Okay, i have lvled a couple FF defenders. I honestly love them, I love getting my teammates near softcapped. I know that the ff numbers are different, but i would say it would be okay to be a ff troller. Defense is defense in my opinion. any teammate would just be happy your on their team (unless you push all of their enemies away from them lol so be careful and use your non shield powers wisely.
Mind is not a strong damager iirc, but confusing is really fun. I am almost positive that ff has a +end drain resistance in it so sappers arent as effective, but i see your point with engineers. Gatta love getting their buffage.
I say play what you would like. I like being able to bubble then damage, and not have people ticked off at me for not holding down the mobs while im buffing them (that is one of the main reasons i like ff defending better). If you like to control, control. If you wanna give your teammates defense do it! Wanna do both, definately!
" I don't let me kids play on the Freedom Server" -Oya
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You'll be missing the best reason to combine FF with a troller. The ability to use your powerful single target buffs on your own pets. Mind has no pets.|
Originally Posted by Griff Mender
Hey gang! So I'm usually pretty defender obsessed, but after finishing my latest defender leveling project, I've come to the set I've been putting off since I got this game. Forcefields. Now, I love having bubblers with me on things like mothership raids and whatnot with the mez protection and the great defense. But with FF defenders seeming incredibly boring to play, I'm concerned that I'll just drop it after 30 levels or so. Now aside from defenders I have a 50 Ill/Rad that I just love to death (thanks for the build again Local_man) especially the power Deceive. It takes all my least favorite enemies like Malta sappers and turns them into my favorite. Sky raider engineers and whatnot I now actually look forward to. Anyway. Forcefields. So I wanted to do forcefields and still actually have fun. My question is. If I go ahead and make a Mind/FF (using mind to toy with my enemies the same way my Ill/rad does but on a larger scale and frankly id rather try a diff primary on a new toon) will it be able to defensively buff well enough to be comparable to a FF defender? I mean, I understand that technically speaking the Defender bubble will be stronger than the controller bubble especially with power boost. But will it be that noticable? Will people go and say "Man we shoulda grabbed a Defender Bubbler instead of this Troller"? Or will I be able to fill the defensive needs of the team while still totally messing with my enemies Troller-style? I appreciate any input you kind folks have on it. thanks.
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Try a Fire/FF. You get 3 pets to buff, Dispersion Bubble + Smoke provides you with decent defenses so that you can stay in melee range, and Dispersion also bounces most mezzes so that Hot Feet stays toggled on.
Proc out Brawl, pick up the pool attack from your travel power, collect and keep refreshed the temp attacks from Croatoa and go to town.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Very true did not think about the fact that mind does not even have a pet. Good catch haha and i agree with the smoke comment. Any extra defense is a great asset to the team.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
You'll be missing the best reason to combine FF with a troller. The ability to use your powerful single target buffs on your own pets. Mind has no pets.
Try a Fire/FF. You get 3 pets to buff, Dispersion Bubble + Smoke provides you with decent defenses so that you can stay in melee range, and Dispersion also bounces most mezzes so that Hot Feet stays toggled on. Proc out Brawl, pick up the pool attack from your travel power, collect and keep refreshed the temp attacks from Croatoa and go to town. |
" I don't let me kids play on the Freedom Server" -Oya
The differences between /FF and FF/ are pretty substantial.
A FF Defender can almost be thought of as a Tanker who, instead of drawing aggro to himself, spreads it among the team. Damage hovers in the low-ish range, but team survivability is extremely high. When leading radio missions, recruiting a Force Field Defender is, for me, a total jackpot because it means I can increase the mission difficulty by at least +1. However, you should note that having TWO Force Field Defenders on a team is rarely optimal.
In terms of play style, most FF Defenders play like Blasters-lite who tag along just behind the rest of the team, careful to avoid aggro (because they are the keystone holding things together). When survivability is a sure bet, this Defender can also unleash nukes. While Force Fields don't directly increase team damage, what they do do is increase the confidence of Blasters (in particular) to let loose completely. With a competent team this can be game-changing. With an incompetent one it frequently means the difference between success and a wipe.
