Vanguard Pricing

Thanks for proving you haven't been keeping up with the thread. I pointed out this very point a few posts ago, and so I offered a secondary argument:

Please explain what logic there is in a hat (not even a full helmet) costing the same amount of accrued reputation as a giant robot. Considering the Vanguard willingly gives out disposable robots wearing more armor than is actually in the Vanguard costume set...

Moreover, I take offense to your tone. My "agenda" isn't nefarious, nor is it whining. And, maybe if the RWZ was the only end-game zone available, you might have a point about negative consequences of reducing a pointless grind, but since there's other content out there to experience, the prices are too damned high. I don't feel like spending all of my playtime in the War Zone.

And, to repeat this, since the point keeps getting lost: The thrust of these threads have always been to lower the prices. Not to give out the costumes for free, or as a booby prize. We're perfectly willing to work towards a goal, but the scale of that goal as it currently stands is absurd for those unwilling or incapable of doing Ship Raids. Not to mention those of us who would like to start a Vanguard character from level 1.

The enforcer pieces look similar but are completely different and outright ugly compared to the vanguard set. Atleast to me anyway.

Send. Some. Tells. You don't just have the people that are sitting around in RWZ to help you out. Ask some people in your global channels (assuming their resonably active ones) if they're interested in running a raid. Throw out some tells to random individuals of every AT that aren't currently occupied with teams or missions. Once again, you'd be amazed at how easy it is.

Considering it's a pretty swank looking sword based around the story and visual aspects of a level 50 zone, I'm going to have to say that 60 minutes running around with a high level toon isn't actually all that hard (assuming that the high level toon has the badge in the first place isn't particularly reliable).

Completely and utterly ********. If you want to get to level 2, you can use a different sword until you get to level 2. The lack of that sword isn't preventing you from going through the tutorial. The lack of the sword isn't stopping you from defeating enemies. The only thing the lack of the sword is doing is making you ***** and moan about not having the sword at every possible level.

Considering the incredibly variable nature of aesthetics, I'm willing to concede that you might think that some or all of the unlockable costume pieces look tacky. That's the entire point though: you can't outright say that all of the prestige costume items are tacky. You can only say that you believe they look tacky. You're assuming everyone shares the same aesthetics as you do.

And, dear god, restricting people from 1% of the costume pieces in the game that are specifically tied to specific in-game content is going to shoot that concept in the foot? Even without the unlockable costume pieces, we've still got an incredible ability to make costumes.

Actually, that's also completely ********. It doesn't matter if something looks better as long as it looks different. If it looks different, then it's obvious it's not the normal piece so it still has the prestige attached to it. Of course, they can't give pieces that would be really prestigous by virtue of the fact that you and others like you would throw a massive hissy at the inability to actually have insert costume piece that is pretty enough to want, even if the devs wanted to exclude that costume piece just to specific individuals to represent their contribution to the game.

Once again, opinion stated as fact.

You really need to learn what the hell words mean. Nowhere in there did I insult your intelligence, though, apparently, you're insulting your own because you can't apparently read what's in front of you.

And I have made arguments against the concepts and suggestions, none of which you're even remotely willing to listen to. The primary crux of your argument is that everyone needs to have every costume piece available to them at all times because otherwise the game will wither and die because everyone likes making new and interesting costumes rather than simply playing with it on occasion and spending most of their time engrossed in the actual gameplay and social aspects. I'm busy tearing down the crux of your argument while you say "but I'm right and you're rude!".

Value is a completely subjective measure (considering everything we've been arguing is subjective). What you may consider high value may, to me, be considered low value, and vice versa. I, personally, found the value of the VG costume pieces to be identical to the costs of them. They were easy to get, and I think they look rather snazzy (plus, I have the whole collection/completion obsession in game that makes me want to get them on my main). You're apparently finding the costs to be exceedingly high (seeing as you have a hard time getting merits) and the value comparatively low (seeing as you've repeatedly called them ugly). For you, the value isn't equal to the cost (though, apparently, the value is still high enough that you still want them, you just don't want to have to pay the same as everyone else).

