slotting in Soaring Dragon. Touch of Death doesn't seem to be doing much for the build anyway.
With all the global recharge, you should swap the damage/recharge in Gambler's Cut for the damage. You'll still have more than enough recharge even when Hasten is down.
"That's because Werner can't do maths." - BunnyAnomaly
"Four hours in, and I was no longer making mistakes, no longer detoggling. I was a machine." - Werner
Videos of Other Stupid Scrapper Tricks
Remove the Numina unique from Physical Perfection and put it in Fast Healing together with a Numina:Heal it's +12% regen at no cost.
If you have the cash, swap Doctored Wounds for Panacea ... that improves your recharge, regen, recovery and hp. Since you have 6 times the +10% regen bonus then, you can remove the LotG: Defense from MoG and redistribute that slot (which you could do anyway, imho).
I would swap the standard EndMod IOs in QR and PP for a third IO from the Performance Shifter set and sacrifice some recovery (not that much) to add some more hp.
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Credit where credit is due, Santor. I'm the one that designed Val's build. I'm not trying to be a diva, but it's his only because he uses it. The design was by me (and I actually spent a decent bit of time on it so you can understand why I'd want some friggin' credit).
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Originally Posted by Santorican
Looks like Val's build lol.
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It's not "no cost". It's the cost of 8.32% +recov. Considering that recovery is generally of more importance than +regen (especially where */Regen is concerned), it's better to keep it in PP for the greater level of recovery.|
Originally Posted by Myriad
Remove the Numina unique from Physical Perfection and put it in Fast Healing together with a Numina:Heal it's +12% regen at no cost.
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| If you have the cash, swap Doctored Wounds for Panacea ... that improves your recharge, regen, recovery and hp. Since you have 6 times the +10% regen bonus then, you can remove the LotG: Defense from MoG and redistribute that slot (which you could do anyway, imho). |
Getting rid of the LotG: Def is actually a smart idea. It should be an LotG Def/Rech (if you're conforming to the standard I generated for it way back when). I'm pretty sure the OP just got his IOs confused when putting the build together.
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| I would swap the standard EndMod IOs in QR and PP for a third IO from the Performance Shifter set and sacrifice some recovery (not that much) to add some more hp. |
Hrmf... seems I need to be more thorough before I say something next time.
Umbral is right, of course. At least I learned something I wasn't aware of. I didn't know, that the global bonus from uniques (and other IOs?) was affected by other enhancements slotted into the same power (and considering the fixed value in the description I'm not so sure it's intentional).
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We don't know if it's intentional, but, from the actions the devs haven't taken thus far (I'm not sure, but I have a feeling that fixing it would only involve adding a "unaffected by enhancements or resistances" would solve the issue if there was one), I'm pretty sure it's working as intended. The only IOs I know of that benefit from this are the +recov and +regen IOs though I'd be interested in seeing if the +res and +def IOs work in the same manner....
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Originally Posted by Myriad
Hrmf... seems I need to be more thorough before I say something next time.
Umbral is right, of course. At least I learned something I wasn't aware of. I didn't know, that the global bonus from uniques (and other IOs?) was affected by other enhancements slotted into the same power (and considering the fixed value in the description I'm not so sure it's intentional). |
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That would be cool for some sets that have powers that take def and res sets.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
We don't know if it's intentional, but, from the actions the devs haven't taken thus far (I'm not sure, but I have a feeling that fixing it would only involve adding a "unaffected by enhancements or resistances" would solve the issue if there was one), I'm pretty sure it's working as intended. The only IOs I know of that benefit from this are the +recov and +regen IOs though I'd be interested in seeing if the +res and +def IOs work in the same manner....
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"All problems can be solved by throwing enough scrappers at it."
@Riez on Virtue, Protector, Champion, and Exalted server.
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I don't think the Regen bonuses are really worth it on Regen/Willpower based builds, as it's only a very marginal improvement, which would be hardly noticeable. It's not like a SR or SD based build where those regen boosts really shine. |
Originally Posted by Myriad
Remove the Numina unique from Physical Perfection and put it in Fast Healing together with a Numina:Heal it's +12% regen at no cost.
