Both are good but I think you'll find Earth/Storm easier to play.
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There are some similarities and some differences between the two. Ice and Earth are the two lowest damage primaries for controllers. While you "can" solo them, don't expect it to be very fast -- you'll do much better on teams where you focus on control and let the teammates do the damage.|
Originally Posted by TWilli
I've been playing a fire/kin for a while now and I love it to death. Unfortunatly its time to make a new toon. I've taken an interest in storm summoning, but i don't know what primary to use. I've looked through the guides and I"m considering either stone or ice. I'm more of a damage type player but I just love my holds on my fire/kin so thats why i decided to make another troller. Anyway, any suggestions would help. Thanks
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The first question you need to ask is: "Do I want to play mostly in melee, or do I want to stay at range?" Ice Control is unique in that it has a power (Arctic Air) that lends itself to a melee playstyle, but you can also build an Ice Controller for range, too (using Shiver). (Personally, I like the melee build better.) Earth Control is better as a ranged set.
The second question is whether you prefer the secondary effect of Defense Debuff (in Earth) or Slow (in Ice). The third question is whether the visual effect of Earth or Ice is more fun for you.
My Ice/Storm was a great melee support character. Arctic Air let me stay up front with the tanks and scrappers. I let the Tank grab aggro, then throw out Ice Slick and move in with AA to mitigate damage to the melee characters. If Ice Slick was recharging, I could do the same thing with Freezing Rain. As I leveled up, I had more and more tools to control, but I generally stayed up front. Then the upper level Storm powers added some damage to allow me to solo at a passable speed, but I still preferred to team.
My Earth/Storm is effective at AoE control from range. It has three AoE control powers, and the Storm powers add even more. The Defense Debuff makes in easy for the entire team to hit the foes, allowing us to go after more difficult opponents. Also, Earth has Stalagmites, an AoE stun that can stack with Storm's Thunderclap to stun bosses -- Ice does not have a stun power. An Earth/Storm easily has enough control to be the only controller on a large team. In the upper levels, he can solo, but he also does much better on a team.
I find that the Earth/Storm is a little more 'strategic' than the Ice/Storm. I stay back and survey where my controls are needed. I think I prefer the Earth/Storm slightly more, but I tend to prefer ranged controllers. If you prefer melee, you may like the Ice/Storm better. Both are fun characters, and they are different enough that they don't feel the same.
You could always try them both.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
While thematically Ice/Storm is a nice fit I'm not a fan of it in practice, though much of it has to do with how I play /Storm.
I like to play /Storm as a herdcaner by using Hurricane to keep mobs grouped up while all my damage dealing powers tear them up.
Why I like Earth with this:
- The -kb of cages keeps mobs on their feet which makes it easier to herdcane.
- Earth has a few nice positional powers that herdcaning works well with, specifically Earthquake and Volcanic gasses. Quicksand too, but aside from the fact that is a huge -def power and can take a damage proc, it isn't really worth taking in this setup.
- The -tohit with Earthquake really helps your defense for those mobs that aren't in Hurricane's -tohit area.
- You can just totally load up procs in Earth powers. Procs and /Storm work well.
Why I don't like Ice with /Storm:
- One of Ice's key powers (Ice Slick) is rendered somewhat useless with the way I play storm. Not to mention that it is negated by Ice's immobs - something I've been upset with about the set ever since containment hit. Your key AoE containment power completely negates one of the other key powers of the set due to its -kb.
- Arctic Air, another key power and a PBAoE, is of very limited usefulness while Hurricane is on - which it is much of the time when I play /Storm.
- The slow secondary of Ice is has some redundancy in the slows of Snow Storm and Ice Storm.
At the end of the day, it's not that Ice is a BAD pairing with Storm (I don't believe anything is bad), but rather there is a lack of synergy and a fair amount of anti-synergy. Conversely Earth has a number of powers that synergize nicely. I am also big on synergy and I found that with my Ice/Storm the anti-synergy just bothered me far more than it probably should have and I finally had to shelve it.
In summary, go with Earth. It pairs very nicely with /Storm, ranking first or tied for first on my list of best primaries for /Storm. Other great primaries are Grav and Plant. Fire isn't bad, but also suffers somewhat from the PBAoE vs. Hurricane syndrome. Illusion, Mind and Ice are at the bottom of my list. Illusion and Mind have no AoE immob to allow easy herdcaning and Ice has the anti-synergy I mentioned above.
