Permafrost and IOs


ClawsandEffect

 

Posted

I am having difficulty in calculating my build. I have two questions about Permafrost.

With IOs can Permafrost Increase Defense ? If so, by how much ?

What else can it increase with IOs other than resistance ?


I find it impossible to fit in the fighting pool to one of my Ice/EM builds so I am looking at other options , like Combat Jumping + Permafrost + Hover (My character concept is flight on this build)

Thanks.


 

Posted

Not that I'm an expert at ice tankers, but most of the comments I ever read about Ice is that permafrost is skippable on an Ice tanker. Since it is a resist you can put the steadfast +3% def/resist unique in there or you can four or five slot Reactive's to give you some defensive bonuses. If you go 5 or 6 slots you can get bonuses from the Titanium Coating or Aegis sets depending on what you want/need.

http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Main_Page This site has lots of good information about the game.


http://wiki.cohtitan.com/wiki/Invent...nt_Set_Bonuses
This is a good spot for information on IO set bonuses.


Throwing darts at the board to see if something sticks.....

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Tanks: Gauntlet, the streak breaker and you!
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Originally Posted by PapaSlade
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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rangle M. Down View Post
Not that I'm an expert at ice tankers, but most of the comments I ever read about Ice is that permafrost is skippable on an Ice tanker. Since it is a resist you can put the steadfast +3% def/resist unique in there
I agree it's skippable, but I took it and have just the one slot with the Steadfast unique. Hey, 3% def is 3% def.


Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project

 

Posted

Permafrost is pretty good as a IO mule if there's nothing else you'd like to take. However, I wouldn't just take it for the Steadfast +Def IO, it can also go into Hoarfrost. You could also pick up Tough and put it there; IMO Tough is a lot more beneficial than Permafrost.


My Characters

Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finduilas View Post
Permafrost is pretty good as a IO mule if there's nothing else you'd like to take. However, I wouldn't just take it for the Steadfast +Def IO, it can also go into Hoarfrost. You could also pick up Tough and put it there; IMO Tough is a lot more beneficial than Permafrost.
What else can I use it for with IOs ?


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by New_Dark_Age View Post
What else can I use it for with IOs ?
you can only use resist procs on permafrost if memory serves.

So that's the Resist anti-knockback.

The resist +def 3%

and the Aegis Psi / status resist proc.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by je_saist View Post
you can only use resist procs on permafrost if memory serves.

So that's the Resist anti-knockback.

The resist +def 3%

and the Aegis Psi / status resist proc.
I'd argue that none of those except the Steadfast +Def is worth the infl for a Ice tanker.

To the OP: Permafrost just takes resist sets, so anything you could put in it would also go in Tough or any other resist power. I think taking Tough would be more beneficial, but it does take 2 power slots compared to one for PF. But since the one resist IO you should really get is the SP +def and that can go into Hoarfrost, IMO it seems like you could find a better use for that power slot than PF.

EDIT: If you really want to go with Flight on your Ice tank, you can. I have an Ice/Axe that has Air Sup/Fly, no CJ, Tough but not Weave, and still manages to soft-cap S/L/E/NE.


My Characters

Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finduilas View Post
I'd argue that none of those except the Steadfast +Def is worth the infl for a Ice tanker.

To the OP: Permafrost just takes resist sets, so anything you could put in it would also go in Tough or any other resist power. I think taking Tough would be more beneficial, but it does take 2 power slots compared to one for PF. But since the one resist IO you should really get is the SP +def and that can go into Hoarfrost, IMO it seems like you could find a better use for that power slot than PF.

EDIT: If you really want to go with Flight on your Ice tank, you can. I have an Ice/Axe that has Air Sup/Fly, no CJ, Tough but not Weave, and still manages to soft-cap S/L/E/NE.
won't find me arguing. I skipped Permafrost on my ice / mace. I couldn't justify the procs for it.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by New_Dark_Age View Post
What else can I use it for with IOs ?
Forgot to mention that besides the SP +Def, IMO the best resist sets for typed defense bonuses are Reactive Armor (4 slots) or Aegis (3 slots). As I mentioned, they could go into either Tough or Permafrost. They could also go into Hoarfrost, but you really want to dedicate at least 5 slots in HF to Heal/Recharge.