If you have the cash, swap Doctored Wounds for Panacea ... that improves your recharge, regen, recovery and hp. Since you have 6 times the +10% regen bonus then, you can remove the LotG: Defense from MoG and redistribute that slot (which you could do anyway, imho). I would swap the standard EndMod IOs in QR and PP for a third IO from the Performance Shifter set and sacrifice some recovery (not that much) to add some more hp. |
Otherwise, that looks like a really nice build......not than I'm a pro.
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On a Regen they are (mostly) not. Read Umbrals post above to see why.|
Originally Posted by SkillyHizoh
I don't think the Regen bonuses are really worth it on Regen/Willpower based builds, as it's only a very marginal improvement, which would be hardly noticeable.
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On a WP they make a very noticeable difference, trust me on that. That doesn't mean the +regen bonus is always the best choice, of course.
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Considering I never said anything specifically about why +regen is largely pointless on a */Regen (in this thread, that is). What I got into earlier was +hp, which is a different beast entirely.|
Originally Posted by Myriad
On a Regen they are (mostly) not. Read Umbrals post above to see why.
On a WP they make a very noticeable difference, trust me on that. That doesn't mean the +regen bonus is always the best choice, of course. |
Even so, +regen is of marginal use to both */WP and */Regen. It's more pointless for a */Regen simply because */Regen has more damage recovery capability (~70 hp/sec compared to ~50 hp/sec, w/ SOs assuming 5 targets in RttC), but it's still rather redundant to add another 12% regen when you're already packing more than 500-600% regen already (that's 400-500% +regen, btw). The comparative advantages just aren't present like they are for sets that already have decent natural damage mitigation.
Try out this thought exercise: assume two sets achieve the same survivability. One achieves it through standard regeneration and native damage mitigation, and the other achieves it through 500% +regen and a tad bit of mitigation. Adding an extra 10% +regen is going to increase the first set's survivability by roughly 10% (100% regen to 110% regen is a 10% increase in survivability) whereas increasing the second set's survivability by roughly (600% to 610% is an increase of 1.67%). The comparative benefits are substantially lower.
(And now it's time for me to grind an axe with Castle) For an even more interesting look into the wonderful world of IO design preference, take these same two sets and look into adding an extra 5% damage mitigation. With 60% mitigation (roughly average for SOs), 5% more mitigation is going to generate an 14.3% increase in survivability ((1-.6)/(1-.65)). With 5% mitigation, it's going to generate a 5.55% increase in survivability. Pretty much no matter how you do it, the mitigation set wins out simply because regen has a diminishing real contribution whereas mitigation has an exponentially growing real contribution (until you reach saturation, which is going to give you survivability on par with balls-to-the-wall levels of damage recovery anyway).
I know, of course, that the reason it was implemented like this was pretty much dictated by the game engine but that doesn't mean I have to like it. Ever since I started playing with IOs, I've always felt more than a bit burned by the fact that damage recovery sets get majorly hosed when compared to traditional damage mitigation sets (because Castle hates */Regen).
