Quote:
You need not say more, lol, it's uses are few and it's cost is immense. Not that the power overall sucks, but it's not well suited to a melee DPS or stealth class. Maybe in PvP sometimes, but rarely. Something more useful would be great.
|
Originally Posted by xXWeaponPrimeXx
So, I'm starting this thread to bring stupid powers to light to the community and devs. This is NOT a flame thread, post only real and intelligent thoughts here please.
I'll get the ball rolling with Stalker Energy Armor: Repulse This toggle power creates a field that violently repels nearby foes. each enemy repelled costs you additional endurance. Why was this given to a stalker? Need I say more? |
Quote:
If that philosophy was to rule all changes made to the game, not one power would ever have changed since release. They are always reassessing and rebalancing powers and power sets. We are merely trying to give some ideas on which ways to go about it.|
Originally Posted by Smash_Zone
If you don't like the power, don't pick it. Simple.
|
Anyone else know any powers that either don't make sense for their power sets/classes or don't do their jobs?
Quote:
I see your point and understand how threat rating works. The only problem is that the scenario you pose only works if you are the only melee class, or if the others have non-suppressing stealth as well. Stalkers, Brutes, Scrappers, Tanks, Mastermind Pets, any melee class without that non-suppressing stealth bonus will be visible at full range to that second spawn. This the what I find issue with when a tank stealths. Are the other melee people supposed to just watch and stand next to the blasters useless, or are they supposed to go in and fight too, at which point they will receive the alpha strike of spawn 2. If your stealth DID suppress though, you'd get that second spawn, but at least your teammates wouldn't. That's a tank's job, stealth or not. I'm not saying a good tank couldn't do some damage control and mop up the situation, but without stealth there would have been no situation in the first place.|
Originally Posted by Fleeting Whisper
Stealth Radius does not affect your Threat rating*. Ergo, stealth powers (whether they suppress or don't) do not affect your ability to tank a spawn. When you engage with an enemy they start ignoring your stealth radius and pay attention to your threat rating, as do their buddies in the same spawn (though your threat rating to them is not necessarily the same as your threat rating to the first; but that's the case even if you don't have stealth).
Stealth does two things for a tank: 1) Makes it more likely that you get to hit them first (stealthy Foot Stomp > alpha strike) 2) Makes it less likely that you'll get additional spawns to join the fray (which could be dangerous to you or your team) And, with respect to the second advantage, if you do want an extra spawn, you can still attack them and they'll ignore your stealth. So, having unsuppressed stealth is strictly superior to having suppressed stealth, or no stealth. The only possible disadvantage to stealth is that you won't get a second spawn to attack you, which you can work around by simply attacking the second spawn first. |
Again, not saying there isn't a place for it, just that it causes more problems than benefits to a tank (not necessarily tankER).
Quote:
Hey, now I will disagree with whomever has a differing opinion and won't hesitate to post about it. You realize I'm also disagreeing with Sam over there, not just you.| Really, if you are going to nit pick, how about you go after the other people who have messed up their info (and maybe the next time by more than 0.62%, good heavens). On a couple occasions you had, samuel had, and a couple other posts by others. Seems like some very selective nits to pick. Enough trying to justify it, lol. |
Also note, most of those other ideas (Stalker Repulse, Tanker stealth and Tanker sleep) I also disagreed with and commented on regardless of if they were your opinions or not. I'm an equal opportunity argue'er here.
Quote:
| If you want to be stealthy then be stealthy. By all means. Just don't leave it as our only option when stealth is meant to be a personal choice. |
Quote:
| Pools are in the game for the purpose of personal choice beyond what your class is designed for. |
Guess what theme Dark Armor has? Sneaky, emo fear vampire theme. It's suppose to have a sense of depression and darkness so the set has controls and debuffs. You also sap enemies to fill up your HP and revive you.
What you're asking for is a change in the sets theme to accomplish your own view of how the set should be. I don't like Stone armor because I don't like the 'huge sluggish golem' theme the set has but I'm not going to protest now for them to change Rooted and Granite Armor (although I think they will, hopefully it'll be more about controlling earth to protect you and less about being a rock-covered monster).
Quote:
| If melee classes got a version of stealth on par with Energy Cloak, and Energy Cloak was replaced with some AoE aggro grabbing aura, you could then choose to be the exact character you were before, at no cost to you! How can you NOT like getting something else for free??? |
Right now, you can choose to take Energy Cloak and get the defense or just get another defense toggle like weave which'll give the same amount of defense. Or you can get both. EA won't have issues running all those toggles.