My Characters

Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012

 

Posted

Gromar was my first tank and is ice/axe. I took it and slotted the Impervium Armour set for psi etc. The recharge/slow resist does help.

I need to do a respec and I will probably keep the power.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finduilas View Post
I'd argue that none of those except the Steadfast +Def is worth the infl for a Ice tanker.

To the OP: Permafrost just takes resist sets, so anything you could put in it would also go in Tough or any other resist power. I think taking Tough would be more beneficial, but it does take 2 power slots compared to one for PF. But since the one resist IO you should really get is the SP +def and that can go into Hoarfrost, IMO it seems like you could find a better use for that power slot than PF.

EDIT: If you really want to go with Flight on your Ice tank, you can. I have an Ice/Axe that has Air Sup/Fly, no CJ, Tough but not Weave, and still manages to soft-cap S/L/E/NE.
So with all my Armors, Energy Absorption, Combat Jumping and that Steadfast IO , one can reach the soft cap ? I thought Weave was almost required.

Just curious but how many enemies must you hit with EA to be softcapped on your build ?

I am also kinda reluctant to use the Steadfast IO in Hoarfrost. Since it is my main heal, I figured I needed all six slots to enhance the heal and recharge. If placing the Steadfast IO in Hoarfrost is the most logical thing to do, can you dispell my doubts please.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by New_Dark_Age View Post
So with all my Armors, Energy Absorption, Combat Jumping and that Steadfast IO , one can reach the soft cap ? I thought Weave was almost required.

Just curious but how many enemies must you hit with EA to be softcapped on your build ?

I am also kinda reluctant to use the Steadfast IO in Hoarfrost. Since it is my main heal, I figured I needed all six slots to enhance the heal and recharge. If placing the Steadfast IO in Hoarfrost is the most logical thing to do, can you dispell my doubts please.
Short version, no. I suspect that Finduilas used IO sets like Kinetic Combat, which tend to be very expensive in the market place.

You can soft cap ice against smashing / lethal just by using SO's, combat jumping, weave, EA, and the Steadfast proc.

As to how many enemies, takes around 8 or so if you are using SO's.

***

Also, don't treat Hoarfrost like a heal, because it isn't.

It's a buff. You want to trigger Hoarfrost before you go into a fight so your regeneration benefits from the 800~1000 extra HP it can offer. This also helps you soak up alpha strikes before you can bring EA, Chilling Embrance, and your attacks to bear on the mob's recharge and hp.

If you're using Hoarfrost just to pull yourself away from 0 health, you are going to go splat. You're oh kitty litter I'm in trouble power is Hibernate.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by New_Dark_Age View Post
So with all my Armors, Energy Absorption, Combat Jumping and that Steadfast IO , one can reach the soft cap ? I thought Weave was almost required.

Just curious but how many enemies must you hit with EA to be softcapped on your build ?

I am also kinda reluctant to use the Steadfast IO in Hoarfrost. Since it is my main heal, I figured I needed all six slots to enhance the heal and recharge. If placing the Steadfast IO in Hoarfrost is the most logical thing to do, can you dispell my doubts please.
Permafrost may be skippable, but the power has a lot of decent things to offer. Fire Res, which you'll be in need of, and -rech/-slow resist, which can greatly benefit you (especially in Caltrop fanatic situations). Add in the 3% def if you slot it with Steadfast, and you're making it even better.

Now, if you just want to skip it outright, then 5-slot Doctored Wounds into Hoarfrost and use the 6th slot for the 3% def. You may not have ED-capped heal and recharge, but it will be close.

(Oh, and good choice with Ice/EM **points at avatar**)


@Rylas

Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.

 

Posted

My planned build (the character is currently level 32) will have 44.9% S/L def and 44.3 E/NE def without EA. That includes one set of Kinetic Combat and a whole bunch of less expensive IOs.

As Rylas said, Permafrost isn't necessarily a bad pick, it does give a little fire resistance and some slow resistance (which EA also has). IMO, it isn't enough fire resistance to help that much--you'll still definitely have a weakness to fire damage--but it's not entirely useless. I just think there are usually other picks that help more.

If you're using SOs, I'd definitely recommend 6-slotting Hoarfrost 3 Rch/3 Heal. However, using IOs--common or set--you can easily get away with 5 slots instead, just like you can fully slot attacks in 5 slots using IOs.