Current:
Fridgerato - Traps/Ice (Frdm)
Gadgetron - Grav/TA (Lbrty)
Ice/Kin Guide
I missed the part where you said you were a damage type player. I'd recommend looking into Plant/Storm for that.
I'm not sure why some are saying that Earth/Storm is hard to solo; it's almost trivial running at +0/x8/bosses, at least with an IOed build.
When teamed, you have enough area control powers to keep two or three separate spawns pretty much locked down all the time with Snow Storm, Freezing Rain, Volcanic Gasses, Earthquake, Stalagmites and Lightning Storm (the mitigation in not inconsiderable from the knockback in LS). Anything that escapes and tries to melee with you can blow away with Hurricane.
I put Achilles Heal: Chance for Res Debuff into Earthquake for a little extra damage. You can also put it in Freezing Rain. Impeded Swiftness: Chance for Damage works well in Snowstorm. As someone else mentioned, there are a lot of good procs you can put in the various powers.
The pet is pretty sturdy as well, and the new models look a lot nicer. I like the gemstone pet, but the lava pet is cool too.
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In the early levels, pre storm damage powers and pet, it doesn't do much damage and is tough to solo due primarily to lack of damage. After you get Lumpy (my name for Stoney, the pet) it gets better. After Tornado it's really good. After LS it is trivial.|
Originally Posted by Rodion
I'm not sure why some are saying that Earth/Storm is hard to solo; it's almost trivial running at +0/x8/bosses, at least with an IOed build.
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Now, with that said, there is a tactic I used when soloing (and teaming without a tank, for that matter) in the early levels that made things a lot easier. Add a range enhancement to Stone Cages and Quicksand. Go up to a group, target the closest then drop a Quicksand in front of him followed immediately by a Stone Cages. You will be out of range of the vast majority of early level mobs so no damage is coming in at this point. On a big group, a few mobs will be missed by the cages, but will be stuck in the sand so don't present a problem. Keep spamming cages and pick off the outliers with holds and stone prison.
Soloing this method is completely safe (albeit slow), but I would think that if you set your difficulty to -1/+6 or so (no bosses), you could get exp at a decent clip. I did this well before the new system so don't know exactly, fine tuning will be required. I leveled this way by going to hazard zones. Occasionally you may need to change it based on map type. This doesn't work well in small caves and other confined maps.
On teams you can use this to grab aggro while out of range. This allows the rest of your team to move up without one player grabbing the alpha. It dramatically improves survivability of a team without a tank.
Current:
Fridgerato - Traps/Ice (Frdm)
Gadgetron - Grav/TA (Lbrty)
Ice/Kin Guide
There is a real difference in playstyles -- I use Hurricane in only limited situations. I find that running Hurricane a lot often tends to irritate melee characters to have their targets blown all over the place. (I know that when I am on a melee character, I HATE teaming with someone who uses perma-'Cane!) Obviously, the tactics change depending upon the team, but most of the time, I run with a good tank. Solo, I use Hurricane a lot more. But most of my advice is not base upon a level 50 character who is fully IO'ed out. I think that giving advice to someone new with a character should be based upon leveling the character up rather than a fully IO'ed and proc'ed character.
On my Ice/Storm, I run Steamy Mist and Arctic Air all the time. Once the tank grabs aggro, I cast Ice Slick and then run in with AA. Ice Slick allows enough time for AA's effects to mitigate about 70-80% of the melee attacks on the melee characters, which is plenty -- their armors can easily handle the rest. While I stand there, using AA and Freezing Rain as my main area control, I contribute holds and damage with Block of Ice and Chilblain (slotted for damage).
On my Earth/Storm, I stay back and used ranged controls, running in only to cast Lightning Storm in later levels. Hurricane becomes mostly used to protect the squishier teammates, and to push foes into the location targetted AoEs.