Hm, I had this in my HD for BS/Regen, but I guess it can be adapted for Katana/Regen, hows this look like?:
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EDIT: There we go, I forgot to put CG instead of SotW | Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1412;705;1410;HEX;| |78DAA5934973124114C77B6010093B4876966C101233495C63A2F1206413944A345| |ED438212D990A35A1062A06E3C18B37B752AB3CA81FC4F2E427C3B73454591E9D82| |FFAFE7F5BFBBDF7B33533E2D0484787D5B68A13B75B3D9DCDBA93A66A3211D4FD9A| |C5955EF23B37E64396DAF1022D19DDA2BCBBA94C65DB365DA66B2172DC8E7D26E4A| |635BD6A42D1DB3651DDBD14DFB503AD26E19DD41B0727C5C37D6ACDA61CBB26B7D7| |4B7D390F2204AC34DFBC46A5AFB56DD6AB5C3142949F3403ACD43AB912836ACAA51| |309D235B42A665B3D9924E7B1052CBC3FF1DE64857C7239E0116856B9F5125E8070| |C49B8F0DB25445C14709546AB74314933E71E6A84554052E4B7003931B74BC1F75E| |E58643B413B29F7FC13825F4B5192F09FD7C481156B97995EEAED04681FB8C7B848| |93261B2445803BB877372793EB93014FACAC8D0B61FC0C0D576847796421FE1DE47| |A9753C3EAE30C2F546B8FA18F7226672F5093A691D56F955F57E4EAC9F131BE4C40| |639B1614ECC05F6A03A377846196D4028AC76088FBAC99C248CA61819C2629A300E| |F6A82A2DCA99CFFF053718E26CD0E2AB001DA28A3ACC25D4E2C4758CB9458A0B494| |50841700C7082AE01E5C8B023C38ECFE018520F70284B25A47284CC34612CCF9861| |BC216CC1AA11F50047B84F59EE5396FB94E53EE5B84F9B604F72A2223940AFD1170| |8A5D5B9E925DA74E216639930B9C2B84998E36E4461D5B8AA789CEBC8731D79555D| |091C53AAE22976E4A28C18E10CFA3EAD529FBE449BCF5C665C615CE513AF115E817| |D56D9670B14BA5864AC31D6098B1B84381C6FA8C7657CA3977DFE3B2106330BAA07| |0B6354CDA8DEFB42E1079728FD13A9E8BD0F4C681449EBBD2FF4BFAE9F81EE3EBEE| |D3ED0072815106D17478F519EE0ED531C9938DA47A9E26DE757A09B69780913BA81| |B28CB282F2164D5E3F881F2580124409A18451222871947E9461941F289D3FF3A0F| |1BF| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
EDIT AGAIN: For the curious, here's the original BS/Regen build I took this from:
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| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1417;709;1418;HEX;| |78DAA5934973124114C77B86414C80B04976966C101233495CB36852A5642D502AD| |1785171800E990A355003A549C583176F9EBC78503F88E5C90F66E15B1AAA2C8F4E| |C1FFD7F3FADFDDEFBD99295EE403427CD816DAD0E386D56E978FABAED56A49D75BB| |4EA76D5F7C26A9CDBEEA54F0831DE9B2A1765434AF391DBB46AE5E3774DB796E84F| |E5E5A974DAD23C9275E948D7EAD84D2772E09C49573A1DB33708969ACD86B96BD7C| |F3AB6531FA4BBE39694B5080D0F9CB776DBAED80DBB7319A248415A35E9B6CFEC56| |7CA76557CDBCE59E3B12D22D5AED8E742F4721BF1CFCCB98285D5DAF780358157A8| |5512518358624DCF8A50B1113795CA5D12A43CCD2CCB5E71A610B9010B94340562C| |9D50D0F229371CA2ADE918BABEC1D8240C3E603C240CF3213BB0CAC3AB0C4F89360| |A3C653C21CC1409B305C22ED8BD9C93EEFD4C1B0D7D61A429C30A18B8DAAEF02D52| |A80AF7039A4E890D708561AE37CCD547B917518BAB8FD3497BB0CAAFAAF77362C39| |CD8282736CA898D73623AD883EADCE01565B40FA190DA2134E9217382309964A409| |AB29C234D823AAB40867BEFC173C6088B1418B6D010C882A1A3017578BE3F731E61| |1492E24192604C131C209EA23CA9166479A1DA7E018530F702C432524B384F43C61| |2AC758607C241CC2AA09F50027B84F19EE5386FB94E13E65B94F07604F70A222314| |2AF511D4229756E6A9D369DF9CD70A9F0D90B06B76189118155D3AAE269AE23C775| |E454750570CCA98AE7D8918D30A2842BE8FBBC4A7DFE169DB8709B71877197B0748| |FF01EEC8BCABE98A7D0CD1DC62E638FB0BA4F88C1F1A67A5CE6577AD997BF11A230| |B3A27AB03245D54C1AFD2F147E7089C23F9192D1FFC084469194D1FF42FFEBFA11E| |8ED33703408FA0CA504A29DE0E825CA2BBC7D8D230B4715942ADE767F067A9986D6| |30A175940D944D944F68F2F941FC28019420CA104A08258C124319461947F98ED2F| |D03C5A6F2B4| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
EDIT YET AGAIN: I can't stop fiddling... Someone help!