It would be easier to make suggestions if you could post your build and let us know what your goals are. I tend to assume that players want to soft-cap defense, but I know that's not always the case.


My Characters

Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finduilas View Post
My planned build (the character is currently level 32) will have 44.9% S/L def and 44.3 E/NE def without EA. That includes one set of Kinetic Combat and a whole bunch of less expensive IOs.

As Rylas said, Permafrost isn't necessarily a bad pick, it does give a little fire resistance and some slow resistance (which EA also has). IMO, it isn't enough fire resistance to help that much--you'll still definitely have a weakness to fire damage--but it's not entirely useless. I just think there are usually other picks that help more.

If you're using SOs, I'd definitely recommend 6-slotting Hoarfrost 3 Rch/3 Heal. However, using IOs--common or set--you can easily get away with 5 slots instead, just like you can fully slot attacks in 5 slots using IOs.

It would be easier to make suggestions if you could post your build and let us know what your goals are. I tend to assume that players want to soft-cap defense, but I know that's not always the case.
I will probably post my build after work. I do not know how to use that hero builder or whatever you call it so I will do it the old fashioned way.


 

Posted

Quote:
Permafrost may be skippable, but the power has a lot of decent things to offer. Fire Res, which you'll be in need of, and -rech/-slow resist, which can greatly benefit you (especially in Caltrop fanatic situations). Add in the 3% def if you slot it with Steadfast, and you're making it even better.
... with Wet Ice and EA you're already at 80% resistance to recharge / speed debuffs. Toss in a Winter's Gift Proc and you're sitting at 100% blue cap. So I'm puzzled, very puzzled, as to where you are getting this greatly benefit line... because it doesn't.




Second, permafrost's fire resistance is 12.5%. If you cap it into ed, that's 12.5 / 2 * 3, or 18.75%. Okay, coupled with Frozen Armor's 12.5% resist, that is a respectable ~30% resistance. Yet, my own ice tank without Permafrost can mow through Nemesis, Circle of Thorns, and Cimerorans without issue, and those are the high level groups that use fire attacks.

Really, it's just best to quad slot Tough with Aegis Resist, Aegis Resist / Endurance, Steadfast Resist / Endurance, Steadfast Resist / Def. You can still be pressing an ED limited 57% resist boost and a 48% endurance reduction, while still benefiting from the defensive proc.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finduilas View Post
Permafrost is pretty good as a IO mule if there's nothing else you'd like to take. However, I wouldn't just take it for the Steadfast +Def IO, it can also go into Hoarfrost.
True, but I didn't have any space left in Hoarfrost.

Quote:
You could also pick up Tough and put it there; IMO Tough is a lot more beneficial than Permafrost.
Also true, but that's TWO power picks to get Tough and my ice tank does not have it.


Paragon City Search And Rescue
The Mentor Project

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by je_saist View Post
... with Wet Ice and EA you're already at 80% resistance to recharge / speed debuffs. Toss in a Winter's Gift Proc and you're sitting at 100% blue cap. So I'm puzzled, very puzzled, as to where you are getting this greatly benefit line... because it doesn't.




Second, permafrost's fire resistance is 12.5%. If you cap it into ed, that's 12.5 / 2 * 3, or 18.75%. Okay, coupled with Frozen Armor's 12.5% resist, that is a respectable ~30% resistance. Yet, my own ice tank without Permafrost can mow through Nemesis, Circle of Thorns, and Cimerorans without issue, and those are the high level groups that use fire attacks.

Really, it's just best to quad slot Tough with Aegis Resist, Aegis Resist / Endurance, Steadfast Resist / Endurance, Steadfast Resist / Def. You can still be pressing an ED limited 57% resist boost and a 48% endurance reduction, while still benefiting from the defensive proc.
It's beneficial because I don't use the Fighting Pool for my Ice/EM. Hence, only a power selection is taken, and not 3. And extra slots for other powers. My other Ice/ has capped without the use of the Fighting pool. What may be beneficial for you, may not be beneficial for others, and vice-versa. There's no need to act like there's only one way to build a tank. And certainly no need to feel offended by others' use of powers.

