If one wished to do Dark Blast a favor
By
ClawsandEffect,
Posted on: 2009-10-20 07:20 in Suggestions and Ideas
I was just thinking that today. I've played CoH for 4 years now, and have tried Dark Blast for a while, and though I've really liked the look, I've never liked playing it because it simply isn't as powerful as the other sets.
Most blast sets have a 'tier 3' powerful (non-snipe) ranged blast.
Ice: Bitter Ice Blast
Fire: Blaze
Archery: Blazing Arrow
Sonic: Shout
Radiation Blast: Cosmic Burst
Dark Blast gets Siphon Life, but that does nowhere near the damage as the other blasters' 'tier 3' ranged blast. As we can see from the post above, Siphon Life got changed so it was up to scratch with other melee sets, so please can Siphon Life get upgraded too?
Also, why does a blasting set have 'Dark Pit'? It doesn't do dmg. It's more like a power that belongs on a defending or controlling set. It really should have something like Soul Drain, or Aim.
Dark Blast needs a serious look at. I want to play a toon with Dark Blast, but I know it's not going to be as fun because I know my blasting set is weakest. Please devs - if you're reading - do Dark Blast a favour!
We've been promised more proliferation, and there really isn't anything left to proliferate to Blasters other than Dark Blast. When that happens, chances are the set will get a thorough looking-over. Proliferation usually doesn't affect the source set, but it's possible that Dark Blast could be found lacking and upgraded, itself, anyway.
JUST looking at Dark Blast by itself out of the blue will be hard to sell to the development team, but we really SHOULD be about due for another set of proliferations, so the opportunity is there.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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I'd also like it if Moonbeam got the proper increased secondary effect that other snipes get. Right now it does the standard -9.375% To-Hit (Defender version) that the other attacks do. Compare to, say, Zapp, which does double the endurance drain compared to the other attack powers in Elec Blast.
Also Dark Pit should be shot into the sun.
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/signed on the proposed change, as I think that would remedy the key limitation of the set.
The set scores very high on "cool factor", especially with customizable colors. But, it has always been relatively weak against single targets and I've found that difficult to get past.
The additional proposal to boost the secondary effect of the snipe would also be a helpful step to take.
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Dark Pit is a good power, but its long-ish recharge kind of hurts it. It's got an acc penalty, but then again so do all AoE stuns. I think it would be improved by reducing the recharge time from 60 to 45 seconds (same as Thunder Clap) and increasing the radius from 20 to 25 feet. The issue with Dark Pit is that Dark Blast already has incredible amounts of utility for a blast set, which is why I think it's highly unlikely that the set as a whole will be ported to Blasters as-is.
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Originally Posted by IanTheM1
Also Dark Pit should be shot into the sun.
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@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."
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That's the problem with it: context. It's the fourth power in the set, just after a snipe and right before an AoE immobilize. This leaves Dark Blast ailing for more attacks (well, correction: attack in the singular) for a good number of levels. It's also only mag 2, making it only effective against minions. When combined with the accuracy penalty, this makes it pretty lame at both the low levels (where stunning decently large groups of minions might be worth it if you could hit them) and at high levels (where stunning minions, while not useless, is definitely more situational). And that's on top of the long recharge and small radius. I know you can theoretically stack it with something else, but that highly depends on what set you pair it with or who you're teaming with.|
Originally Posted by macskull
Dark Pit is a good power, but its long-ish recharge kind of hurts it. It's got an acc penalty, but then again so do all AoE stuns. I think it would be improved by reducing the recharge time from 60 to 45 seconds (same as Thunder Clap) and increasing the radius from 20 to 25 feet. The issue with Dark Pit is that Dark Blast already has incredible amounts of utility for a blast set, which is why I think it's highly unlikely that the set as a whole will be ported to Blasters as-is.
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And yeah, like you said, the set is about half utility powers, most of them not very good anyway.
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By the way, not all AoE stuns suffer an accuracy penalty. I'm pretty sure Lightning Clap does not, and while not an immobilize, I know Frozen Aura doesn't.