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| Copy & Paste this data into Mids' Hero Designer to view the build | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| |MxDz;1412;701;1402;HEX;| |78DAA5934973124114C77B58826C210421090901B34048C22471CBA6499592B540A| |944E345C50974602AD4400D54999844BD78F3E4C5931FC4F2E407B3F02D0D178F4E| |C1FFD7FDDEEB9EF7EF99295EE403427CDE16DAE0D386D16E978F2BB6D16A49DB5D3| |46A66C5F3CA689C9BF6A5470811EFA5CA45D990527F62378D6AF9F87DD3AE26FAA9| |BC3C93565BEA47B2262D691B1DB369850FACBAB4A5D5D17B8360A9D96CE8BB66ADD| |E31AD9A8F66C72D29AB011A16A4D18278A837A94ABB5D375BD19D9659D1F3867D6E| |49E8B468B43BD2BE1C85D6B2F02F638F7475DDE21D6045384E191582ABCA9084DBB| |F1D4244441E5769B4CA250E609011032F352C18D8022444F69082B9130A1A1E550D| |E5DA9A0343B736189B04DF23C663C20E943B55B9B3443B049E339E11A68B8499026| |117CADDDC8CC3FD8D7618FCCE4851D3A750C036BBC2B340A10ACCBD9A836C7BD9DA| |101B1D62DBC37C08C306DB8ED29DF660955FD9F67363316E6C941B1BE5C6E2DC980| |3CA83EA6C831FA8A3C92B42EA9A90B921643F12963E11F6615548DD2434E1A49B24| |09F10461629291224C417998CBB5309B5B62382113E18C886C015CF083585455475| |731E614936C2E06A911951A51A914A7CE2035A68C8CA5D948868DCC11EE6419F38C| |2F84435835AE1EE3389F569A4F2BCDA795E6D3CAF0691D407942B59B18A1B7A806A| |1A4BA6F729D369DFEC3B0C9E2CC05830DE718615835A58C4CADB2EF0C1B29406A56| |BD09B31CBA82539C535DCEDDE5E7F190307F8F719FF1807003E50BAA7C6191428B3| |986CE5822E49609D750AEAB723DCF8F7987B0B2CBD863EC1322D0DFB23A8365D5FA| |84ABFF85C20F2E51F8275272F53F30A15124E9EA7FA1FF75FD0CF4F6F11EF9405FA| |09440B4131CBD467983D3B73832504E715AC151F757A0D769680D1B5A47D940D944| |F98A451E3F881F25801244194409A10CA14450622871941F28DDBFE01BF213| |-------------------------------------------------------------------|
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I didn't mean to imply that adding +regen to WP should be your 1st priority (or even 2nd) when creating a build. It isn't.
I was just saying that adding +regen to a WP can make a noticeable difference. And it does. Especially in surroundings where you can be detoggled.
Is it worth trying to add (more) regen to a WP? I'd say that always depends on the choice available. What do you sacrifice by adding more regen? If it's a MezRes or a buff to a travel power it would be an easy choice for me. If it's more defense it's an easy choice, too (defense wins in almost all cases). The choice is harder (for me) when it comes to recharge and resistance. In my main build (DB/WP), for example, I have more than enough recharge to run all my attack chains smoothly. The next better attack chain requires more +recharge than I can get without sacrificing power picks, that I want to keep. So what's the point in adding more recharge then? And +Res buffs (from IO sets) are often limited to exotic damage types. While some of them are useful I generally prefer a buff that increases my overall survivability. Even if that means the benefit against all damage types is marginal when compared to the benefit against the specific damage type (unless I try to close a hole in my defenses).
And for completeness: I value HP higher than regen (no Dull Pain for a WP) and view Recovery almost like Recharge with the difference that you can't really ever have enough +recovery. 
(Note: I kept this here instead of writing a PM, because I think what I wrote might be of use to a Regen, too. Don't want to hijack the thread.)
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Till this day Castle hasn't ever answered my give regeneration recharge/regeneration debuff resistance pm, it makes me sad panda. I have considered why he hasn't and really can't come up with any logical answer. The only problem that I see regeneration with debuff resistance running into is in PvP.
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Originally Posted by Umbral
Considering I never said anything specifically about why +regen is largely pointless on a */Regen (in this thread, that is). What I got into earlier was +hp, which is a different beast entirely.
