With SOs, I'd slot lich as follows:
2 Acc, 2 -to hit debuff, 1 hold, 1 fear
or
2 Acc, 3 -to hit debuff, 1 hold
I find the fear duration to be acceptable without buffing, but a little more fear never hurt anybody. Or it did. Or something. But, the extra hold duration is very nice when the last thing standing is a boss and you'd like a little more hold duration on that petrifying gaze your pet just cast. It stacks nicely with your own holds, and with your Soul Extraction's hold.
What the lich throws out more than anything, though, is to hit debuffs. And they stack nicely, especially if your secondary is dark.
I wouldn't bother slotting lich for heal. In my experience, mobs that defeat the lich are usually so powerful that an extra heal SO wouldn't make a noticeable difference.
OK, I can see it does a lot of stacking to-hit. I can't quite seem to see what the percentages are right now, because... Well, Red Tomax is showing SQL errors for henchmen, ParagonWiki doesn't have exact numbers, Mids' Hero Designer doesn't show Henchmen powers and I can't run the game now. Excuses, excuses, excuses. By the same token, though, shouldn't I slot the Grave Knights for to-hit debuff, too? They have three dark blasts, each with the same debuffs as the Lich, and they occasionally like to stand back and just sort of blast. The Zombies have the same debuff, as well, but only on a solitary power - Life Drain.
I doubt I'll bother slotting my Mastermind attacks for to-hit debuff, but Fearsome Stare looks like it's definitely worth slotting for that.
So, OK, I guess I can go with to-hit debuffs. Since I can't decide between fear and hold, I guess I'll go with neither, which gives me one more thing to slot for. Since I'm looking at a common Invention enhancement for the to-hit debuff, shouldn't I still plop a heal one in the remaining slot anyway, or do I just go for two-slotting -to-hit. Keep in mind I'm forced into a global difficulty setting that already has enemies kind of low level. Like, -1 low. I haven't been able to find their base to-hit at that level, but I have a sneaking suspicion I might be able to bottom it out and may be overslotting. I could, of course, just slot for higher level enemies. Or I could slot for heal and keep the Lich alive long enough for me to heal him.
Question is - debuff/heal or debuff/debuff?
And while I'm on the subject, debuff/heal for the Grave Knights, or Debuff/Debuff or Heal/Heal? They die A LOT, so I'm actually going to want at least one heal, but you never know. The zombies die all the time, so Heal/Heal for them is a must. I don't have to worry about accuracy with the difficulty setting I've chosen, though hard-to-hit enemies will be a pain. Oh, well.
I have some ways yet to go before I have to worry about slotting the Dark Fluffy, but at least for that I don't have to worry about damage. It doesn't do any.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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With the to hit debuffs, if I recall they are on almost all of his attacks right? Everything except the hold has a to hit debuff component to it?
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
The lich does a magically delicious 9.38% base amount of "to hit" debuff with most of its attacks that have a to hit debuff attached to it. It does an even more delicious 18.75% base amount of "to hit" debuff with fearsome stare. Buffing the lich's base "to hit" debuff totals by 57.5% could go a long way toward resolving your minion durability issues, all by itself.
I'd rather slot grave knights with 2 acc and 3 damage SOs, and then put a heal into the final slot. Their melee-based heal recharges in 10 seconds, and I've found that a heal IO in the grave knights helps them more than it does in the lich (a least, that's been my experience). A defense debuff SO is also a reasonable choice for a final grave knight slot, if you are sticking with SO slotting.
You'll get little incremental value from slotting to hit debuffs in grave knights because they only have a 7.5% base to hit debuff per attack, and the debuff always goes away within 10 seconds or 6 seconds. In addition, you can put at most one to hit debuff SO into them without significantly weakening your MM's overall damage potential (Again, I like that 2 ACC, 3 DAM slotting as my base for grave knights). Also, you should already be flooring the accuracy of mobs with your own fearsome stare, darkest night, and other powers, when added in to your lich's to hit debuffs and, later, your dark secondary's minion (fluffy).
The lich actually does decent damage, and it is tempting to slot for damage as well (who doesn't love more DPS). But, his control and debuffing capabilities are quite strong, and so I emphasize them when choosing enhancements. I have so little difficulty keeping him alive, in most situations, that I've never once felt the urge to slot a heal SO in the lich.
There are lots of viable ways to slot, though. I'm merely describing my way and I can't say for certain that my way is best, or even best in most situations.
To answer Gavin's question: You are correct. Everything the lich does, except for petrifying gaze, has a -to hit debuff attached to it.
It really depends upon your secondary. If you are /dark I would franken slot him for acc/dmg/end and to hit debuff and put the cloud senses proc in the last slot.