Now, on a more interesting note, we could, just as easily, argue that the VG merits are supposed to be a representative currency to demonstrate the amount of time we've spent working for Vanguard. Because you don't use an optimized path to acquire merits, you're spending more time for fewer merits increasing the value of each merit in question. I spend substantially less time getting substantially more merits, decreasing their value in my eyes. The fact that you're trying to tell me that the costume pieces are too expensive (a derivative fact of the high value VG merits have to you) while I'm simultaneously telling you that, if anything, the prices are too low (a derivative fact of the low value VG merits have to me) exists specifically because of the difference in how we spend our time acquiring them. You'd probably get a bit more ground with me if, instead of demanding that unlockable costume pieces are stupid and detrimental and it's impossible to play your characters when they need to unlock a costume piece before you'll even consider playing them, you insisted that the two acquisition methods were more in line with each other (such as increasing the VG merit drop rate when fighting Rikti). I have noticed that VG merits from fighting Rikti are low, but, then again, I've never been at great need of VG merits.

At which point you're not allowed to ***** about the costs being too high when you're specifically avoiding the intended method of acquisition. If there is a road that goes straight to your destination, you're not allowed to ***** to the city planner that the longer, more convoluted path you take to work needs to be improved because you refuse to take the direct route.

What I would be losing would be the enjoyment that I derive from knowing that, in putting forth the work, I have obtained something interesting and generally desired. It's for this very same reason that I despise AE farming (and farming/PLing in general). I actually enjoy the fact that I have to put forth some amount of effort to earn something. I'm very goal oriented.

You're completely misrepresenting my position. It's not, "I can get them, who cares about you". It's, "I can get them, so can you". I'm not trying to convince people to abandon you. I'm trying to convince you that the design doesn't exist just to spite you. You're not being excluded. You're just unwilling to get with everyone.

Because the people that enjoy the reward from unlocking a costume piece or any other piece of unlockable fluff (and all of the systems should be viewed equally considering that it's all available to everyone at all times) should be deprived of the ability to earn stuff just because you don't want to have to?

You've been given arguments. You just dismiss them offhand because you're unwilling to admit that they might have merit. One of the biggest reasons to have unlockable costume pieces is simply that you need to give people more and more stuff to earn. If all that people can earn is badges, then the only people that will remain interested are badgers. If all that people can earn is more effectiveness, the only people that will remain interested are power gamers. By having unlockable costume pieces, the devs have a mechanism to keep costumers interested in the the gameplay beyond just the costume creator. It's a carrot to get you to go out and do something you might not otherwise do. Having the carrot apply only to a single character allows the game to not have the carrot refresh and still have the appeal even after you've got it on one character.

I've actually got a number of costumes that use a piece or several of the Vanguard costume (the "subtle tech" look is actually quite nice for many of my character concepts which assume advanced tech would look more like the iPod and less like an angry flashlight), so I can tell you that at least one person uses them. I haven't memorized what every single piece looks like (much less given to look at every costume that every person I PuG with is wearing to such an extent that I figure out what pieces they are wearing) so I can't give you a number.

Of course, you can't just gauge value based off of how many people you see with VG costume pieces. The value is based off of how many people are willing to get the pieces in the first place. After leading raids, I find many people that end up deciding to have a suit that is mostly comprised of VG costume pieces (generally with some minor modifications). It's not one that they wear all the time, but they have it as one of their costume slots either as something to show to their friends or remind themselves of the fun that they had while raiding to obtain it (or wear when beating down on Rikti in the name of the UN).

Actually, I'm not getting defensive concerning such a reduction. I'm getting agitated (and therefore offensive) about the supposition that it is difficult to get the VG costume pieces. It's incredibly easy to get the VG costume pieces. It's only difficult when you're not willing to raid. People that insist that it's impossible to get the VG costume pieces when they're unwilling to do the raids that make it easy (and you get told specifically in the VG tutorial that raids are the best way to get merits) incense me because they're either ignorant or unwilling to alter their playstyle in the least. They're just like other people I've met/talked to that get pissed off because their Tanker that has only placed token importance in his primary powers is too squishy and doesn't deal as much damage as a Scrapper that is built intelligently.

As to increasing the merit rewards for non-raid content, I'd have no problem with that as long as the raids were still the best method of acquiring merits by a significant, noticeable margin. Within the context of the game design, if you want to encourage people to team up, you've got to have progressively increased rewards for events that require more people and more risk. Considering how salvage and recipe drops decrease as you get more people on a team (because salvage and recipe drops don't increase to reward larger team size like experience does), the only way to encourage these events is to provide a greater continual reward (i.e. merits; the badges are one time and thereby incidental).

And hour's investment isn't much, and well worth it. The four days I spent begging people to help me... That was rather more significant.

OK, let's count them. Go to hell count: 1.