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Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
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Well, the problem with Dark Pit (and why blasters will probably get something else in it's place) isn't the fact that it's a no-damage stun, but rather the fact that it is part of a set that also includes an AoE immobilize. Ask any Fire Control player: AoE Stun + AoE Immobilize = AoE Hold. Probably explains why Dark Pit is only mag 2 instead of mag 3, if it were mag 3 a Dark Miasma/Dark Blast defender would have just as much control available as a Fire Controller. |
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
That's the problem with it: context. It's the fourth power in the set, just after a snipe and right before an AoE immobilize. This leaves Dark Blast ailing for more attacks (well, correction: attack in the singular) for a good number of levels. It's also only mag 2, making it only effective against minions. When combined with the accuracy penalty, this makes it pretty lame at both the low levels (where stunning decently large groups of minions might be worth it if you could hit them) and at high levels (where stunning minions, while not useless, is definitely more situational). And that's on top of the long recharge and small radius. I know you can theoretically stack it with something else, but that highly depends on what set you pair it with or who you're teaming with.
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Blasters are also very unlikely to get Life Drain in any form. No blaster set has a true self heal in it, apparently by design, and I don't expect that design to change. (No, Drain Psyche is NOT a heal, it will not keep you alive when you have a sliver of health and are taking damage)
Dark Blast has a slew of problems that will impede it being proliferated. I will be VERY surprised if blasters get Dark Blast as-is.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
I really like the idea of increased damage on Life Drain. Its the EXACT thing I thought of when Kendai and I were discussing Dark Blast. Another idea could be to add a Self +dam to it.
I would also agree that the set as a whole needs work, as I can only see myself taking Dark Blast, Gloom, Tenebrous Tentacles and Nightfall from it. Moonbeam, Dark Pit, Torrent, Life Drain and Blackstar are each barely worth a power selection and entirely skippable. Though in the case of Blackstar I would add that this is because I've found the nuke powers underwhelming in general and completely outclassed by Shield Charge and Lightning Rod, but that's another rant.
A lot of the blast sets are relics of an old design philosophy, now becoming increasingly irrelevant in the game City of Heroes has become, and Dark Blast is a prime example.
Screw the damn cottage rule and buff/modify/upgrade Dark Blast.
Also Devices.
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I'd like to see Life Drain converted into, or replaced by a ranged version of Follow Up if it gets ported to blasters. Blasters probably are never going to get a true self heal power, and I surmise that that is precisely the reason they don't have Dark Blast yet. |
Originally Posted by Tenebris_EU
I really like the idea of increased damage on Life Drain. Its the EXACT thing I thought of when Kendai and I were discussing Dark Blast. Another idea could be to add a Self +dam to it.
I would also agree that the set as a whole needs work, as I can only see myself taking Dark Blast, Gloom, Tenebrous Tentacles and Nightfall from it. Moonbeam, Dark Pit, Torrent, Life Drain and Blackstar are each barely worth a power selection and entirely skippable. Though in the case of Blackstar I would add that this is because I've found the nuke powers underwhelming in general and completely outclassed by Shield Charge and Lightning Rod, but that's another rant. A lot of the blast sets are relics of an old design philosophy, now becoming increasingly irrelevant in the game City of Heroes has become, and Dark Blast is a prime example. Screw the damn cottage rule and buff/modify/upgrade Dark Blast. Also Devices. |
The amount of debuff/control that Dark Blast has could be problematic as well. Dark Pit + Tenebrous Tentacles is a de-facto mag 2 AoE hold (Like I said before AoE Stun + AoE Immobilize = AoE Hold), and just about every power in the set does -tohit as a secondary effect. If and when Dark Blast ever gets ported to blasters I fully expect Dark Pit and LIfe Drain to not make the trip with the rest of the set.