If you have a secondary with little control like /therm or /pain I might consider slotting him for some hold or fear.
Overall on any build I would slot for to-hit debuff. All of his powers (except the hold) have a -to hit at significant levels.
On a side note I just slotted the cloud senses proc in both my lich and my dark servant, with great effect. Between the 2 of them i've noticed a great increase in my AoE damage.
Level 50s: to many to remember at this point
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To-hit debuff it is, then. I have been convinced |
Originally Posted by ShoeTattoo
The lich does a magically delicious 9.38% base amount of "to hit" debuff with most of its attacks that have a to hit debuff attached to it. It does an even more delicious 18.75% base amount of "to hit" debuff with fearsome stare. Buffing the lich's base "to hit" debuff totals by 57.5% could go a long way toward resolving your minion durability issues, all by itself.
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| I'd rather slot grave knights with 2 acc and 3 damage SOs, and then put a heal into the final slot. Their melee-based heal recharges in 10 seconds, and I've found that a heal IO in the grave knights helps them more than it does in the lich (a least, that's been my experience). A defense debuff SO is also a reasonable choice for a final grave knight slot, if you are sticking with SO slotting. |
That is to say, I can get away with a single accuracy enhancement and double-slot heal on them. I probably will. The question with Zombies is a bit less simple, however, as if I shave off an accuracy enhancement off my Zombies, they'll only have good accuracy against enemies up to even con. Against +1 enemies, their accuracy will suffer, so them I might leave with two accuracies, three damage and one heal. We'll see how much I team, because I don't think I team much.
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| The lich actually does decent damage, and it is tempting to slot for damage as well (who doesn't love more DPS). But, his control and debuffing capabilities are quite strong, and so I emphasize them when choosing enhancements. I have so little difficulty keeping him alive, in most situations, that I've never once felt the urge to slot a heal SO in the lich. |
On the other hand, I use my henchmen for damage first and foremost. I play the game to kill stuff, and that's what I focus on. I can provide my own support via my secondary, and wising up to the power of Fearsome Stare is a good way to go about it. Worse comes to worst, I can always Black Hole enemies until I resummon and maybe even rest, so I'll reserve survivability for my own devices for the most part. The henchmen deal damage, and the Lich has the only AoE I have (why don't I have Tenebrous Tentacles, myself?), so he gets damage. He doesn't have much (less than a Grave Knight, I think), but as long as he has enough to count, he gets damage slotting.
Unlike the Dark Servant, whom I'm not sure even HAS a damage-dealing power at all
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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The servant has 2 powers that deal damage, TT and Chill of the night. However both powers do terrible dmg and the Servant can't be slotted for damage anyway. Like I mentioned in my earlier post you can slot the Cloud Senses proc in him for lots of tasty AoE goodness.
Level 50s: to many to remember at this point
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I wouldn't slot damage in him even if I could. He's not a damage-dealing pet. I'm not sure many of the old pets are, though I've not played with them much, so I don't actually know.
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Originally Posted by Brynstar
The servant has 2 powers that deal damage, TT and Chill of the night. However both powers do terrible dmg and the Servant can't be slotted for damage anyway. Like I mentioned in my earlier post you can slot the Cloud Senses proc in him for lots of tasty AoE goodness.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Say, here's one last question. I get the Lich and I get the others, but what do I slot my Soul Extraction for? Right now I have it slotted for accuracy, triple damage and a single recharge. Given that it's on such a huge timer and temporary anyway, shouldn't I just slap another recharge enhancement when I get that chance?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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You're best to slot your soul extraction with the Recharge intensive pet Auras. One acc and as many Recharge IOs as you see fit (or the 3 recharge IO's from soul bound). |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
Say, here's one last question. I get the Lich and I get the others, but what do I slot my Soul Extraction for? Right now I have it slotted for accuracy, triple damage and a single recharge. Given that it's on such a huge timer and temporary anyway, shouldn't I just slap another recharge enhancement when I get that chance?
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I'll pull up Mid's just to give you an example of how I had mine slotted.
Edit:
Soul Extraction: SBA (Soulbound Allegiance): Rech/Acc, SBA: Rech/Acc/Dam
SBA: Dam/Rech, CTA (Call to Arms): Defense pet bonus, ER (Expedient Reinforcment): Resist pet bonus
This is my PvE setup. My soul extraction for PvP is slightly different although I'm considering getting rid of it. Between the -tohit in my personal primary attacks, lich and Weaken; my -tohit pretty much floors enemies tohit and accuracy.