You are in no position to tell me what I should and should not do. I cannot play a character that I am not happy with. I play this game for fun, and a character I am not happy with is not fun. My physical ability to get through the tutorial does not grant me the practical ability to suffer through unpleasant gameplay to get through it. I don't play games I don't like and I don't do things in games that I do not like. And without the right sword, this character could not and would not have existed. And, frankly, if you don't care, then you can go to hell.

Go to hell count: 2

You keep asserting that you are capable of reading and comprehending, yet you continually fail to do so on the most obvious count. The very point was that there is no objective, quantifiable way to make costume pieces which are "better," so the result is "prestige" pieces which are, in pretty much every definition of the word, not better in any practical or theoretical way. They are different, granted, but we have plenty of variety, and unlike other locked sets, like the Cimeroran Roman armour, Vanguard pieces don't actually offer anything even thematically different. "Sleek armour" we have three sets of, including one called Tech Sleek.

The result is that random costume pieces are fished out of the pool and arbitrarily deemed "prestige," which achieves absolutely nothing but bestow unto some the feeling that they're somehow better for having them. Because if these costumes were as treasured on their own merit, the fact that they are not available to others would not be even enter into the discussion.

"Prestige" costumes are not better. Either find conclusive evidence to prove this as a general assertion, or drop it. Or go to hell. Your choice.

No, we do not. You forget just how much of this game's costume creator is locked away by one means or another, either by veteran reward, booster pack, special edition or unlocking requirement. Trenchcoats, a good deal of the female tights with skin patterns, kilts, all wings, a bunch of boots, the only decent shorts for men, one of the few decent boot designs, samurai armour, one full set of tech armour, Justice, Enforcer, the only decent jacket for women, probably the best jacket for men, one of the coolest capes, probably half the hoggles details, almost all the gas masks we have, probably 70% of all Half-Helmet options, easily half of all custom weapon options, and that's just without me actually thinking about it too hard. I logged into the game on a brand new account once, and the costume creator was DEPRESSING.

As well, I've been hearing the same claptrap about "Oh, it's only this one little thing!" for five years. But every little thing adds up. First it was capes and auras, then the DVD capes, then that damn Witch Hat, then more and more and more stuff. I don't even remember where everything come from, but a big, sizeable chunk of the costume creator is off limits for one reason or another. Hell, I made myself a character whose uniform we decided to use for a SG uniform. Turns out half of it was plain unavailable for a lot of people, because I'd unwittingly used Justice pieces and a trench coat. Yeah, that 1% isn't as singular as you see it as.

Go to hell count: 3

Go to hell. That... That's pretty much what I have to say here. Yanking random pieces and labelling them as "prestige" is the height of stupidity and, in fact, a massive cheat, as well. While we're at it, why not make hair be a prestige item? Just one more run-of-the-mill hairstyle that's nothing special other than "different" and call that "prestige?" It accomplishes just as much of a big nothing, but to make me roll my eyes and make you run afoul of the language filter.

Once again, go to hell. Oh, wait...

Go to hell count: 4

I'm not going to debate the obvious with you.

You may want to learn to read, then, if that's all you got out of it. You "insult my intelligence" not by calling my intelligence an insulting name, but by treating me like some petulant child who knows nothing and needs to be taught a lesson and shut up. You've shown clear disregard for opinion and a clear disrespect for pretty much all, so I no longer feel the need to state my opinions as opinions, since all that does is paint a big target over them for you to trot over. You're not going to bully me into submission just because you're taking a stern tone. So, yeah, count it - you can go to hell. At least I have nothing against admitting to it when I lay down the insults.

Go to hell count: 5

Straw man or critical reading comprehension failure? You decide! I'd really love for you to quote me where I said any of that stuff, especially where I aid everyone "needs" to have every costume piece available at creation. I might want that, but I've long since given up on making that argument in the face of thick heads. What I DID make as an argument, several times, in fact, and what you have conveniently overlooked every single time, is the fact that I'm not against unlocking things. I do, however, want them to be unlocked on a global basis. If they are, then I don't care how hard they are to get or how long they take to unlock. In fact, I'm going to quote myself on this, just to see if you'll read it this time around.

Address it or drop it, but if you're going to keep pretending I never posted it, feel free to go to hell. Which reminds me...

Go to hell count: 6

I'm skipping this, since it's difficult to insult you when you take a break from mouthing off and make a decent, agreeable point, even if these suggestions weren't really ever my own. Let me just correct you - I find the Vanguard pieces to have a pretty high value, just nowhere near enough to merit their cost. Specifically, their opportunity cost. Since I don't feel that's either fair to the costume pieces, or actually justified in comparison to practically anything else unlockable (I'd need a heck of a lot more than 100 Chief Soldiers for that set), that's the basic argument I'm making. Vanguard pieces are out of scale with everything else in the game, and there is no reason for them to be. There's no reason a pair of pants should cost as much as a Vanguard Heavy.