Also, Fire res on my Ice/EM is around 45%. So, you can see how the mileage varies for everyone.

[edit] Also, next time you post screencaps, you may want to put them at a higher res. I know what you're trying to show, but for I couldn't ready anything.


@Rylas

Kill 'em all. Let XP sort 'em out.

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ironblade View Post
True, but I didn't have any space left in Hoarfrost.
As I said in a later post, if you're using SOs, you probably won't. With IOs, however, it's pretty easy to fully slot it, (or close to it) with 5 slots.

Quote:
Also true, but that's TWO power picks to get Tough and my ice tank does not have it.
Yep, that's definitely a downside of using Tough. I just wanted to make sure the OP knows that there are alternatives for slotting the Steadfast +Def other than taking Permafrost for that purpose.


My Characters

Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012

 

Posted

As has been said, Permfrost is certainly skippable but it does have things going for it.

The slow resist isn't of utmost importance on an ice tank as you already get good slow resist, but it is nice to have more of that slow not require enemies. Say I arrive late to a fight with knives, permafrost helps the caltrops slow me less until I can I can get into EA range, where they stop slowing me at all. The fire resist is nice, helps patch up a hole in your defenses. It will still be a hole of course, just a bit less of one. Is it vitally important to have permafrost? No but it's a non-negligable boost. I personally have it on my ice tank but I just left it at the base slot.

Wether you take it or not would ultimately depend on how tight your build is, just as a comparison. People are advocating taking tough instead, I had a Ice/DB tank and I wanted all the combos (or at least sweep + attack vitals, which means you take about everything :P) so I was running very short on power picks. Permafrost made a great place to stick the unique with minimal investment of my very limited power choices, and even without the unique (which I actually don't have yet, haven't IOd her) it gives tangible benefits.


 

Posted

Here is my fun build. My other build will probably be for single target.


ICE ARMOR
Hoarfrost
Wet Ice
Frozen Armor
Chilling Embrace
Glacial Armor
Energy Absorption
Hibernate

ENERGY MELEE
Barrarge
Bone Smasher
Whirling Hands
Build Up
Energy Transfer
Total Focus


FITNESS
Swift
Health
Stamina

SPEED
Hasten

LEAPING
Combat Jumping

FLIGHT
Hover or Air Superiority
Flight

ARCTIC MASTERY
Block of Ice
Ice Blast
Ice Storm

So that leaves one power to pick. Since this guy isnt my 1 v 1 build , I just want him to be able to jump into a group of plus 4 enemies and barely have a scratch on him while having good solo efficiency. I currently have about 200 million at my desposal.


 

Posted

With those picks, I'd probably go with Icicles as the last power. Icicles would complement the ice anciliary powers, and give EM some much-needed AoE damage. Besides, Icicles is much more fun than Permafrost!

If you're interested in soft-capping, it still can be done without Weave, and I don't think it'll take all of that 200 million. Let us know when you want to spec out with IOs and we can give you some help if you need it.


My Characters

Knight Court--A CoH Story Complete 2/3/2012

 

Posted

Here is my build with no fighting pool. It's pretty effective with being at the S/L cap and over by about 2% on E/NE.


Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.601
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Click this DataLink to open the build!

Bitter Pyro: Level 50 Science Tanker
Primary Power Set: Ice Armor
Secondary Power Set: Fiery Melee
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Pyre Mastery