On your second point, Devices is fine. One power in it needs to be looked at (Time Bomb), but there is nothing in need of fixing with the set as a whole. It is perfect for players who prefer to avoid melee on their blasters, and has abilities no other blaster secondary has.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
The "AoE Stun + AoE Immobilize = AoE Hold" idea quite honestly comes off as Cryptic-era thinking. I know where you're coming from, but I feel it's irrelevant, because Stuns are already 90% as good as Holds. Yeah, Tenebrous Tentacles can help, but only marginally.
And that's where the real issue with Dark Blast comes from, now that I think of it. It's clearly supposed to be a more Controller-y blast set, but since Defenders aren't Controllers, it's not allowed to actually be any good. See also: Trick Arrow.
What I would support is bumping Dark Pit up a few tiers and tweaking its numbers so that it can at least have a chance to stun lieutenants. Oh, and also give it a decent to-hit debuff effect as well. At that point the 60 second recharge would be well-deserved.
On the other hand, I fully agree that Devices is largely OK.
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Lightning Clap is a PBAoE stun, requiring you to get into melee range to affect the maximum number of targets. Melee range powers usually have some advantage over corresponding ranged powers to compensate for the additional risk involved in using them.
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Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
By the way, not all AoE stuns suffer an accuracy penalty. I'm pretty sure Lightning Clap does not, and while not an immobilize, I know Frozen Aura doesn't.
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Well, let's look at that here. |
Originally Posted by IanTheM1
The "AoE Stun + AoE Immobilize = AoE Hold" idea quite honestly comes off as Cryptic-era thinking. I know where you're coming from, but I feel it's irrelevant, because Stuns are already 90% as good as Holds. Yeah, Tenebrous Tentacles can help, but only marginally.
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An AoE Immobilize keeps things right where they are, in other words, gathered up perfectly for AoEs.
An AoE Stun keeps things from doing anything, so you are safe from attack while the stun lasts, but things will wander around out of AoE damage range.
An AoE Hold does both of those things, it prevents the spawn from moving, and it prevents the spawn from doing anything.
So, if you combine an AoE Stun with an AoE Immobilize, it has the same net effect as an AoE Hold. Fire Control players use that tactic frequently in order to keep a spawn within Hot Feet's damage radius, because the AoE Hold in the set has a MUCH longer recharge than the combination of Fire Cages and Flashfire.
So, if Dark Blast were ported over to blasters exactly as it is, I can see Dark/Fire being a popular combination. You'd have the AoE lockdown potential in Dark Blast combined with the PBAoE damage in Fire Manipulation. Blazing Aura and Hot Feet aren't that great on their own. But if you can prevent a spawn from doing anything while they tick away, you can focus your attacks on the Lieutenant that avoided being stunned, while your damage auras kill off all the helpless minions.
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Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
As I said, I know where you're coming from, so I really don't need the elaboration.
But I have very rarely seen AoE Stuns cause mobs to drastically scatter, especially since I'm fairly certain they can get bunched up on each other. And what scatter I have seen wasn't anyway near "outside AoE range".
There's also something to be said of the fact that Dark Pit is an AoE while Tenebrous Tentacles are a cone, making it slightly less likely to hit an entire group with both.
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Help keep Paragon City alive with the unofficial City of Heroes Tabletop Role Playing Game!
.... port it over to Blasters already! That would be doing Dark Blast a favor, and us, it's a win / win.
Dark Blast is a nice blast set with good AoE and a nice secondary effect. I have no reason to believe that it isn't fine as is. But, if the developers ever feel that Dark Blast needs a favor, I have one in mind.
Change Life Drain's damage from 1 DS to 1.96 DS.
Why? Siphon Life, the melee cousin to Life Drain, was recently changed to 1.96 DS. Life Drain has a higher recharge time and end cost and heals the same amount, but on the other hand it is ranged, and in a set that offers good AoE damage rather than practically none. Under these circumstances, 1.96 DS seems like the most obvious compromise value. In addition, a 1.96 DS Life Drain would give Dark Blast a third strong non-snipe ST attack. That would be pretty nice.
Again, this doesn't need to happen for Dark Blast to be a functional set. But if the devs felt like doing Dark Blast a favor, this is the favor I'd like.
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