As for set balance, that's a whole 'nother debate. Some sets just have other advantages than others. You may say WP is stronger than DA but who cares? DA is great! And when you have more than 1 DA on the team, they just make eachother GREATER, unlike WP.
EA will probably be changed but not for the reason you're saying. Currently, EA has Conserve power. If EA is proliferated to Scrappers and Tankers, they'll need to replace Conserve Power with something else just like they did with Electric Armor. IMO, I hope it's a click like Energize but rather than a heal/+regen, I hope it's +resist (specifically to Psy) and recharges decently fast.
Quote:
| I see your point and understand how threat rating works. The only problem is that the scenario you pose only works if you are the only melee class, or if the others have non-suppressing stealth as well. Stalkers, Brutes, Scrappers, Tanks, Mastermind Pets, any melee class without that non-suppressing stealth bonus will be visible at full range to that second spawn. |
For less resilient ATs like Stalkers or Dominators, those are the 'smart' ATs. What I mean is, if they don't have awareness of their surroundings, they'll die even with a tank taunting all night for them. So if the spawn is too close, it's on *them* to assess how to approach the fight. Chances are, the Stalker will wait for Hide to come back and jump in with an AS. The Dom will just hit domination and throw an AoE control.
A tanker's job isn't to babysit the team, it's to manage aggro. Cloak of Darkness/Energy Cloak are just alternate methods available to you.
Tell ya' what? I'd trade Dark Armor's Stealth power for some Knockback Protection in a New York minute.
PS: I'm not disagreeing with you because I don't like you. I'm disagreeing with you because I don't much care for your idea (is there an actual idea in this thread?). It's just forum debate, nothing to take overly serious.
And you know, after we're exhausted and finally move on to other threads about other things, we'll be the bestest forum buddies because we like chatting on the forums. Just like me and Sam...right Sam? We're bestest friends, right?
*pounds knuckles into hand*
Right, Sam? See? Bestest buddies...
Anyways, if we're actually suggesting things here, I'd actually want there to be more variance in future sets. Rather than adhering to a formula, keep in touch with the theme instead. So if a Tanker set is suppose to be more team-inclined than tankery, then as a player you can pick that set or something else you like concept-wise. Really, it's why Stalkers get such a short end of the stick when it comes to armor sets. So many are built to be 'Tankery' sets that they end up being lackluster compared to the more misdirectional distraction theme that Stalkers are built toward. They end up losing a key power (like Quick Recovery for Regen/WP, or the -Endurance built into Electric Field in Elec Armor) that really complete the set. There's only 1 proper misdirection set for Stalkers and it'll probably stay unique to them because they will never get another one, only Tankery sets.
Quote:
I'm sorry, but you're simply wrong. Let's look at Tough and Weave. Switch their Archetype to Unspecified and watch what they do.|
Originally Posted by Archon099
This would make sense if they made Tough/Weave offer better stats for Scraps/Tanks/Brutes, but they didn't. They changed the powers to benefit some classes more than others because they would be overpowered on some. They made Leadership better for support classes because it's their job and because a scrapper offering the same bonus would be not only survivable and damage dealing, but would now have buffing to add to his stellar repertoire. Look at Epic Pools. People complain that scrappers have some of the worst moves compared to others. Why? They already have the best of both worlds: damage with armor. There isn't much they CAN'T do besides ranged moves and support.
|
Tough does:
RES(Smashing, Lethal) 1.50000 Melee_Res_Dmg% for 0.75s If NOT on a PvP map
And Weave does:
DEF(Melee, AOE, Lethal, Cold) 0.50000 Melee_Buff_Def% for 0.75s If NOT on a PvP map
Effect does not stack from same caster
A Scrapper has a Melee_Res_Dmg mod of 0.075, a Blaster has a mod of 0.07, while a Tanker has a modifier of 0.1. This means that a Blaster would get 1.5*0.07 = 0.105 = 10.5%, a Scrapper would get 1.5*0.075 = 0.1125 = 11.25%, and a Tanker would get 1.5*0.1 = 0.15 = 15%. Check it!
A Scrapper has a Melee_Buff_Def mod of 0.075, a Blaster has a mod of 0.07, and a Tanker has a mod of 0.1. This means a Blaster would get 0.5*0.07 = 0.035 = 3.5%, a Scrapper would get 0.5*0.075 = 0.0375 = 3.75% and a Tanker would get 0.5*0.1 = 0.05 = 5%. Check it!