Ah, that's better. It's so much easier to tell you to go to hell when you simultaneously completely misread me AND act like a jerk. See, that didn't last too long.

Go to hell count: 7

Oh, I have an idea. How about something that, the obvious road to get it would be to get kicked in the nuts ten times? By golly! It exists, so I must definitely be a big baby for not wanting to take it, right? Either that, or I actually want to have babies at some point, but that's besides the point. And the point is that the primary method of acquisition sucks. Plain and simple. OK, not entirely, it's decent if you enjoy raids. But if you don't enjoy raids, it sucks. And unless you want to drive an argument that everyone should like raids or go to hell (this one doesn't count), which I doubt even you are going to want to commit to, it just doesn't work.

Suppose they were locked behind a badge that required 1000 hours spent in the war zone as an alternative. This takes ZERO effort, other than your ability to pay your Internet bill. Would people not committing to that be derided and berated by you as I am? Because I am not going out of my way to avoid raids. Yes, I've turned down a raid (once) that occurred just as I was leaving with work in the morning, by and by, I don't avoid raids. I just don't have the opportunity to get involved in them. So why not start my own? Same reason I don't lead classes for free. It's work, and I expect to be paid for it with real money, and real money Vanguard pieces are not.

Am I to translate that to mean that you will be losing the enjoyment of knowing other people don't have what you do? Because, last I checked, I'm free to put in as much work as I want into something despite how much it actually costs, but I'm thinking that doesn't work for you unless those who DIDN'T put forth the work DON'T have it. Gee, remember when games used to be fun? Man, those times rocked.

I'm also unwilling to get punched in the face in return for $10, but can you really blame me? This is a game I'm already paying for, and while I'm not going to tout my subscription and demand everything be handed to me, I'm far and away not going to put in MORE work to earn trivial rewards. The design isn't there to spite me, but the design is simply not good. All it does is deny the pieces to people who could potentially use them while giving the people who CAN earn them now nothing they wouldn't get if they were easier to earn. Well, nothing other than the satisfaction of others not having them, but I don't really accept that as a reason.

I want to add one more to the counter, but I'm just scratching my head here. The reward for unlocking a costume piece is having a costume piece unlocked. If the costume piece is easier to unlock or, in fact, already unlocked, that reward persists. If the achievement is so important, the achievement is still there. You can still do the things you needed before and that would be an achievement. If you're really hardcore about it, you can even keep yourself from using the costumes until you "unlock" them.

Just like everything else in this game - you can take on high challenges and feel satisfaction in being strong, while I can just drop my difficulty and pretend I'm strong anyway, and neither hurts the other. Just because the game is hard for you doesn't mean it has to be hard for me. So why do my costumes have to be hard to unlock so that they may be hard for you? That I may suffer for your satisfaction? Specifically since they're not exactly hard for you by admission?

The only "satisfaction" I feel from unlocking new stuff in this game is usually "What? I did all that work for THAT? I was ripped off!" The rest of the time, it's more along the lines of "I put all of this work forth to gain this, it's pretty neat. Now what? This? It takes HOW much work?" And then I log out to watch a movie, then forget to log in for a week, then play a completely different character. Save for probably some of the more expensive Inventions sets, very little in this game is actually worth the work involved in unlocking it, but a lot of things are at least locked behind a token effort. I don't use capes, but I always do the cape mission in case I change my mind, and because it's not half bad, even better now. I don't need auras almost at all, but I always do the mission, because it's short, simple and actually not bad. I most decidedly DON'T do the ITF every time, in part because I don't always have the opportunity to, in part because I'm tired of getting yelled at by people doing unannounced speed runs.

Most things are tolerable. A full set of Vanguard gear is not.

I don't dismiss them, I disagree with them. Specifically, I disagree that the "carrot on a stick" approach actually works for people interested in making costumes, both from empirical evidence of talking with people, and as a principle thing. People who are more interested in making costumes than anything else most often treat the game as a vessel for these costumes, and obstacles put in their path are not pleasant. This is inherent in the nature of costume design as a vocation, which is more about the act of creating said costume, said character, said concept, than specifically playing through the game for hours and hours and hours. For such people, making costumes is the actual gameplay, and unless you can attach benefits to that, "carrot on a stick" doesn't work.