A /FF Controller plays more aggressively. The shields, on their own, are not strong enough to provide the near-invulnerability the Defender brings. What they do is provide a buffer for situations where controls fail to halt an enemy. Also, having two Force Field Controllers on the same team adds up to around the same protection that a single FF Defender would bring. Avoiding aggro is also usually not as much of a concern for the Controller as it is for the Defender, as you are not the keystone to team defense, and what aggro you do pull can somewhat be managed with mezzes.
Both sets require you to take on the mindset that you will constantly be refreshing bubbles. It is far more critical with the Defender. Some people use timers; I just periodically re-cast as we are running to the next fight and towards the end of a fight when the other team members are cleaning up the last remaining enemies.
As for Mind/FF specifically, I think it can be an extremely powerful combo, solo or on a team (but especially on a team). Mezz protection is a coveted attribute. Once it gets its 4 core AoE mezzes (Mass Hypnosis, Total Dom, Terrify, Mass Confusion) Mind is such a scary-ily masterful Controller that it puts many other sets to shame. Mind also has an option to go low-key, with three non-aggro drawing powers that allow you to get the drop on enemies.
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I agree that Fire/FF is an effective combo, but it is a totally different kind of character than a Mind/FF.| Try a Fire/FF. You get 3 pets to buff, Dispersion Bubble + Smoke provides you with decent defenses so that you can stay in melee range, and Dispersion also bounces most mezzes that Hot Feet stays toggled on. |
Fire/FF comes close to playing like a blended Corruptor/Mastermind. You have a sea of pets to take care of, good soloability, decent damage, and buffs for the team. However you give up substantial control for this option.
Mind/FF adds less damage but more safety. It has no pets to buff but Mind doesn't need them; in fact they'd mostly just get in the way of stealth tactics. Mind's single target Confuse can be trained up to lasting over a full minute on a same-level enemy, and you can stack it on bosses before the fight even starts. Mind Control is, IMO, the safest type of Controller, especially after getting Mass Confusion at level 32.
Definitely not knocking Fire/FF, but it's a completely different kind of character than Mind/FF.
BTW, wanted to add that if you do decide to go with Mind/, you could try out the new-ish Cold Domination set. It doesn't have the AoE anti-mezz protection, but it does have shields, some limited personal protection, really good boss-busting powers, a ton of -resistance, and some endurance recovery abilities. If you combine it with Super Speed you can even go invisible and beat Illusion at the mezz-from-the-shadows game.
I have actually used my Mind/Cold to win Task Force rescue missions by super speeding to the end, confusing the mob so that they kill each other, then walking back to the entrance with the hostage in tow, sleeping or confusing each group as we stroll past. The enemy never even has to know you're there.
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Ok that is just plain hilarious. Also the reason i wanted to go with Mind. One of my favourite things to do with my Ill/rad is to invis to an objective and, without drawing aggro, cause the badguys to beat the snot out of each other. Often enough if there is another Ill or Mind on the team, we will find a spawn with two mobs of the same type (minion, LT, etc) and take bets on which one will win if we deceive/confuse them at the same time. Unbelievable fun. But the idea of being able to do Mass versions of it just makes me giggle. Especially now that they have new difficulty slider i can pretty much make sure that its a x8 minion slugfest where i can just sit back and eat popcorn. I know that doesnt sound fun to some people, but wow. I'm giggling just thinking about it. Primarily I wanted FF for the mezz protection and defensive buffs via dispersion bubble since Mothership raids are one of my fav things in this game. But I wanted to balance between enjoying the heck out of confusing/mezzing enemies and being able to protect everyone on the hull of the mothership. I've got several toons for optimized play (as far as what my friends and I need) such as a 50 emp, 50 kin defender, 50 Ill/rad. This one is all for the fun stuff that I enjoy most. Mothership and making things smack themselves. But if going Mind/FF will mean that my time on the mothership wont be good enough then maybe i should go for FF/arch with better protection and a crashless nuke.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
BTW, wanted to add that if you do decide to go with Mind/, you could try out the new-ish Cold Domination set. It doesn't have the AoE anti-mezz protection, but it does have shields, some limited personal protection, really good boss-busting powers, a ton of -resistance, and some endurance recovery abilities. If you combine it with Super Speed you can even go invisible and beat Illusion at the mezz-from-the-shadows game.