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good slotting ideas, but as he is specifically not using set IOs, I would go with the additional recharge if you decide to put a 6th slot in here. |
Originally Posted by Tokyo
You're best to slot your soul extraction with the Recharge intensive pet Auras. One acc and as many Recharge IOs as you see fit (or the 3 recharge IO's from soul bound).
I'll pull up Mid's just to give you an example of how I had mine slotted. Edit: Soul Extraction: SBA (Soulbound Allegiance): Rech/Acc, SBA: Rech/Acc/Dam SBA: Dam/Rech, CTA (Call to Arms): Defense pet bonus, ER (Expedient Reinforcment): Resist pet bonus This is my PvE setup. My soul extraction for PvP is slightly different although I'm considering getting rid of it. Between the -tohit in my personal primary attacks, lich and Weaken; my -tohit pretty much floors enemies tohit and accuracy. |
however, with the level you are fighting at and the additional debuffs you're adding with the revised slotting to Lich, etc you may find you can use that slot better somewhere else. unless you are frequently self destructing a pet, most likely the lich, to use extraction on, it will probably be up often enough with just 1 recharge.
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He'll want at the very least the pet aura procs even if he isn't looking to use sets. Zombies are extremely vulnerable to lethal and fire damage more so than other Pet primaries. This lack of resistance and defense tend to make them VERY squishie so at the very least he should be looking at the 4 pet auras.|
Originally Posted by kendo
good slotting ideas, but as he is specifically not using set IOs, I would go with the additional recharge if you decide to put a 6th slot in here.
however, with the level you are fighting at and the additional debuffs you're adding with the revised slotting to Lich, etc you may find you can use that slot better somewhere else. unless you are frequently self destructing a pet, most likely the lich, to use extraction on, it will probably be up often enough with just 1 recharge. |
Yet another suggestion, including the Intensive Pet bonuses. Acc,Rech,Recharge Intensive Pet Def Aura,Recharge Intensive pet Resist Aura.
Otherwise: Acc/Rech/Rech/Rech 1 generic Acc enhancement is more than enough for your Soul Extraction as you're supremacy offers a 10% tohit bonus.
Keep in mind the higher the henchmen you extract the spirit from the more powerful the Extracted soul is. So use Soul Extraction on your lich.
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No, I honestly wouldn't want any of the procs or sets. I'm not interested in them. SOs and Commons are all I'm willing to use. Consider it a physical limiation.|
Originally Posted by Tokyo
He'll want at the very least the pet aura procs even if he isn't looking to use sets. Zombies are extremely vulnerable to lethal and fire damage more so than other Pet primaries. This lack of resistance and defense tend to make them VERY squishie so at the very least he should be looking at the 4 pet auras.
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As well, Zombies in general lack fire and lethal resistance, but they are not specifically vulnerable to them. I don't know what other henchmen have off-hand, so it's possible everyone else has defence or resistance to these effects, making zombies weaker by comparison, but unlike regular zombies, they don't have negative resistance to the damage types. Don't Genin also lack resistance of any kind and rely only on low-ish defence?
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I don't get to self-destruct my henchmen, but I actually lose zombies a lot of the time. They seem to take alpha strikes a lot, and they ARE pretty weak. It's not often I lose a Grave Knight and I almost never lose a Lich, but I often find myself wanting to extract a soul and not being able to because it's still recharging. Pretty much every other death I suffer, I can't extract a soul out of it. I'm just not very careful about it |
Originally Posted by kendo
however, with the level you are fighting at and the additional debuffs you're adding with the revised slotting to Lich, etc you may find you can use that slot better somewhere else. unless you are frequently self destructing a pet, most likely the lich, to use extraction on, it will probably be up often enough with just 1 recharge.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Personally, once i get him I generally use the Lich to take alpha strikes. He seldom dies, produces the best ghost if he does, and debuffs the enemy first anyway. |
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
I don't get to self-destruct my henchmen, but I actually lose zombies a lot of the time. They seem to take alpha strikes a lot, and they ARE pretty weak. It's not often I lose a Grave Knight and I almost never lose a Lich, but I often find myself wanting to extract a soul and not being able to because it's still recharging. Pretty much every other death I suffer, I can't extract a soul out of it. I'm just not very careful about it
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Usually, I send in the Lich; the Grave Knights right after him. The plain old zombies I generally keep in Defensive/Follow as Bodyguard fodder and ranged vomit dispensers. I only send them in if I think the enemy is thoroughly debuffed and mezzed, and I don't need Bodyguard.
Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
Is it worth fitting in one of those Hammi O's that buff Accuracy and all Mezzes? It's less accuracy than a 50 Acc IO, but it is still pretty decent. They are expensive, but not so much moreso than crafted IOs (at least the level 50 is not terrible, the 52's are 100million+).