This is kind of like the old PvP argument, where people claim they play for PvP, so why should they have to play through the PvE game to gain levels. The state of PvP in this game notwithstanding, I agree. Benefits to one aspect of the game need to be put behind actions related to that aspect. You get more powerful by being powerful, you earn more badges by hunting badges, you get more exploration by exploring. Now, you CAN put some immensely powerful permanent buff behind, say, massive exploration of the entire game, but all that's going to do is get the people who don't care about power to shrug and the people who care about power to vent because they're put through an activity they have no interest in.

I have no interest in end-game raiding and massive teaming. Why are costumes - the thing I AM interested in - locked behind that? It won't get me to engage in them. It'll just piss me off. Value vs. cost and all that.

Hmm... I haven't insulted you in a while. This is disconcerting...

Oh, wait. False alarm. Horror of horrors. Someone is wrong on the Internet and it's your duty to shut them up. Yeah, go to hell. All you're doing is strutting around like a bully, belittling people and hiding behind a false moral high ground to justify it. I, at least, don't pretend to be so morally superior about this, because you've shown me beyond the need for proof that you're perfectly capable and very willing to step on anyone you disagree with. For this, I don't feel the need to treat you with the respect you've refused to show since the start.

Go to hell count: 8

So, in essence, the costumes are available via an activity that you enjoy and are easily capable of taking part in, so the people with other preferences or abilities can just go to hell? Hmm... So, I guess when you say "I can get it, so can you," you mean that quite literally. You expect that, just because it works for you, it has to work for other people? Yeah, to hell with other people's likes, preferences, sensitivities and obligations. If you can do it, certainly ALL of us can do it.

Hey, guess what? I can speak Bulgarian. And if I can, then so can you! And if you you're unwilling or incapable of, then that means you're either stupid or lazy, or possibly both. Kind of like those people complaining that they can't spend hours in-game because they have demanding jobs, or the people whose geographic location puts them far outside any prime-time windows. Or the people who play the EU version. To hell with those guys! They're just big babies! Anything I can do, you BETTER be able to do better, or you're in deep trouble, Mr!

This is absurd. I ended up with, what, 8 instances of telling you to go to hell, and that's with biting my tongue half the time. I sincerely hope there's enough in there for me to get modsmacked, because this whole thread is in need of moderator attention. I'm not quite yet ready to report my own post, but feel free to report it for me. Let's see what happens. It's been a while since I've been mod-smacked, anyway. I'm not taking it back, though. I have no qualms being the bad guy if that's what it takes to respond in kind, and while I don't exactly take pride in it, I find no shame in it, either.

*edit*
In fact, you know what? This is pointless. It's fun, but it's time-consuming and, again, pointless. See if you can have me moderated if you want. I'm not interested in this discussion any more. I'd backspace over my post, if it didn't take me an hour to write up.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I tend to agree--after all I crossed the line a little talking to you in the first place, and that was probably one of the more relaxed parts of the thread. This topic is bringing out the worst in people on both sides. While I realize I'm pretty passionate about CoH, some of the things said in this thread are deliberately inflammatory. Both sides have resorted to name-calling, insults, and character assasination.

I agree completely. It's been incredibly fun having this debate with you (I actually kept this entire thing up mainly because it's nice to have someone who can keep up impassioned debate of excellent quality for such a long time), and, honestly, I wouldn't really care all that much if something were done about it (unless they really did downwardly alter the prices to levels the OP was desiring). I'd take it in stride and move on as I am want to do (unless someone decides to start a conversation on the matter that is...).

I wouldn't dare moderate you. I don't take any umbrage at what you've said to me. In fact, I actually enjoyed your "Go to hell count", and I don't think you said anything that is outright untrue. It's true, I'm an ***-hole. I don't take any exception when people act as if I am one. Besides, why would I moderate a post that I so thoroughly enjoyed reading (especially during those times in which it seemed like you were perplexed because we might almost have been agreeing...)?

Force, I think you are unto something good...

I would agree, doing the Join the Vanguard Mission, should give you a basic Vanguard set so you can look the part. Then completion of the thread that follows that mission, should result in the entire suit as a reward of your proving yourself a loyal and effective Vanguard member.

The question once I unlocked this costume pieces for one alt, should it be account wide unlocked? Personally I would like to say yes, from one who build theme based characters, the opportunity to appropiately costume build the look from the get go would make sense. There is historical precedence for this; if you make an epic soldier of widow, you do get the appropriate pieces from the get go,so you can look the part.

Hugs

Stomry