I have actually used my Mind/Cold to win Task Force rescue missions by super speeding to the end, confusing the mob so that they kill each other, then walking back to the entrance with the hostage in tow, sleeping or confusing each group as we stroll past. The enemy never even has to know you're there. |
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For mothership raids specifically, I would narrowly put Force Field Controllers ahead of Defenders. | But if going Mind/FF will mean that my time on the mothership wont be good enough then maybe i should go for FF/arch with better protection and a crashless nuke. |
The reason is that, in my experience, the main need for Dispersion Bubble is the AoE anti-mezz, not the Defense, which is likely to be abundant. Mind Control would let you provide that while retaining the ability to snipe controls at the enemy without drawing aggro. The last thing you want on one of those raids is the anti-mezzer to die. I would definitely not encourage you to try nuking an enemy when you are the one keeping the rest of the group alive.
A Robots/Force Field or Robots/Traps Mastermind is a third option. You could put the pets on Defensive and enjoy massive protection while your shield benefits your team.
Traps Defenders also have AoE anti-mezz protection you may want to explore. It's a pet, but recharges quickly. Unfortunately we can't do a Mind/Traps Controller just yet, but here's hoping.
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You may wish to try Plant/FF then. You get your AoE confuse much much sooner, it can be perma'd easily, and even double stacked with some $$$ layout for IOs. You also still have the ability to use your team buffs while solo on Fly Trap.|
Originally Posted by Griff Mender
Ok that is just plain hilarious. Also the reason i wanted to go with Mind. One of my favourite things to do with my Ill/rad is to invis to an objective and, without drawing aggro, cause the badguys to beat the snot out of each other. Often enough if there is another Ill or Mind on the team, we will find a spawn with two mobs of the same type (minion, LT, etc) and take bets on which one will win if we deceive/confuse them at the same time. Unbelievable fun. But the idea of being able to do Mass versions of it just makes me giggle. Especially now that they have new difficulty slider i can pretty much make sure that its a x8 minion slugfest where i can just sit back and eat popcorn. I know that doesnt sound fun to some people, but wow. I'm giggling just thinking about it. Primarily I wanted FF for the mezz protection and defensive buffs via dispersion bubble since Mothership raids are one of my fav things in this game. But I wanted to balance between enjoying the heck out of confusing/mezzing enemies and being able to protect everyone on the hull of the mothership. I've got several toons for optimized play (as far as what my friends and I need) such as a 50 emp, 50 kin defender, 50 Ill/rad. This one is all for the fun stuff that I enjoy most. Mothership and making things smack themselves. But if going Mind/FF will mean that my time on the mothership wont be good enough then maybe i should go for FF/arch with better protection and a crashless nuke.
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Just as another note. If you NEED the control from Mind while playing /FF you're doing something very very wrong.
Edit - If your primary goal for this FF toon is for Ship Raids you may wish to go with an FF/Dark defender. Stacking AoE -acc on the mobs gives you the equivalent of softcapped defenses with out any IO sets and it gives your teammates a buffer when the Rikti Magus use Stalagmites (the Rikti Magus version is around a 20% defense debuff. Throughly nasty if you don't have any DDR or a large buffer). Softcapping your own Ranged and AoE Defense with IOs gives you the same level of defense as the rest of your team.
As long as the rest of the raiders stay in your Dispersion bubble you can literally protect the entire raid. That's how I use mine on Ship Raids. There have been times that I am the only bubbler on Ship Raids and as long as everyone stays near there are no deaths except when folks don't call out Bombs.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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Thats a real good idea. Yeah I really love the mothership raids. Something about taking the fight to the Rikti I just dig. The other parts that really frustrate me is when my whole team gets mezzed right next to a newly planted bomb and we cant escape. Thats part of the reason I wanted to go FF. So folks, I'm changing my objectives here (starting to see why I have altitis?) I would like to see a FF build (troller or defender) that would really shine in a mothership raid. Reasonably priced (hopefully less than 300 million would be great cuz wow im broke after my ill/rad) That would just be able to hold it down in the bowl when the Maguses just start tearing into folks.