Each pool power uses a variety of modifiers, which is what makes the different ATs do different amounts with them. They're not specifically designed to be better for some ATs than for others, they are merely be designed to do certain things which some ATs are better than than others. Generally speaking, each effect comes with two mods, a melee one and a ranged one, which doesn't in any way correspond to melee and ranged attacks. In fact, I'm not entirely clear which powers use melee and which powers use ranged. I used to think that powers which affected other people used ranged and powers which affected yourself used melee, but I don't know.
Again, when we're discussing balance and subsystems, it pays to be anal.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
Pool powers are identical for all archetypes. What makes the numbers come out different is AT modifiers, not a specific decision to make some powers better for certain ATs. Changing Stealth to work like Cloak of Darkness and Energy Cloak would be a significant and unprecedented departure from the existing system. This is the continuing problem with your reasoning: faulty assumptions backed up by incorrect numbers and misunderstood mechanics.| ... The tanker version is higher because they aren't a damage dealer, and therefore wouldn't be overpowered to have more armor. The Brute, Scrapper, and Blaster (the one I left out of that group but wasn't talking about anyway) versions are weaker because they have heavy damage. ... |
Stealth does not interfere with your ability to tank, and the defense buff is of inarguable benefit. At the very least, CoD stacks nicely with the to-hit debuffs in Dark Melee and the defense buff of Parry/Divine Avalanche, while EC is in a defense based set.
To a varying extent, almost every power set has skippable powers. Superior Invisibility and Quick Recovery are superior to their power pool counterparts in the same way as CoD and EC. They are an integral part of the theme and identity of their power sets. If Dark Armor and Energy Aura are in need of buffing, it should not be done by stripping out their more unique powers.
Quote:
| I see your point and understand how threat rating works. The only problem is that the scenario you pose only works if you are the only melee class, or if the others have non-suppressing stealth as well. Stalkers, Brutes, Scrappers, Tanks, Mastermind Pets, any melee class without that non-suppressing stealth bonus will be visible at full range to that second spawn. This the what I find issue with when a tank stealths. Are the other melee people supposed to just watch and stand next to the blasters useless, or are they supposed to go in and fight too, at which point they will receive the alpha strike of spawn 2. If your stealth DID suppress though, you'd get that second spawn, but at least your teammates wouldn't. That's a tank's job, stealth or not. I'm not saying a good tank couldn't do some damage control and mop up the situation, but without stealth there would have been no situation in the first place. |
For a real problem/strange power, look at Sonic Resonance/Sonic Repulsion. It is a clone of Kinetics/Repel, Energy Aura/Repulse and Force Field/Repulsion Field, but it has to be anchored on an ally and costs 2.5x as much endurance per enemy knocked back and 1.33x as much endurance per second. Repulse powers are already of limited and situational usefulness, making Sonic's version seem almost completely useless except for griefing meleers. In addition to the absurdly higher endurance cost, Sonic Repulsion basically requires you to have a teammate familiar with the use of such a power and to actively communicate about when it should be turned on and off. Does anyone ever use this power?
Quote:
Good point. I completely forgot about that.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
That's sort of trumped by the fact not all melee sets have Stuns yet *everyone* has fear available to them thanks to the presence pool.
|
Quote:
| As for the costs, well that's sort of the set's weakness. But it's not always necessary to run all those toggles. If the enemy only does lethal/smashing and energy (like Freaks) then you don't need everything. If you're fighting things with retarded -def debuffs that may be auto-hit (CoT quicksand) then the defense and -ToHit aren't going to help. If the enemy is resistant to stun then why run OG? It's more about toggle management, like has been said earlier. |
I'm always reluctant to trust in toggle management too much, simply because so many situations require almost all toggles.
Quote:
| Right, Sam? See? Bestest buddies... |
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Not sure if it's been addressed, because I didn't feel like slogging through the whole thread.
Cloak of Darkness's stealth suppresses in combat, but it's defense does not suppress under any circumstance. It (and maybe Energy Cloak, I'm not familiar with that power) is the only stealth power to my knowledge that the defense doesn't suppress along with the stealth. And it has exactly the same defense numbers as Weave, adjusted by AT modifiers. So, slotted for a tank it gives an additional ~9% defense, without the need to take 2 other powers first.
I use it to great effect on my BS/DA scrapper. It is an integral part of getting him to soft cap, which I have achieved. If you think DA is squishy, watch a DA that is softcapped to all positions and can heal to full from 1 HP in a crowd.
45% defense, 30%+ resistance to everything, close to 60% resistance to psi and NE.
And I could not have done that without Cloak of Darkness. You can do similar things with a tank, though softcapping is a lot harder because you don't get Parry to help with melee defense.
There aren't any useless powers in the game, just powers that most people fail to think outside the box enough to use effectively.
Repulse on a stalker can be an effective "Oh $#!t" button if you need breathing room and are taking a lot of melee damage.
My wife's DA tank has Cloak of Darkness and doesn't have any trouble at all holding agro. It's not as counterproductive to tanking as it's detractors insist that it is. It gives you the ability to pull exactly the group you want to. Leave your damage aura off and stealth through the crowd. When you get to the group you want, turn Death Shroud back on and Taunt, that group is yours now, and they did no damage to anyone else while you were establishing agro.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Dechs Kaison See, it's gems like these that make me check Claws' post history every once in a while to make sure I haven't missed anything good lately. |
Quote:
I'm not sure that's entirely true, the stealth suppressing. Cloak of Darkness provides two types of Stealth: +35 StealthRadius for 0.75s and +389 StealthRadiusPlayer for 0.75s. Last time this came up, the StealthRadiusPlayer stat was explained to me to be stealth in PvP. That suppresses normally. Its StealthRadius, however, does not. Let's nook at a more normal power which suppresses as expected: Cloaking Device|
Originally Posted by ClawsandEffect
Cloak of Darkness's stealth suppresses in combat, but it's defense does not suppress under any circumstance. It (and maybe Energy Cloak, I'm not familiar with that power) is the only stealth power to my knowledge that the defense doesn't suppress along with the stealth. And it has exactly the same defense numbers as Weave, adjusted by AT modifiers. So, slotted for a tank it gives an additional ~9% defense, without the need to take 2 other powers first.
|
+20 StealthRadius for 0.75s
Effect does not stack from same caster
Suppressed when Attacked, for 10 seconds (Always)
Suppressed when HitByFoe, for 10 seconds (Always)
Suppressed when MissionObjectClick, for 10 seconds (Always)
Essentially, this suppresses if you attack, are hit by an enemy, or click a mission objective. Contrast that with Cloak of Fear, which lists:
+35 StealthRadius for 0.75s
Effect does not stack from same caster
Suppressed when MissionObjectClick, for 10 seconds (Always)
Essentially, this still suppresses, but only when you click an objective. Unlike Cloaking Device, it doesn't suppress when you attack or when you are hit, which means in combat, it doesn't suppress at all. I mean, clicking glowies is not a part of your average battle, is it?
How, when and which stealth suppresses has been something I've been trying to figure out for years. Once upon a time I asked, and that's when I was told "stealth toggles in defence sets don't suppress." Later, examining Red Tomax's City of Data, I came to the conclusion that, in PvP, Energy Cloak and Cloak of Darkness do not suppress in any way in combat. Experience with the powers seems to confirm this, as enemies who should have seen me but can't because I'm stealthed still don't see me once I start fighting,
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
I'm not a numbers person so I'm not even going to attempt it but here are a few of my observations over the years regarding 'armour' sets:
Scrappers and Brutes benefit more from the 'soft control' sets such as Dark. And from 'pure' Defence/Resistance sets, (i.e. Super Reflexes and, again, Dark) Of course anyone can successfully play any of the armours but the ones that proliferated from Scrappers/Brutes to Tanks (and in some respects Stalkers) seem to work better with the Primaries of those ATs.
Willpower, imho, is a fantastic Tanker set. I'm currently levelling a Claws/Willpower Brute and, shock horror, have respecced into Fitness instead of Tough/Weave etc due to Endurance issues. This might be because Claws is a much lower damage set (albeit Fury-building fiend) than the other Brute primaries so meant I was attacking more. A Willpower Tank I once played however could pretty much stand up to anything and for a long period of time with no Endurance issues.
Stalkers, with the exception of Ninjitsu, do get a bit of a rough deal. I must say I'd probably never choose a Repel power for a Stalker and playing as a Ninjitsu Stalker was incredibly good fun (especially once I'd gotten Blinding Powder which, coupled with Touch of Fear from the Dark Melee Primary, made EB fights more fun for me).
I also once rolled a Mind/Sonic controller who, for the most part, wasn't very much fun to play. She ended up as a bit of a buff bot and considering two of her major powers involved Sleep, wasn't particularly useful in large teams. I should imagine that Ice Control/Sonic or Force Field would have a similar problem with the disadvantage of not having any major attack powers until later in the game.
But all things considered I'd say that, unless you want a new kind of challenge, you don't have to take any of the sets/powers that are on offer and it's true that some sets gel together better than others.
Also there is, in some cases, a good reason why some powers within a set don't appear to be as powerful as they could be. My example there is Psychic Blast for Defenders. The first power in the Secondary (and you HAVE to take it) is Mental Blast. It does damage not worth worrying about, albeit psionic, and the animation is a little long. However the rest of the powers in the set are pretty damned awesome (especially Psionic Tornado) and with certain combinations of powers can prove devastating to enemies.
And, of course, Storm Summoning: Gale, which for Defenders is skippable but not for MMs, Corruptors or Controllers - It needs accuracy slotting which could be better spent elsewhere and it has a nasty tendency to draw aggro and split groups of enemies up when all you possibly wanted to do was get rid of the Freakshow Tank who had latched on to you. But again, the rest of Storm is pretty darned freaking awesome!
Quote:
That's why I suggested upgrading the melee class versions of Concealment: Stealth to be on par with Energy Cloak. I'm saying they should have the exact same option they do now, but their personal opinions and choices shouldn't affect others who want to tank. That way you won't have to pick Weave to rebalance your defense again. As for the taunt aura, at least you'd have the option. Did you get mad when villains were finally given Epic Pools just because "aw darn, now I have to respec out some of my moves because I have NEW ones to choose from!" Of course not, it's a benefit to have more options. That's what customization is all about. This game centers around the concept.|
Except you'd have to pick up a power to shore up the lost defense (it's 5% def to all once slotted and that is significant when you're trying to soft-cap, which I might add is easier for EA because of it). What ya gonna do with EA that has 5% less defense? Stick it in the taunt aura you're suggesting? Now I have to take the taunt aura. Shove the 5% defense in the other toggles? See? Told ya you'd have to rebalance the entire set for your change. Right now, you can choose to take Energy Cloak and get the defense or just get another defense toggle like weave which'll give the same amount of defense. Or you can get both. EA won't have issues running all those toggles. |
Quote:
|
As for set balance, that's a whole 'nother debate. Some sets just have other advantages than others. You may say WP is stronger than DA but who cares? DA is great! And when you have more than 1 DA on the team, they just make eachother GREATER, unlike WP. EA will probably be changed but not for the reason you're saying. Currently, EA has Conserve power. If EA is proliferated to Scrappers and Tankers, they'll need to replace Conserve Power with something else just like they did with Electric Armor. IMO, I hope it's a click like Energize but rather than a heal/+regen, I hope it's +resist (specifically to Psy) and recharges decently fast. |
Also Energy Aura was given AoE +HP heal in with their end draining move, whereas Electric Armor was given a similar effect in its conserve power move with a +Regen effect as well. The patch notes said they did this to balance the durability of those two sets with other sets who already had +HP heals. I personally felt my EA characters were more durable than my DA ones, and think even the smallest amount of this would not overdo it and make Dark just as comparable. It is a balance issue, since they have done it in the past to help power sets that didn't perform quite as well even if intended to perform differently. They didn't have to change the style in order to make the sets better, and that's all I'm proposing. Let old habits and styles remain, just give a more tank-specific approach as well.
More happy people means more money for the company.
Quote:
When was the last time anyone took repulse. Kins don't take it either. I've only ever seen it taken on concept toons.
|
Originally Posted by Archon099
Definitely a good point, Ironblade. Not everyone likes to follow the specific rules of the class, but the general consensus on melee classes is that most dislike knockback in favor of knockdown.
|
Quote:
The key to your DA scrapper being so durable is his primary set Broadsword. Parry/Divine Avalanche are incredible moves that can turn a scrapper into a tank. Roughly 15% unslotted defense that can stack up to 3 times and is the strength of Gambler's Cut. My Katana/SR scrapper was able to solo the Strigga Warriors mission with Heracles in (as an Elite Boss) with +1 and +2 lvl spawns, and he only got hit once... by Heracles right before he died, lol.| I use it to great effect on my BS/DA scrapper. It is an integral part of getting him to soft cap, which I have achieved. If you think DA is squishy, watch a DA that is softcapped to all positions and can heal to full from 1 HP in a crowd. |
When each application of Parry/Divine Avalanche is roughly like a stacking SR toggle to melee and lethal (so that means all close range, and a lot of long range, namely bullets), any armor set will become incredible. I have a BS/WP scrapper, and he can attest to being able to fully replace and outshine tankers without needing Taunt. He's hit by attacks so rarely that his regen rate from WP will send him up a good 10% health before he ever gets hit again. Alpha strikes are the only thing he doesn't handle better than a tank, but once those Parry's stack up, he's better. As Dark Armor, your Dark Regeneration move helps you recover from alpha strikes better than WP does, but I'm pretty satisfied with his current armor, lol.
My main beef with Dark Armor's survivability is when you don't have Parry/Divine Avalanche, you don't hold up quite as long as other armors. For example: Spine/DA vs. Spine/Regen or Spine/WP. I'm not saying the overall set sucks, just that it could use that tiny bit of love that Energy Aura/Electric Armor got recently with their heal effects added in. DA already has heals, but if it did even a small portion of +HP with that, it would help solidify it to be comparable.
Quote:
LOL, yeah, I take it for concept or when I am out of ideas. My kin/dark defender Deity of Chaos took it for both reasons. I was going to skip it until I planned out his build and realized I had an extra spot or two for powers and had no clue what to get. He used Siphon Speed, Inertial Reduction, and only needed the Pool power Hover to get around, so he didn't delve into pools much. He also already had a way to heal his health and endurance, so I didn't need Stamina and Health. Eventually I just had no other good options, so I use it in PvP (sometimes, rarely helps much, but it's there).
|
Originally Posted by brophog02
When was the last time anyone took repulse. Kins don't take it either. I've only ever seen it taken on concept toons.
|
Quote:
To be fair, if the didn't COST SO DAMN MUCH, I'd be much more inclined to take repulse powers and use them more often. I'm a great believe not in raw power, but in final worth. A power must be not just strong, but also cheap enough to be worth it, and I just don't think repulsion powers are worth the cost.|
Originally Posted by brophog02
When was the last time anyone took repulse. Kins don't take it either. I've only ever seen it taken on concept toons.
|
Now, Force Bubble, that's another matter entirely. It's roughly in the same boat, but it isn't nearly as costly.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by Arcanaville
Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.
|
Quote:
You act like AT modifiers are arbitrary numbers that were secretly underground deep in the core of the game and existed there forever, affecting random powers you choose.| Pool powers are identical for all archetypes. What makes the numbers come out different is AT modifiers, not a specific decision to make some powers better for certain ATs. Changing Stealth to work like Cloak of Darkness and Energy Cloak would be a significant and unprecedented departure from the existing system. This is the continuing problem with your reasoning: faulty assumptions backed up by incorrect numbers and misunderstood mechanics. |
Why do scrappers have a different modifier on their pool armor options than tanks and even defenders? Because the devs deliberately chose to make these numbers different. If you look way back through patch notes, it wasn't until well after the games release that these multipliers were incorporated, or at least made to affect pool powers. When the different archetypes were given their inherent abilities, the pool powers didn't work with all of them. This had to be altered to allow for it. I remember the patch notes when they changed it so that scrappers using melee pool powers got their crit bonus. I also remember when they changed pool attacks so that the scrapper melee damage multiplier was used instead of the base multiplier they began with because as they specifically said in those patch notes: we want to make scrappers better with pool attacks because they are a melee damage dealing class, and it would make more sense for them to be masters of melee pool attacks as well.
Those multipliers aren't just some arbitrary hidden tome on what is and ever will be. They are numbers imposed by the devs to balance classes in the event that they have access to the same type of moves. Defenders aren't just better at Leadership and Medicine than other classes just because the numbers say so; they are better because the devs gave them numbers to make them better. They pick and choose which classes get which numbers, and they have changed those numbers on several occasions. Look at the stalker changes a little while back (increased overall damage scale and HP scale at the same time as the change to their inherent power to make them crit more).
This is not faulty logic, misunderstood mechanics, or wrong numbers; it is fact. Just because my opinion on melee stealth is not your opinion doesn't make it an invalid one. I am merely asking that when querying the pool power's stats, in the event of a melee class, they could add/remove some qualities from the pool power Stealth. I'm a programmer myself and know ways of doing this in programs and have done it on several occasions. The easiest way would be to make the initial qualities/effects of Stealth contain whatever all the classes will get, then upon accessing the power, class is taken into account (as it is now) applying multipliers and adding non-suppression and an end cost reducing multiplier for melee classes. Not impossible, just different. It's easier than most of their recent changes have been.
I'm not claiming I know exactly how they implemented pool powers, but honestly, neither do you. You know that when you click certain buttons, certain things happen, but you don't have to know all the details of what's happening in the background. It's called abstraction (or information hiding) in software design. You don't know how your character's name is stored. Is it a null-terminated array of unicode characters? Is it a unicode character linked list? Is it an instance of a string class? Frankly, it doesn't matter as long as when you type chat or someone clicks on your character, the right name shows up. They could completely revamp how something is done and you will never know as long as it still implements the same way to the end user. They kept telling us that as the game was currently implemented, they could NOT change power animation to be customizable (I read Back Alley Brawler's thread on why they couldn't do it). They told us that for quite some time, even back when Statesman was still here. But because so many people wanted it they put it in. It took a while and they had to completely redesign how powers worked, but does your radiation blast act any different now that they did that? There was a huge overhaul to the old power animation system, but nothing ultimately changed in our use of that system. For all you know, every time you click a power, a leprechaun dances over and paints the power before it's animated. User's don't need to know the "how". If implementation feels exactly the same to them, they may never know the change even took place. I can guarantee that there have been changes to the game that you weren't told in patch notes simply because you would never even know they took place anyway.
Quote:
Granted there is a special enhancement you can use to make up for that shortcoming, I would have to agree with you. If the stealth effect was dropped from that move and knockback protection was put in its place, I'd be thrilled too, lol. Save me the slot to make a different power better.
|
Originally Posted by Sigium
Tell ya' what? I'd trade Dark Armor's Stealth power for some Knockback Protection in a New York minute.
|
Quote:
I did check it. It means exactly what I said it meant. Thank you for the numbers that prove my point. Tankers get a 5% bonus, whereas Scrappers get a 3.75% bonus, and Blasters get a 3.5% bonus (all base values, no enhancing). My point was that in the end different classes get different benefits based on what the devs wanted them to get in order to maintain balance.... *points above at your numbers* Are you not also seeing the damage dealers having less defenses from pool powers than the Tanker/Defender/Controller values? I'm looking at YOUR statistics here. The devs chose to make it so that DPS classes didn't benefit as much from armor. You have statistical proof of it right up there in your numbers. Yes the power has a base effect that disregards class, but that effect is ALTERED depending on what class chooses it, and you think it's weird that I'm asking for another alteration on a different pool power in order to make more people satisfied? You're acting like if gay marriage was legalized it would mean you would have to marry a man, lol. This is giving both sides what they want without taking anything away from either. Your personal opinion isn't the ONLY opinion on melee stealth, and shouldn't be the ONLY way to go.
| A Scrapper has a Melee_Buff_Def mod of 0.075, a Blaster has a mod of 0.07, and a Tanker has a mod of 0.1. This means a Blaster would get 0.5*0.07 = 0.035 = 3.5%, a Scrapper would get 0.5*0.075 = 0.0375 = 3.75% and a Tanker would get 0.5*0.1 = 0.05 = 5%. Check it! |
Quote:
Oh, absolutely. Repulsion moves are horribly inefficient.|
Originally Posted by Samuel_Tow
To be fair, if the didn't COST SO DAMN MUCH, I'd be much more inclined to take repulse powers and use them more often. I'm a great believe not in raw power, but in final worth. A power must be not just strong, but also cheap enough to be worth it, and I just don't think repulsion powers are worth the cost.
Now, Force Bubble, that's another matter entirely. It's roughly in the same boat, but it isn't nearly as costly. |
I can't seem to find the post, but someone had mentioned Sonic Resonance: Sonic Repulsion. As if Repulse/Repel/Repulsion Field weren't limited in cost vs. benefit to begin with, making a version that you can't even use unless it's anchored to a teammate is just ridiculous, lol.
Force Bubble doesn't cost as much and pushes enemies back more reliably, but I still feel it suffers from a lot of the issues these moves do. Great for cramming into corners, but as a final power... meh, I could take it or leave it. I consider pretty much every other lvl 32 defender primary move to be better. That's not to say my Plant/FF controller won't get it someday, just that if they offered a tier 9 move that was on par with other defender final moves, I'd probably take it in a heartbeat, even if it meant leaving Force Bubble out. (Personally I've suggested replacing it with a click buff that creates a shield around a teammate that must be destroyed before they can take damage, or essentially a +HP move castable on teammates, but that's just me, lol.)
Oh, a new strange power:
Devices: Taser Dart
Decent ranged stun... how many people actually get it? I'm just curious. I mean, I know on paper the power isn't half bad, but with most of the other moves the set has access to, I can't remember anyone particularly looking forward to the power or ever getting it. Those I have seen get it end up respec'ing it out for something better.
I'm not knocking on the power's usefulness, lol, don't get me wrong. I'm just wondering how many actually get it and KEEP it, lol.
Quote:
As would I.
|
Originally Posted by Sigium
Tell ya' what? I'd trade Dark Armor's Stealth power for some Knockback Protection in a New York minute.
|
Quote:
The original purpose of this thread was to state powers we think are broken or out of place. My example being Stalker Energy Armor Repulse.|
Originally Posted by Leo_G
PS: I'm not disagreeing with you because I don't like you. I'm disagreeing with you because I don't much care for your idea (is there an actual idea in this thread?). It's just forum debate, nothing to take overly serious.
|
Archon's was tanker stealth.
You can discuss the powers mentioned, but its quickly becoming a NAH UH! YOU'RE WRONG! thread.
I know how the mechanics work and I know the numbers. Forgive me if you feel that 5% suppressed by half to 2.5% (tanker stealth) minus 3.75% suppressed by half to 1.88% (scrapper/brute stealth) yielding a total difference of 0.62% defense when fighting is an amazing bonus for those tankers over brutes and scrappers. What would they ever do without it? Really, if you are going to nit pick, how about you go after the other people who have messed up their info (and maybe the next time by more than 0.62%, good heavens). On a couple occasions you had, samuel had, and a couple other posts by others. Seems like some very selective nits to pick. Enough trying to justify it, lol.
The sets are not completely balanced. I've used every armor set in the game up until having access to every power. I've used Dark Armor with a scrapper and have a rougly equal level Regen scrapper, Willpower scrapper, Invuln scrapper, and SR scrapper. Dark Armor does not last as long in a fight, and he has this stealth power everyone raves about. He has both CoF and OG, using them when applicable. I also have several high level brutes with Energy Aura, Shield Defense, Willpower, and Fiery Aura, and the Energy Aura one can't tank. It's not that he can't take hits, but he can't hold aggro. It's the only armor set brutes get without an AoE aggro grabbing toggle. Before you say "SR doesn't!", look it up, it does for brutes, so obviously they intend for them to at least have this capability. If you honestly feel that every single power set in the game is completely and perfectly balanced, not only would you be wrong, but you would also be prolonging the problem to try to bash any idea that remotely attempts to help with balance.
Anyone who has used WP knows it is one of the most godly tanks ever, even if a brute is the tank in question. Heck, my WP scrapper can replace most tanks and do better. Energy Aura can't even attempt to stand up to it at tanking. You call that balanced. Not all tank in the same way I'll admit, but EA doesn't quite accomplish tanking without taunt slotted with lots of recharge (since it's your only means of mass aggro gathering, no toggle aura).
-------------------------
Again with the hostility, lol. Seriously people, there is such thing as an open mind and a smile once and a while. Contrary to what you may think, it can be beneficial to not freak out on someone for voicing their opinions. Maybe someone did it to you one day and you felt the need to vent by doing it to someone else, I won't presume to know exactly why, but it's really not necessary. I've even thanked these attackers for corrections to things that changed during my break from the game over the summer, but still catch more hostility for hostility's sake. I left middle school over a decade ago and I'm not looking to revisit, thanks.
Have I trashed any of your ideas in any threads you were discussing? I have only found a total of four different ideas proposed in this thread:
- Stalker/Energy Aura/Repulse
- Tank (not necessarily tankER) Stealth powers
- Knockback on MM pets instead of Knockdown (especially in the case of Necromancy, which has melee pets chasing those tossed by the lich)
- Tankers getting AoE sleep moves in Epic Pools
(forgive me if I forgot anyone, these were just off the top of my head)
None seem to be proposed by the people dissecting my every post to try to make it out to be meaningless despite not even understanding the concept. Then the moment I reply to one of these ideas posted, the trolls descend yet again to attack my support of their idea. They never attacked the original poster really, but my I must be a tasty morsel. Forgive me for treading on your bridge.