On Ice Slick vs. Frostbite: It is simple -- don't use Frostbite on Ice Slick. No problem. I'm not concerned with AoE containment, since I really don't worry much about doing damage on my Ice/Storm on teams. I didn't even pick up Frostbite until level 30, as I mainly wanted it for its -knockback with Tornado.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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Then you haven't played with a good herdcaner! |
Originally Posted by Local_Man
I know that when I am on a melee character, I HATE teaming with someone who uses perma-'Cane!
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Nothing like bunched up, immobilized mobs for all those melee AoEs to nail at once. I duo'd my grav/storm with a Fire tank and it was great for burn.
Current:
Fridgerato - Traps/Ice (Frdm)
Gadgetron - Grav/TA (Lbrty)
Ice/Kin Guide
There is a sneaky way to combine Containment and Ice Slick.
Basically, you have to do what everyone tells you not to and enhance Frostbite for immob duration. This increases the duration of the immob but does NOT increase the duration of the anti-kb component. Enemies will still refuse to fall for those first 12 seconds, but after that they will flop right over.
I dont use this tactic all the time, but one place its hilariously useful is when you're being chased. You pop the group with Frostbite to keep them from following, wait 12 seconds, then throw Ice Slick at them followed by an AoE (Fireball is a great one for this). You just got a contained cheap shot at enemies who can't shoot back, and can't chase you even if they don't fall.
[edit: original post said 15 seconds, when the real time is 12 seconds.]
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Same thing works with Stone Cages and Earthquake -- same 12 second duration for the -knockback, but you get the benefit of a Defense Debuff, that helps your AoE attack hit everything more easily.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
There is a sneaky way to combine Containment and Ice Slick.
Basically, you have to do what everyone tells you not to and enhance Frostbite for immob duration. This increases the duration of the immob but does NOT increase the duration of the anti-kb component. Enemies will still refuse to fall for those first 12 seconds, but after that they will flop right over. I dont use this tactic all the time, but one place its hilariously useful is when you're being chased. You pop the group with Frostbite to keep them from following, wait 12 seconds, then throw Ice Slick at them followed by an AoE (Fireball is a great one for this). You just got a contained cheap shot at enemies who can't shoot back, and can't chase you even if they don't fall. [edit: original post said 15 seconds, when the real time is 12 seconds.] |
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
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That's almost an oxymoron. Good herdaners are few and far between. I think I've only seen one in my entire career.
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Originally Posted by AWRocketman
Then you haven't played with a good herdcaner!
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A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history--with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila. -Mitch Ratliffe, Technology Review, April, 1992
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Definite truth there, I tried with my main and it is not easy, but I could see if it was done right it would be awesome.|
Originally Posted by Krystalee
That's almost an oxymoron. Good herdaners are few and far between. I think I've only seen one in my entire career.
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I just started a earth/storm today so I am excited to see how it will fair, my ice/storm took a long time to level because of poor power choices back then, but now with alot of money into it and 20 respecs later he is running farms set at 0/6. Once I really learned how to use the power set it has been great.
Triceth LVL 50 Ice/Storm Controller
Ghost Scrapper LVL 50 MA/reflexes Scrapper
Gespin LVL 44 Spine/Regen Scrapper
Treal LVL 41 Emp Defender
Radill LVL 41 Ill/Rad Troller
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As other posts have said, good Herd-icaners are few and far between. I have certainly done it myself with success -- it was a very effective strategy in the heydays of AE -- let the tank run in, throw out Ice Slick/Earthquake/AoE Immob and Freezing Rain, then run around the outside of the group with Super Speed and Hurricane on, pushing the bad guys all towards the center. Throw out a Lightning Storm or two on the outside edge to keep knocking foes towards the inside.|
Originally Posted by AWRocketman
Then you haven't played with a good herdcaner!
Nothing like bunched up, immobilized mobs for all those melee AoEs to nail at once. I duo'd my grav/storm with a Fire tank and it was great for burn. |
But even then, I would pop Hurricane on only when I needed it, and leave it off most of the time. And my experience with most other Storm players who use Hurricane a lot tends to be that they view it like a windy Dispersion Bubble -- leave it on all the time as a defensive power, ignoring the fact that it is pushing foes away from the Melee people.