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Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
You may wish to try Plant/FF then. You get your AoE confuse much much sooner, it can be perma'd easily, and even double stacked with some $$$ layout for IOs. You also still have the ability to use your team buffs while solo on Fly Trap.
Just as another note. If you NEED the control from Mind while playing /FF you're doing something very very wrong. Edit - If your primary goal for this FF toon is for Ship Raids you may wish to go with an FF/Dark defender. Stacking AoE -acc on the mobs gives you the equivalent of softcapped defenses with out any IO sets and it gives your teammates a buffer when the Rikti Magus use Stalagmites (the Rikti Magus version is around a 20% defense debuff. Throughly nasty if you don't have any DDR or a large buffer). Softcapping your own Ranged and AoE Defense with IOs gives you the same level of defense as the rest of your team. As long as the rest of the raiders stay in your Dispersion bubble you can literally protect the entire raid. That's how I use mine on Ship Raids. There have been times that I am the only bubbler on Ship Raids and as long as everyone stays near there are no deaths except when folks don't call out Bombs. |
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I have to question this, because I am one of those kinds of people. | If you NEED the control from Mind while playing /FF you're doing something very very wrong. |
For now, I'm speaking independently of raids.Looking at the numbers in /FF for Controllers, assuming the powers in play are Dispersion, Deflection, and Manuevers and all 3 are triple loaded for Defense I get 17.8 + 11.9 + 4.16 = 33.86 Defense. Significant, but still about 11 points from the cap. A team with those numbers would have a 17%-ish chance to get hit per attack by a low level enemy. If we're talking about a lvl 50 Blaster, and assume there are two bosses around able to do 610 damage each in one shot, the Blaster has an 8.5% chance of dying instantly upon encountering them. This is far better than the base 25% chance of instant death, but still significant enough to warrant additional support. Controls help here by reducing the number of enemies that can fire, causing fewer die rolls and less chance of death.
[BTW, a Force Field Defender with the same numbers reduces the number of attacks down to 5% (23.8 + 5.55 + 15.8 = 45.15), for a three fold increase in protection. The Blaster in this situation dies in 2.5% of cases.]
The idea of combining FF/Dark on a Defender is genius, though, for a character who will only be doing raids. That character would also be a great soloist. It's super overkill for most PUGs, since the Defender can already cap defense off the bat.
And Plant Control is great. Like Fire it's significantly different than Mind Control. I wouldn't pass up Mind Control just because you feel not having a pet is wasteful though. If you did that it means Mind would pair with only 4 other sets (Storm, Radiation, Kinetics, Trick Arrow) on account of "wasting" buffs.
Sorry for so many multiple replies. Something just occured to me.
If you want to capitalize on /Dark Blast stacking, skip Force Field in favor of Traps. The big bubble in traps actually provides better Defense than Dispersion Bubble does (13.3% base vs 10.0% base), and the -ToHit in the blasts isn't wasted if you decide to do radio missions. I'm not saying Traps > Force Field in all situations, but in this very specific one it probably would be.
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The previously mentioned Fire/FF can provide 45.55% to the team and imps by using 3 level 50 defense IOs in Deflection, Manuvers, and Grant Invis, 3 level 50 Acc debuff in Smoke, and 3 Enzymes in Dispersion.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I have to question this, because I am one of those kinds of people.