Even so, +regen is of marginal use to both */WP and */Regen. It's more pointless for a */Regen simply because */Regen has more damage recovery capability (~70 hp/sec compared to ~50 hp/sec, w/ SOs assuming 5 targets in RttC), but it's still rather redundant to add another 12% regen when you're already packing more than 500-600% regen already (that's 400-500% +regen, btw). The comparative advantages just aren't present like they are for sets that already have decent natural damage mitigation. Try out this thought exercise: assume two sets achieve the same survivability. One achieves it through standard regeneration and native damage mitigation, and the other achieves it through 500% +regen and a tad bit of mitigation. Adding an extra 10% +regen is going to increase the first set's survivability by roughly 10% (100% regen to 110% regen is a 10% increase in survivability) whereas increasing the second set's survivability by roughly (600% to 610% is an increase of 1.67%). The comparative benefits are substantially lower. (And now it's time for me to grind an axe with Castle) For an even more interesting look into the wonderful world of IO design preference, take these same two sets and look into adding an extra 5% damage mitigation. With 60% mitigation (roughly average for SOs), 5% more mitigation is going to generate an 14.3% increase in survivability ((1-.6)/(1-.65)). With 5% mitigation, it's going to generate a 5.55% increase in survivability. Pretty much no matter how you do it, the mitigation set wins out simply because regen has a diminishing real contribution whereas mitigation has an exponentially growing real contribution (until you reach saturation, which is going to give you survivability on par with balls-to-the-wall levels of damage recovery anyway). I know, of course, that the reason it was implemented like this was pretty much dictated by the game engine but that doesn't mean I have to like it. Ever since I started playing with IOs, I've always felt more than a bit burned by the fact that damage recovery sets get majorly hosed when compared to traditional damage mitigation sets (because Castle hates */Regen). |
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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Well, that's the thing. */Regen and */WP have substantially different needs from IOs. */Regen benefits most from +rech and +def while getting virtually nothing from +hp. */WP benefits most from +hp and +def while getting virtually nothing from +rech (which is why you'll actually see most */WP builds run with second or third best attack strings; nothing defensive they have benefits from +rech). Both of them don't get a substantial benefit from +regen because they've got so very much of it already.|
Originally Posted by Myriad
What do you sacrifice by adding more regen?
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This doesn't mean, however, that you should ignore +regen altogether. If you can get more +regen at virtually no cost (such as tangential +regen from specific IO sets or obtaining some +regen at the cost of +recov when you're already past the point of infinite endurance sustainability), then you should go for it. The issue is when you're having to decide between +regen and virtually anything else as the anything else will, almost assuredly, contribute more to your survivability than anything else.
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Don't feel too bad. Castle has never answered a single PM I've ever sent him, a number of which had nothing whatsoever to do with debuff resistance or */Regen. One of the more interesting ones I sent him was a numerical analysis based on existing precedent that */Regen should actually be allowed to be numerically stronger than all of the other sets it competes with thanks to its animation time use. I really wish he read that, but I have a feeling he doesn't really care about the opinions or analysis of any other players aside from Arcanaville.|
Originally Posted by Santorican
Till this day Castle hasn't ever answered my give regeneration recharge/regeneration debuff resistance pm, it makes me sad panda. I have considered why he hasn't and really can't come up with any logical answer.
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| The only problem that I see regeneration with debuff resistance running into is in PvP. |
Of course, if that really was what mattered, they could just give the debuff resistance an "if NOT on a PvP map" tag and ignore the issue completely.
I still stand by my position that Castle just hates */Regen (well, that and it pisses off some of the people in the balance community that they haven't found a decent model to express the real contributions of non-defense debuff resistance).
I can agree with all of what you've said. Very few times have I seen him take advice from players.
Virtue: @Santorican
Dark/Shield Build Thread
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Oh, some things have happened nearly identical to ideas I've suggested on the forums (i.e. CP > Energize used disturbingly similar numbers to what I originally suggested in a random thread), but I never seen him outright say he takes anyone's advice or ideas except for Arcanaville.
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Originally Posted by Santorican
I can agree with all of what you've said. Very few times have I seen him take advice from players.
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What do you guys think of this build? Any ideas for improvement?