Was something I've been looking at for my SpecOps and I was thinking the lich might be similar since he has so many different powers. The Universal Mez buff, might be a good one. It still leaves 5 slots for auras, set bonuses, etc.
Any thoughts?
"Hmm, I guess I'm not as omniscient as I thought" -Gavin Runeblade.
I can be found, outside of paragon city here.
Thank you everyone at Paragon and on Virtue. When the lights go out in November, you'll find me on Razor Bunny.
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Originally Posted by GavinRuneblade
Is it worth fitting in one of those Hammi O's that buff Accuracy and all Mezzes? It's less accuracy than a 50 Acc IO, but it is still pretty decent. They are expensive, but not so much moreso than crafted IOs (at least the level 50 is not terrible, the 52's are 100million+).
Was something I've been looking at for my SpecOps and I was thinking the lich might be similar since he has so many different powers. The Universal Mez buff, might be a good one. It still leaves 5 slots for auras, set bonuses, etc. Any thoughts? |
Depends what you intend to do with the build. PvE, sure go for it. PvP I'd recommend slotting your lich for -tohit Acc HO's.
I used my Fortunata to do a lot of ITF runs and eventually I saved up enough merits to buy that To Hit Debuff proc for my Lich. Oh... I like it! I know it's overkill for a proc recipe but when Lich procs, it's like doubling his damage because his damage is so low.
To Hit Debuff enhancements are the best for Lich IMO.
What's left is to normalize all Assassin Strikes and improve Stalker's old sets (Claw, MA and EM)! You don't need to bring back the missing PbAoE attack. You just need to make the existing ones better! For example, make Slice a WIDER and LONGER cone.
I would suggest slotting another recharge in Soul Extraction. Zombies are squishy enough to warrant it, in my opinion.
As and aside, it is worth noting that Fearsome Stare has the same base ToHit debuff as Darkest Night. I use it very often on boss groups so that the big guy hits my zombies even less often. Also, you can use Fearsome Stare as an opener, rather than letting the zombies take the alpha, and mitigate a ton of that damage. Then you can set Darkest Night and Tar Patch at your leisure.
Mastermind/Necromancy/Lich, for the sake of completeness and clarity.
Here's my problem - the Lich is a hybrid offence/control henchman, in a lot of ways like the Mercenaries Spec Ops, so I can slot him for a LOT of things. I obviously can't slot him for everything, and some things I don't WANT to slot him for, but among the things I can, I can't decide.
*note* I'm talking about SOs/Commons here. No sets. I know the easy answer is "just get these and these sets," but I don't want to. Let's not get into this, nothing good ever comes of it. Consider it a physical limitation and we'll be on the same page.
Now, off his description, I can see I can slot the Lich for damage, accuracy, debuff, hold, terrorize, immobilize, heal and knockback. Now, I don't plan to slot him for debuff, but I'm not averse to doing so if someone can convince me. Beyond that, I don't WANT to slot him for knockback. That'd actually make him worse at what he does. I'm not sure I want to slot of immobilize, either. I mean, large-scale immobilize is only marginally useful even at the best of times when it's completely under my control. Under his control, it's cool, but I'm not going to count on it.
That still leaves Heal, Hold and Terrorize. Heal goes into his Life Drain which keeps him alive. So far (this is pre 32) he's been my most survivable henchman, no doubt thanks to his higher hit points, but very likely thanks to his Life Drain. That's definitely something to look into, as I intend to slot all of my henchmen for heal. Hold goes into Petrifying Gaze. It's a very, very potent power... For me. I have some doubt it'll actually be much good on the Lich, with his suspect target acquisition priorities. I know the Extracted Soul has Fearsome Stare (or a hold, at any rate), and I can count the number of times it's been useful on the fingers of one hand. Granted, I don't have an Extracted Soul with me most of the time, so I don't know.
And Fear goes into Fearsome Stare, a power I actually don't use much, myself. Between Tar Patch and Darkest Night, I rarely need to, and I use status effects primarily to kill the toggles on my enemies - Invincibility off of Behemoths, Chill of the Night off of Spectral Demon Lords. But that's me. When push comes to shove, I very much use my Fearsome Stare to control large masses of enemies. But again - how useful is that in the hands of the Lich and his unpredictable targeting? If it were AoE like the Spec Ops, then his targeting wouldn't matter much, but since if he doesn't find trouble, trouble finds him, I have some degree of doubt he'd be able to line up cones very well. But is he?
I can only slot for two things at the moment, or for one thing twice. How much I can slot for isn't really subject to change, I just need to figure out what to slot for.