For now, I'm speaking independently of raids.Looking at the numbers in /FF for Controllers, assuming the powers in play are Dispersion, Deflection, and Manuevers and all 3 are triple loaded for Defense I get 17.8 + 11.9 + 4.16 = 33.86 Defense. Significant, but still about 11 points from the cap. A team with those numbers would have a 17%-ish chance to get hit per attack by a low level enemy. If we're talking about a lvl 50 Blaster, and assume there are two bosses around able to do 610 damage each in one shot, the Blaster has an 8.5% chance of dying instantly upon encountering them. This is far better than the base 25% chance of instant death, but still significant enough to warrant additional support. Controls help here by reducing the number of enemies that can fire, causing fewer die rolls and less chance of death. [BTW, a Force Field Defender with the same numbers reduces the number of attacks down to 5% (23.8 + 5.55 + 15.8 = 45.15), for a three fold increase in protection. The Blaster in this situation dies in 2.5% of cases.] The idea of combining FF/Dark on a Defender is genius, though, for a character who will only be doing raids. That character would also be a great soloist. It's super overkill for most PUGs, since the Defender can already cap defense off the bat. And Plant Control is great. Like Fire it's significantly different than Mind Control. I wouldn't pass up Mind Control just because you feel not having a pet is wasteful though. If you did that it means Mind would pair with only 4 other sets (Storm, Radiation, Kinetics, Trick Arrow) on account of "wasting" buffs. |
If the members of the team have as little as 3% defense from say a Steadfast res/def, a light fairy pet (who will also be soft capped), even slotted up combat jumping, or from set bonuses from some el cheapos, you would be able to dispense with Grant Invis. Not at all difficult to find even in some sparkly new players.
Repulsion bomb can completely mitigate the Alpha attack. Force bolt can effectively mitgate the damage from a single tough target as can Detention Field. That's without even applying a single control from the primary.
I'm well aware of the numbers simply from having several FF/ defenders and /FF controllers and using them for the purposes described.
I mention my FF/Dark/Dark because it's excellent in high defense debuff situations like ITFs and Ship raids and because it exemplars well. A level 17 FF/Dark can provide the equivalent of 45.78% defense to all positions for the team from simply slotting Dispersion, Deflection, and Insulation with 3 level 20 defense IOs and slotting T_T with 2 level 20 rech IOs so that it's cast +rech time are less than the duration on the unenhanced acc debuff.
Quite frankly, I do feel that having potent powers that I can't use solo because they are ally buffs or taking powers that I won't use simply for set mules is wasteful and I typically try to avoid it on all my builds save those that will only team 100% of the time.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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I don't doubt you, but I was responding to the statement that I quoted ("If you NEED the control from Mind while playing /FF you're doing something very very wrong.") Your response is specific to a Fire Controller, as a Mind Controller can't take Smoke. I'm not a very good reader, so I may have missed something. But I assume the reason we've gone in this direction is related to your original statement that Fire/FF is better than Mind/FF on account of Mind not having a pet. |
The previously mentioned Fire/FF can provide 45.55% to the team and imps by using 3 level 50 defense IOs in Deflection, Manuvers, and Grant Invis, 3 level 50 Acc debuff in Smoke, and 3 Enzymes in Dispersion. If the members of the team have as little as 3% defense from say a Steadfast res/def, a light fairy pet (who will also be soft capped), even slotted up combat jumping, or from set bonuses from some el cheapos, you would be able to dispense with Grant Invis. Not at all difficult to find even in some sparkly new players. Repulsion bomb can completely mitigate the Alpha attack. Force bolt can effectively mitgate the damage from a single tough target as can Detention Field. That's without even applying a single control from the primary. I'm well aware of the numbers simply from having several FF/ defenders and /FF controllers and using them for the purposes described. |
I have to say I don't understand your position there. The reason is that you stated that you also play a Force Field Defender. Why is it an issue that the Mind Controller has no pet and not the Defender? Shouldn't it be less of an issue, since the shields in /FF actually provide less value than they would to a Defender?
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Ok to give examples. My FF/Dark Defender has set bonuses that provide soft capped defenses to Ranged and AoE. Hover keeps me out of melee range and the debuffs in the blasts are gravy and are good to use in situations where debuffs are plentiful. I can open each spawn with Repulsion Bomb which eliminates or spreads out the Alpha into easier to mitigate chunks. Force bolt lets me keep 1 target completely out of the action. Dentention field does the same to another target.|
Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I don't doubt you, but I was responding to the statement that I quoted ("If you NEED the control from Mind while playing /FF you're doing something very very wrong.") Your response is specific to a Fire Controller, as a Mind Controller can't take Smoke. I'm not a very good reader, so I may have missed something. But I assume the reason we've gone in this direction is related to your original statement that Fire/FF is better than Mind/FF on account of Mind not having a pet.
I have to say I don't understand your position there. The reason is that you stated that you also play a Force Field Defender. Why is it an issue that the Mind Controller has no pet and not the Defender? Shouldn't it be less of an issue, since the shields in /FF actually provide less value than they would to a Defender? |
I don't remember how long ago the last time my FF/Dark/Dark got killed was (several months at least and I play that toon at least once a week). I do remember what it took to do it. 3 simultaneous stalagmite attacks from 3 rikti magus on a ship raid. I don't need any mitigation from my secondary with that toon and neither does my team. My primary and set bonuses are all that are needed to do that.
I can do the same thing with any /FF controller. Fire/FF can hit the soft cap for the team as I descibed above. Set bonuses and those powers can provide soft capped defenses for myself. The difference between the soft cap for Fire and soft cap for any other controller is only the value in smoke ie:7.92% defense. If you can't make up 7.92% defense with the controls in any primary (even Grav), and MUST HAVE the level of control provided by mind, then you're doing something horribly horriby wrong and should re-examine either your build or playstyle.
Forcefields is a strong ally buff set. Using it ONLY for the mez protection and personal defense provided by dispersion is very very wasteful. You'd be better off with a different secondary. When solo the best thing about a /FF controller is the ability to use those powerful ally buffs on your pets, something that my FF/Dark/Dark defender doesn't get to do and still survives better than many other toons.
Additionally slotting the Edict of the Master +defense Aura in your pet makes up all but 2.92% of the defense difference between Fire and any other controller set with a pet.
The idea that the extra level of control provided by mind is required to make up that small a short fall in mitigation from defender to controller values or from other primaries compared to mind is disingenuous at best and misleadingly false at worst.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Since you don't appear to be actually responding to me so much as quoting my posts while making counter claims to statements I didn't actually make, I'm going to discontinue posting. I will leave it at this: you say Mind/FF sucks and is wasteful to play. I say you are wrong. Have a nice day. And please consider word choice before you call someone's argument "disingenuous" because it implies that they are deliberately lying.
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I strongly disagree with this. I have a fire/ff at 50 and a plant/ff currently working up through the early 40's. I've found buffing the imps to largely be a waste of time. If they aggro something that I haven't controlled or I'm unable to throw controls at quickly they're usually taking a dirt nap. The 20-something% defense from shields and maneuvers makes them a little sturdier, but not much. And with the plant/ff, I skipped the shields entirely because the flytrap isn't that great of a pet with or without defenses. |
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
Forcefields is a strong ally buff set. Using it ONLY for the mez protection and personal defense provided by dispersion is very very wasteful. You'd be better off with a different secondary. When solo the best thing about a /FF controller is the ability to use those powerful ally buffs on your pets, something that my FF/Dark/Dark defender doesn't get to do and still survives better than many other toons. |
Using forcefields for a solo build allows me three things: ease hitting the soft cap for defense, mez protection, and flexible power choice due to few must have powers. All of these things, I would say, are much better than having shields to throw on your pet.
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I didn't say mind/FF sucks. I did demonstrate how the combination doesn't play to FF's strengths as well as some of the other combinations. It isn't really a stronger combination (as you set out to demonstrate) than any of the other primaries and provides about the same amount of mitigation.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
Since you don't appear to be actually responding to me so much as quoting my posts while making counter claims to statements I didn't actually make, I'm going to discontinue posting. I will leave it at this: you say Mind/FF sucks and is wasteful to play. I say you are wrong. Have a nice day. And please consider word choice before you call someone's argument "disingenuous" because it implies that they are deliberately lying.
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-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
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I'd have to strongly disagree with your strong disagreement.|
Originally Posted by ketch
I strongly disagree with this. I have a fire/ff at 50 and a plant/ff currently working up through the early 40's. I've found buffing the imps to largely be a waste of time. If they aggro something that I haven't controlled or I'm unable to throw controls at quickly they're usually taking a dirt nap. The 20-something% defense from shields and maneuvers makes them a little sturdier, but not much. And with the plant/ff, I skipped the shields entirely because the flytrap isn't that great of a pet with or without defenses.
Using forcefields for a solo build allows me three things: ease hitting the soft cap for defense, mez protection, and flexible power choice due to few must have powers. All of these things, I would say, are much better than having shields to throw on your pet. |
I'd also venture to say that is a play style problem, since I don't have this issue. Imps have controller levels of hit points. All you have to do is make sure that there aren't any spread out spawns in an area before aggroing and if there are gather them together before using Fire Cages. Provoke from the presence pool is an excellent way to do this.
I'm also wondering if you are running Tactics. The perception increase in tactics will make imps run around like dervishes if you haven't taken the time to gather up spread out spawns.
I occasionally have a single Imp run out of dispersion if I'm not paying attention but usually can reposition myself to cover all three.
-Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. - Albert Einstein.
-I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use. - Galileo Galilei
-When injustice becomes law, resistance becomes duty. - Thomas Jefferson
Didn't read all the posts . . . I have a level 35 Mind/FF, which I have solo'ed about 85% of the time. My reasoning for the combo is this: Mind Control is such a strong primary that it really doesn't need much from the secondary. Force Field, as a secondary, provides a few very useful things -- a great "panic button" power available from level 1, partial mez protection and some self-defense from Dispersion Bubble, and two simple powers that would make me welcome on any team. Since so many of the FF powers are not "manditory," it left me plenty of room in the build to take all the Mind powers and a few other goodies, or I could play around with the other FF powers.
Mind has 5 AoE controls, (well, really 6 if you include Telekinesis) so it can handle groups easily. It provides decent single-target damage in the attack chain of Dom-Mez-Lev. It allows me to take foes out of the fight with Confuse until I have time to wipe them out with my attack chain. The AoE damage is weak, with only Terrify and no pet. While Mind solo'ed very well in low levels, better than most controllers, its damage seems to level out in higher levels just when other controllers are picking up more damage from their pets.
Solo, the mez protection is wonderful -- I need to keep a few Break Frees handy for sleeps, but don't have to worry about most other mez issues. On teams, I can bubble the team, and then focus on using my controls in just the right way.
I have enjoyed the character, and plan to continue to level him up as I have time. I tend to focus more on "control" than buffing/debuffing, so I just don't think of the secondary first. I think of "what secondary will make the Mind primary better or more interesting." I don't think of an FF/* Defenders being comparable to a */FF controller. The defense numbers don't matter nearly as much when most or all of the foes are controlled.
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Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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The imps have a notorious reputation as aggro monkeys so I doubt that it's just my playstyle affecting it. Also, as you noted, the trouble with their aggro management is complicated by the common and useful Tactics. When I spot a rough grouping I much prefer to despawn the imps, gather the mobs, lock them down, and resummon. Maybe it's not as efficient, but to me it's easier.|
Originally Posted by Miladys_Knight
I'd have to strongly disagree with your strong disagreement.
I'd also venture to say that is a play style problem, since I don't have this issue. Imps have controller levels of hit points. All you have to do is make sure that there aren't any spread out spawns in an area before aggroing and if there are gather them together before using Fire Cages. Provoke from the presence pool is an excellent way to do this. I'm also wondering if you are running Tactics. The perception increase in tactics will make imps run around like dervishes if you haven't taken the time to gather up spread out spawns. I occasionally have a single Imp run out of dispersion if I'm not paying attention but usually can reposition myself to cover all three. |
Additionally, outside of the imps, how much do controller pets benefit from forcefields? Stoney and Singularity are both very survivable already. Phantasm seems to avoid most aggro problems with its decoy. The one pet I could see garner a good bit from the shields is Jack.
Getting back on topic to mind/ff, I would say that I find it a little underwhelming compared to other control/ff combos. Like I mentioned before I have used forcefields for the ease of soft capping defense, a matter most important when initially aggroing mobs. Mind can mitigate the alpha strike without taking aggro though so the defense becomes somewhat less important when the mobs are spending their heavy hitters on one another. Also, when you can pinpoint mezzers and make them work for you the mez protection doesn't seem as valuable.
That's not to say that those things are rendered completely useless by mind. On a team you're sure to be welcomed for both your primary and secondary and the redundancy of the protection you offer will ensure everyone's safety.
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Well let's see. I'd say that Fire/FF and Ice/FF might be the best/most powerful combinations.|
Originally Posted by ketch
The imps have a notorious reputation as aggro monkeys so I doubt that it's just my playstyle affecting it. Also, as you noted, the trouble with their aggro management is complicated by the common and useful Tactics. When I spot a rough grouping I much prefer to despawn the imps, gather the mobs, lock them down, and resummon. Maybe it's not as efficient, but to me it's easier.
Additionally, outside of the imps, how much do controller pets benefit from forcefields? Stoney and Singularity are both very survivable already. Phantasm seems to avoid most aggro problems with its decoy. The one pet I could see garner a good bit from the shields is Jack. Getting back on topic to mind/ff, I would say that I find it a little underwhelming compared to other control/ff combos. Like I mentioned before I have used forcefields for the ease of soft capping defense, a matter most important when initially aggroing mobs. Mind can mitigate the alpha strike without taking aggro though so the defense becomes somewhat less important when the mobs are spending their heavy hitters on one another. Also, when you can pinpoint mezzers and make them work for you the mez protection doesn't seem as valuable. That's not to say that those things are rendered completely useless by mind. On a team you're sure to be welcomed for both your primary and secondary and the redundancy of the protection you offer will ensure everyone's safety. |
For Fire - Smoke lets you hit the soft cap without too much difficulty. Dispersion means that you are very very unlikely to have your Damage Aura (Hot Feet) get detoggled as long as you mez the sleep using mezzers or use a proactive break free if there are more than 1 or 2. Bubbled Imps split the incoming damage 4 ways instead of 1 or 2.
Ice is also nice. Opening with Ice patch (which isn't too hard to perma) gets the entire spawn flopping. Shiver can crunch their recharge and slow their movement to assure that they never get out of ice patch. Dispersion keeps Artic Air from getting detoggled in much the same way that if does for fire's Hot Feet. After casting those 2 powers I can move in and just stand there (and I have infact) and let bubbled Jack kill stuff while I eat or chat.
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If your main criteria for going Force Field is caring for a pet, you should go Mastermind. A Robots/Force Field Mastermind can solo archvillians while AFK.
But then I'm not that impressed. There isn't a single /FF or FF/ combo I can come up with that is bad enough I'd tell people to not play it, or so incredibly good it eclipses all other possibilities.
Mind/FF is easier to level early on because Mind is so strong from the start.
The lack of pets isn't a huge concern for my Mind/FF because the pets usually lack focus. They add damage, but in the single target department it's nothing that my Mes-Dom-Lev-(epic ST attack) can't compensate for. As long as you realize that the combo won't be an AoE damage powerhouse, you won't be disappointed by the damage output (all things considered).
Mesmerize is HUGE for some TFs, and HUGE for any mundane encounters.
The control options in mind makes up for the dip in def percentage for FF being a secondary, but the trade off is well worth it.
On a more subtle note, the powers in mind help out more in a soft capping IO schema.
The only thing I would like on my mind/ff is a single target immob, otherwise I feel it's fantastic just the way it is.
Hey gang! So I'm usually pretty defender obsessed, but after finishing my latest defender leveling project, I've come to the set I've been putting off since I got this game. Forcefields. Now, I love having bubblers with me on things like mothership raids and whatnot with the mez protection and the great defense. But with FF defenders seeming incredibly boring to play, I'm concerned that I'll just drop it after 30 levels or so. Now aside from defenders I have a 50 Ill/Rad that I just love to death (thanks for the build again Local_man) especially the power Deceive. It takes all my least favorite enemies like Malta sappers and turns them into my favorite. Sky raider engineers and whatnot I now actually look forward to. Anyway. Forcefields. So I wanted to do forcefields and still actually have fun. My question is. If I go ahead and make a Mind/FF (using mind to toy with my enemies the same way my Ill/rad does but on a larger scale and frankly id rather try a diff primary on a new toon) will it be able to defensively buff well enough to be comparable to a FF defender? I mean, I understand that technically speaking the Defender bubble will be stronger than the controller bubble especially with power boost. But will it be that noticable? Will people go and say "Man we shoulda grabbed a Defender Bubbler instead of this Troller"? Or will I be able to fill the defensive needs of the team while still totally messing with my enemies Troller-style? I appreciate any input you kind folks have on it. thanks.