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Quote:
When Hurricane's mechanics were changed (i6? i7?) due to PvP whining (waaah, my scrapper/tank can't just walk up on the ground to every squishy and pound them, in a game where everybody who chooses certain powers can operate in three dimensions), it made the power a lot less useful. The repel pulse used to recur every tenth of a second, or something like that, and only extended just slightly beyond the graphic. This was fabulous for repositioning mobs where you wanted them, with the occasional knockback displacing one or three. Now the repel pulse recurs with a much longer gap (a second?) and slides mobs a looooonnnnggg way away, not giving you the precision once possible. In addition, critters can run into the hurricane during the gaps, and they invariable hit a different vector when the pulse expels them (slight movements along a small circumference), resulting in scatter.|
Originally Posted by Krystalee
That's almost an oxymoron. Good herdaners are few and far between. I think I've only seen one in my entire career.
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This is the only nerf in the game that has really bothered me (obviously, since I'm still kvetching about it); I actually liked ED, though I'm not sure I should admit that in public. (Note: I did not have a /regen scrap before i5.)
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The problem with the "new" mechanics is even "kissing" a foe with the edge of the cane--if at the wrong time during a repel pulse--sends the mob several feet from where it was standing.|
Originally Posted by Local_Man
ignoring the fact that it is pushing foes away from the Melee people.
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Obviously if your melee have mature defenses they probably don't need the -tohit debuff, but otherwise increased safety usually comes with increased irritation.
I'm desperate to roll a fire/storm controller (even with an excessive number of fire control characters) but am trying to save it for Going Rogue. I can't wait though.
If you are truly burnt out on fire, I'd go earth. But the fire/storm synergies are strong.
-Mod8-
If you are using Latin in your post you are probably trolling
Have a question? Try the PlayNC Knowledge Base
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Storm is an often underrated secondary. It works well with most primaries. Having done both a fire/rad and an ice/storm. I'd have to say though the fire/storm synergies sure seem to be there in a major way.
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Originally Posted by Moderator 08
If you are truly burnt out on fire, I'd go earth. But the fire/storm synergies are strong.
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A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history--with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila. -Mitch Ratliffe, Technology Review, April, 1992
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I really like the fire/storm combo I was thinking about starting one, though I have yet to try a plant/* or a */cold, so I may try something with that. I am not sure if the two would work together though
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Originally Posted by Moderator 08
I'm desperate to roll a fire/storm controller (even with an excessive number of fire control characters) but am trying to save it for Going Rogue. I can't wait though.
If you are truly burnt out on fire, I'd go earth. But the fire/storm synergies are strong. |
Triceth LVL 50 Ice/Storm Controller
Ghost Scrapper LVL 50 MA/reflexes Scrapper
Gespin LVL 44 Spine/Regen Scrapper
Treal LVL 41 Emp Defender
Radill LVL 41 Ill/Rad Troller
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Fire/Storm is a great build, but you had better prepare to max slot for Recovery. It can drain a blue bar faster than just about any other build. Start saving up for the Numina's and Miracle Uniques and every other Recovery bonus you can get. With a melee-oriented build and no self-heal, it is also tough on Regen, but there are too many good powers to fit in the Medicine Pool.
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Originally Posted by Moderator 08
I'm desperate to roll a fire/storm controller (even with an excessive number of fire control characters) but am trying to save it for Going Rogue. I can't wait though.
If you are truly burnt out on fire, I'd go earth. But the fire/storm synergies are strong. |
LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control
Quote:
Illusion/Storm is also good for damage. But yes; Plant/Storm is nasty. Seeds + Roots + Freezing Rain melts spawns even at fairly low levels.
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Originally Posted by Oedipus_Tex
I missed the part where you said you were a damage type player. I'd recommend looking into Plant/Storm for that.
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Arc #40529 : The Furies of the Earth
Heh. "Seeds, Roots, and Rain: everything you need to be a successful farmer."
If we are to die, let us die like men. -- Patrick Cleburne
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The rule is that they must be loved. --Jayne Fynes-Clinton, Death of an Abandoned Dog
I've been playing a fire/kin for a while now and I love it to death. Unfortunatly its time to make a new toon. I've taken an interest in storm summoning, but i don't know what primary to use. I've looked through the guides and I"m considering either stone or ice. I'm more of a damage type player but I just love my holds on my fire/kin so thats why i decided to make another troller. Anyway, any suggestions would help. Thanks