Hero Profile:
Level 1: Frozen Armor -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx:50(A), RedFtn-Def/Rchg:50(3), RedFtn-EndRdx:50(7), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(9), RedFtn-Def:50(42), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg:50(43)
Level 1: Scorch -- S'ngH'mkr-Acc/Dmg:35(A), S'ngH'mkr-Dmg/EndRdx:35(3), S'ngH'mkr-Dmg/Rchg:35(7), S'ngH'mkr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(13), F'dSmite-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:40(40)
Level 2: Chilling Embrace -- EndRdx-I:50(A), Taunt-I:50(46)
Level 4: Hoarfrost -- Dct'dW-Heal:50(A), Dct'dW-Rchg:50(5), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx:50(5), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg:50(9), Dct'dW-EndRdx/Rchg:50(15)
Level 6: Wet Ice -- EndRdx-I:50(A)
Level 8: Hurdle -- Jump-I:50(A)
Level 10: Combustion -- C'ngBlow-Dmg/EndRdx:50(A), C'ngBlow-Dmg/Rchg:50(11), Erad-Dmg/Rchg:30(11), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:30(13), C'ngBlow-Acc/Rchg:50(15), Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:30(42)
Level 12: Combat Jumping -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx:50(A)
Level 14: Super Jump -- Jump-I:50(A)
Level 16: Health -- Heal-I:50(A), Heal-I:50(17), Heal-I:50(17)
Level 18: Glacial Armor -- RedFtn-Def/EndRdx:50(A), RedFtn-Def/Rchg:50(19), RedFtn-EndRdx:50(19), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(25), RedFtn-Def:50(42), RedFtn-EndRdx/Rchg:50(43)
Level 20: Stamina -- Efficacy-EndMod:50(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg:50(21), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg:50(21), Efficacy-EndMod/EndRdx:50(40)
Level 22: Icicles -- C'ngBlow-Acc/Dmg:50(A), C'ngBlow-Dmg/EndRdx:50(23), M'Strk-Dmg/EndRdx:50(23), M'Strk-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(25), M'Strk-Acc/EndRdx:50(31)
Level 24: Permafrost -- S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(A)
Level 26: Energy Absorption -- RedFtn-Def/Rchg:50(A), Efficacy-EndMod/Rchg:50(27), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg:50(27), LkGmblr-Def/Rchg:50(34), RedFtn-Def/EndRdx:50(34), Efficacy-EndMod:50(46)
Level 28: Fire Sword Circle -- C'ngBlow-Dmg/Rchg:50(A), C'ngBlow-Dmg/EndRdx:50(29), Erad-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:30(29), Erad-Dmg/Rchg:30(34), C'ngBlow-Acc/Rchg:50(37), Erad-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:30(50)
Level 30: Taunt -- Mocking-Taunt:50(A), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg:50(31), Mocking-Taunt/Rchg/Rng:50(31), Mocking-Rchg:50(43), Mocking-Taunt/Rng:50(46)
Level 32: Build Up -- GSFC-Build%:50(A), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx:50(33), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg:50(33), Rec'dRet-ToHit:20(33), Rec'dRet-Pcptn:20(37)
Level 35: Incinerate -- S'ngH'mkr-Acc/Dmg:35(A), S'ngH'mkr-Dmg/EndRdx:35(36), S'ngH'mkr-Dmg/Rchg:35(36), S'ngH'mkr-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(36), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(37)
Level 38: Greater Fire Sword -- KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx:35(39), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg:35(39), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(39), C'ngImp-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(40)
Level 41: Char -- EoCur-Acc/Rchg:50(A)
Level 44: Fire Blast -- Thundr-Acc/Dmg:50(A), Thundr-Dmg/EndRdx:50(45), Thundr-Dmg/Rchg:50(45), Thundr-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(45)
Level 47: Fire Ball -- Det'tn-Acc/Dmg:50(A), Det'tn-Dmg/EndRdx:50(48), Det'tn-Dmg/Rchg:50(48), Det'tn-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(48), RechRdx-I:50(50)
Level 49: Hibernate -- H'zdH-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg:30(A), H'zdH-Heal/Rchg:40(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet











Cheers


[B] GUARDIAN 50s:[/B] [B]Tank[/B]: Ice/Fire, Fire/Fire, DA/SS, Inv/WM, SD/Elec...[B]Scrap[/B]: BS/Reg, Spin/DA, DM/SD, Fire/WP, Claws/SR....[B]Troller[/B]: Ill/Rad, Fire/Kin...[B]Blaster[/B]: Fire/EM....[B]Defender[/B]: D3...[B]Brute[/B]: Elm/ElA...[B]EPIC[/B]: Widow, PB, Crab...CURRENTLY: 45 Stone/Stone Tank...38 AR/Rad Corr...21 Ice^3 Dom

 

Posted

I'm planning on taking Permafrost at level 49 on my Ice/Electric tank. I need the level 50 slots elsewhere and figured a power that doesn't need any slots would be a good idea there. Gonna drop the Steadfast proc in it.

At that point in my build there's nothing else I really want or need, so it makes sense for me, your experience or build may differ.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison
See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately.