Problem/Strange Powers

Checked my /EA brute and my /Storm corruptor...

Again, you are missing my point. According to that picture posted recently they did change melee class stealthing (thank you, Leo G, I was not aware of that change, but that's good news in some cases). Even if they did change it, it is worse for a tank than I had originally thought. Since it no longer suppresses for Tankers or tanking Brutes, it now means that unless your team has non-suppressing stealth as well, they will have aggro that you don't. Heck, I'd rather my tank's aggro radius was bigger than have it be smaller than the rest of my team's.

Here's the scenario you seem to be in favor of: Two enemy spawns are too close together, so you turn on Cloak of Darkness and charge the first one. You don't aggro the second. This is where you are stopping and saying it's good. Now hold on a second. The scrappers, stalkers, dominators, and whoever else might come into range, are NOT stealthed by your Cloak of Darkness. Even if they DO have Concealment: Stealth, it will suppress and leave them visible to the other spawn. But the tank won't suppress, meaning his aggro radius will be smaller than that of his team. This is not good for a tanker. My earlier opinion was that at worst it would be annoying, and at best it would be unhelpful. Now at worst it would be the death of frailer teammates. Don't get me wrong, this is good for scrappers and non-tanking brutes, but for a tank it's bad.

As for the thing about MMs without forcefield, I already mentioned that Dark Miasma can be used to debuff in place of using armor to tank, which was a point I made in an earlier post, and you still chose to bash on it despite now supporting the idea yourself. :-/ I'm starting to think you are trying to be belligerent here. I merely made a point of noting an issue with giving a tank a stealth move instead of a tank move. I'm not here to start a war. I don't want to dissect post after post to trash on ideas. I'm not calling your opinions or ideas asinine, and would appreciate the same respect in return.

I'm not saying to use stuff on what it isn't meant for, and I'm not simply saying don't use stuff for what it isn't useful on. You are oversimplifying my point again.

What I mean is that you can't call a move that debuffs accuracy as well as interrupts enemy attacks with fear useless. For the record, I almost always have little white ghostly faces popping up on the enemies around me, and even if I don't, the acc debuff is better than the defense buff of Cloak of Darkness by 50%. If the disorient of Oppressive Gloom doesn't proc, it still hurts and does nothing additional. I love both moves and use both moves, but they have their purpose in different places. From my experience I mitigate more damage with the fear aura than with the disorient one, but the disorienting one is cheaper.

I'm still not quite sure why this was an issue, since I was merely trying to defend Dark Armor while still asking for it to get just a little more fluff to make it comparable in effectiveness to other armor sets. You seem to keep attacking Dark Armor and frankly, if that's the route you want to go, by all means run with it. Maybe they will be more likely to improve it if the set seems worse than it is. I don't wanna fight, hugs all around, I just want Dark Armor to get a little love like Energy Aura and Electric Armor received recently.

The same was claimed of Brutes because they also said they didn't want there to be any one specific role to any one class and wanted soloing to be more even. Brutes were also intended to have tanking capabilities not only by the words of the developers, but by the powers and power changes they were given:
- Brute: Primary: Taunt (not Confront)
- Brute: Super Reflexes: Evasion (added an AoE taunt effect, unlike scrapper/stalker versions)
- High threat level

Ahh... BUT:
1. The tanker will have Gauntlet going with every hit.
2. The tanker will have a taunt aura, most likely, also increasing aggro on him,
3. The tanker may have Taunt itself (which I find great for that situation, personally - separate groups by taunting and breaking LOS as opposed to rushing in.)

The aggro the Tanker's generating just by doing what he does naturally should be enough to keep attention on him 'til he hits the aggro cap (and beyind, really,) despite the bit of stealth from CoD. Stealth is not an "aggro eraser." Placate (and Superspeed - look at your combat attributes, you'll see your threat level going down with it on) are, really. So even if they do turn to attack the squishies, it's not going to be the whole group - and they'll likely only get a shot off before turning back to you. (Barring blasters nukingthe spawn... in which case, who cares what the mobs are angry about, they've now got a mouthful of dirt. )

Plus, of course, if the tank's worried about it - now that he has the spawn further away from the other - he can turn off COD. I personally tend to find my DA tank more of a toggle managing playstyle than other tanks. I'm switching between COF, OG and the like frequently.

See my Guides and Tutorials

True. I know stealth isn't an aggro eraser, but it does limit the aggro radius. I just feel the tanker could benefit more from a move that has more to offer than a smaller radius, since having a smaller aggro radius than your teammates can cause problems.

My DA scrapper changes toggles all the time too, and I know that's part of how the set works, but I feel that there are far better moves in the armor set arsenals than just a minor stealth and defense buff. Even auto powers offer more. True Grit, Dodge, etc., all have more or better bonuses, no end cost, and don't cause aggro issues.

Once enemies are aggroed, stealth doesn't matter. And if another spawn aggroes? Taunt them. Punch them. Run by them. Anything. And, again, Brutes don't HAVE to tank. They can also solo, and for solo, these powers are very useful. If you're going to talk about tanking Brutes, then kindly avoid extrapolating a power's little use to them into a power's little use in general. Just because stealth is less useful for a tanking Brute than for a soloing one doesn't mean it's a useless power.

Personal attacks will get you nowhere. You said SOME Masterminds can tank. I told you ALL Masterminds can tank. Not just Forcefields, not just Dark Miasma. Storm can, Traps can, Poison can, and I'm pretty sure Thermal and Pain can. It's not just one primary or one secondary. It's not even just a few primaries and a few secondaries. It's ALL primaries and ALL secondaries.

The disorient in Oppressive Gloom doesn't "proc." It is applied on EVERY tick of the power against every enemy it hits, the same as Cloak of Fear's effects. If a tick misses a target, that means no fear and no to-hit debuff. And, by the way, the to-hit debuff lasts as long as the power's cycle, so if you miss one cycle, you lose to debuff. If either power misses a tick, you lose the effect. Only Oppressive Gloom has an accuracy of 1.0, whereas Cloak of Fear has an accuracy of 0.67, which means it will miss a LOT more and require a LOT more slotting.

I never said Cloak of Fear was useless. It has its uses, but there has not been a situation that I've found where both Cloak of Fear AND Oppressive Gloom were needed together, and I've found almost no situation where Cloak of Fear did more than Oppressive Gloom. Yes, it debuffs to-hit... If it hits. And a resistance-based self-protection set, fat lot of good that does you. It helps, sure, but not nearly as much as you say.

I'm not "attacking" Dark Armour. I'm pointing out that Cloak of Fear is a terrible power for the set. I actually enjoy Dark Armour a lot WITHOUT Cloak of Fear. I still don't subscribe to the notion that was said earlier - that it's a squishy set, but I also do agree with the thread in general - certain powers just seem awfully out of place. Think back to the power's original functionality. Before I4, "Fear" used to make enemies run away, which was a very strong effect. Now it just makes them cower while still being able to shoot at you. They were a lot more lenient with the Afraid effect than they are with the Terrorize effect these days, which is why Cloak of Fear is as gutted as it is. Seriously, 0.67 base accuracy? That's ABOMINABLE! Just that on its face makes the power terrible, and then you have that huge cost on to of it all, in a set that's already loaded with toggles and very costly to begin with. Bad move all around.

Some powers are good, some powers are bad, and some powers are questionable. I will freely admit that I see Repulsion Field clone powers as next to useless. Their cost is prohibitive and their effect largely useless. And I've tried that on a Blaster, so I'm not exaggerating. Generally speaking, powers with stupendous costs are a bad idea unless they are INCREDIBLY strong, which few toggles are. Focused Accuracy used to be, when it could punch through anything, but when they switched it to accuracy slotting, it's not just mostly a minor aid with a very steep cost.

"Cost per enemy" powers are just as bad. Something like Oppressive Gloom costs me 5 hit points per enemy, yet something like Repulsion Field costs me 1 endurance point per enemy. Well, my Scrapper has 1300 hit points, but only 100 endurance points. That endurance bar is also taxed with supporting other toggles, feeding other powers and resisting endurance drain, while, if I play my cards right, my hit points bar isn't in much danger. It doesn't make sense to make powers THIS costly for THIS little effect. Repulsion Field vs. Force Bubble is a good example. Why would I want to pay many times the cost for a much smaller bubble that knocks back, when I can pay many times less for a much bigger bubble that pushes? I've seen the arguments, and I never saw them justify the cost.

By the same token, however, just because you don't like a power doesn't make it BAD and in need of fixing. Stealth, for instance, in the several Brute sets it appears in. Stealth has its uses to Brutes. They may not be the uses you want, but they're not aberrant to Brute play in general. I can see how it may not be as useful on a Tanker, but really, only one set even has that, and it's there for thematic reasons. Dark Armour has enough taunt auras to make up for it. Unless you can give me a good argument why the power is useless to the AT in general, or has very little use in most situations or, as the case may be, has uses, but another power in the same powerset does the same thing better and for lest cost, we end up with powers we don't like, not necessarily "problem" powers.

I'm not married to having Stealth for Brutes and Tankers. I find it useful, but I won't exactly curl up and cry if it went. But that's by far the least of our worries when powers still cost cosmic amounts both in terms of investment and in terms of resources, yet do so little in return.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I would just like to take a second to say that I also really like the Dark Armor set. The only point I've tried to make about Cloak of Fear, which many people like, is the fact that it has the same accuracy as Oppressive Gloom, but even if it's status effect doesn't overpower their defenses to it (stun/fear protection), CoF at least offers an accuracy debuff. OG does nothing but hurt you if it faces immunity. This alone gives CoF more applications. Also, Dark Regen is not a regeneration bonus, it's a heal. +Regen is not a part of the power, and even if OG is providing 30 DPS, the enemies attack at maybe once every 4 seconds or so for 100 damage, making about 25 DPS. Even the fastest melee attacks aren't often less than 3 second recharge, and jaegers are no different. If your DA scrapper/tanker/brute has a regen rate of 30 hp/sec, then it would be effectively reducing your regen rate to zero. That same effect would require 2 stacks of regen debuffs from Kinetics: Transference. All I'm saying is that CoF at least has a fallback plan and more than one effect. I'm not denouncing the use of either and in fact use and alternate between both depending on the situation.

My argument against stealth for Brutes and Tankers is that they cost large amounts of endurance for such a small effect. It costs as much as any typical armor power (and with the number of toggles in Dark Armor, this can be an issue). It also offers stealth ratings on par with a pool power. Even Medicine: Aid Other can't stand up to Empathy: Heal Other. It's interruptibile, slower at recharging, and costs more end, only to offer the same amount healed. Heal Other is a drastic improvement over this move. (Imagine the Empath being unable to heal because of Snow Storm interrupting it 24/7).

The only benefit that the armor set stealth moves (not referring to Hide here) have over Concealment: Stealth is that they don't suppress. Sure the cost is minimally less and the minuscule speed debuff isn't there, but you hardly notice those. They made it so that Pool powers have class-specific changes, like Leadership buffs are better for defenders, Tough/Weave are better for classes that don't already have armor, and pool attacks can get scrapper/stalker crits, Scourge bonuses, Containment bonuses, etc. Would it be so hard to make it so that in the event an armor-using class wanted Stealth, they could merely take the pool version and have the end cost reduced (to help with armor end costs), the suppression removed, and the speed debuff removed to be on par with Cloak of Darkness and Energy Cloak?

This would give melee classes the same option of functionality without having to limit their power choices within their Primary and Secondary sets. Then sneaky brutes could be sneaky, and tanky brutes could be tanky, and everyone would be happy! Besides, that's the whole reason Pool powers were put in the game: to allow personalization of a build beyond it's normal potential, like being sneaky, healing, flying, etc.

Note: use of bold is mine, not Archon's.

CoF's accuracy is not the same as OG. CoF is base accuracy .67, OG is base 1.0. That is a significant difference, and definitely not "the same".

Originally Posted by Dispari I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.

Not because only "I" want it, but because it doesn't suit the class's primary purpose in the sense of tanks, and it doesn't provide enough of a benefit for how late it comes in the set. I am all in favor of them doing stuff to allow diversity, but that's what POOL powers are for. Pool powers have different effectiveness based on the class that chooses them. Why not give Concealment: Stealth this same benefit? Make it so if a melee class takes Stealth, it doesn't suppress, doesn't slow you down, and costs a tad less to make up for armor toggle costs. They made Leadership buffs better with defenders and melee pool attacks capable of scrapper crits and tanker gauntlet. Why not do the same for Stealth to keep the people who WANT stealth happy while still giving the people who want their build to perform for another primary purpose happy as well?

Is that so wrong? Heck, they could even throw in graphical effects for stealth in the costume creator so you can make it look the same as CoD or EC. Move the beneficial effects like +perception and immobilize protection over to a different Dark Armor power and add a more beneficial power to the build.

This would give melee classes the same option of functionality without having to limit their power choices within their Primary and Secondary sets. Then sneaky brutes could be sneaky, and tanky brutes could be tanky, and everyone would be happy! Besides, that's the whole reason Pool powers were put in the game: to allow personalization of a build beyond it's normal potential, like stealthing, healing, flying, etc.

Rephrased to: "...but because *I don't think* it suits the class' primary purpose in the sense of tanks, and *I* don't think it provides enough of a benefit for how late it comes in the set."

It's been said to death what the powers can do and different uses for them. Now it's solely on your opinion what works for your playstyle.

And guess what? Stealth is already more effective for Armor classes because it offers *more armor* which is the only differencing effect they should have. Just because a Tanker or Scrapper have more potent armors doesn't mean they should have better stealth than a Blaster or Controller. The only AT that should be able to use stealth better is Stalker and *guess what*? They already can because they have the ability to stack Stealth with other stealth powers.

That a Tanker can use Gauntlet or Scrappers can use Crits with pool attacks has nothing to do with them using melee attacks better. That's just their inherent ability. That the attacks had to be mechanically changed to incorporate the inherent is a limitation on how powers are in the game, *not* some thematic decision that they're just better with them than others.

That a Defender can use Leadership powers better is simple AT modifiers. Every buff power, pool or otherwise, is more effective for them.

IMO, asking to make Stealth better on a Tanker or Brute is like asking for Hover and Fly to be better on a Blaster. WHY!?

Why so hostile? :-/ I'm trying to be nice here and voice an opinion and you are acting like I'm trying to convert you to another religion and condemn you to hell or something.

Concealment: Stealth does NOT provide more armor for scrappers/tankers/brutes. It provides about 2.5% defense and 35 ft suppressing PvE stealth and a minor speed debuff. To all classes. It has NO benefit for melee armor classes. The numbers are exactly the same. Tough provides 15% base smash/lethal resists to classes with primary or secondary armor sets and provides about 20% base resistance to controllers/defenders/blasters. THAT is a difference intended to help a build that doesn't normally get something.

What I'm saying is that if YOU want stealth, YOU can choose the pool power. I don't want them putting weird versions of Fly and Teleport into my power sets in place of moves my character class is meant for. Why not take out all the good AoE damage from your blaster and put in a move EVERYONE can choose at will at level 6 and up. That's just retarded, and that's why I am calling it stupid for them to leave what is essentially a pool power in a high-tier armor power space when you could give someone, I don't know, maybe some real armor. If I can almost duplicate the effects at level 6 with ANY class, why make it a late-game move for one particular class? Why don't we just take out your Stalker's last melee attack and give him a glorified Aid Other? That's the level of stupidity in stealth armor.

I'm not saying that my opinion trumps all and you should lose your option to do what YOU may want to do. I'm not going to stop you from giving your tanker Aid Other or your Mastermind Provoke, but at this point you are saying that because YOU want a certain thing in your build, EVERYONE has to suffer through it, lol.

My solution to the problem is something that would give YOU exactly what you want/already have while giving people who like other play styles that option, which is why pools exist. So YOU can do what you want, and I can do what I want, and no one has to be forced into an unnecessary play style or forced to give up a power option to suit the minority of builds who deviate for their own amusement. I love changing up my class's purpose as much as the next guy, but it shouldn't be forced into our primary and secondary power sets.

Again, I still don't understand where the hostility comes from. You act like I told you what to name your firstborn under penalty of death, when I was merely posing a solution to make everyone happy. "Everyone want some cake?" "YOU SUCK! DIE! Don't force your cake on me!" Sweet jeezus, let's get along, lol.

I'm amused that he doesn't even take the time to touch on my comment. I have completely neutered his whole argument, since it's based off a false claim that the two powers begin equally (at the same base accuracy), which they do not. But facts like that don't belong here! Logic has no place here, just "something feels wrong with this"!

Originally Posted by Dispari I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.

Again, one single melee set has access to a fear power, and that's Dark Melee. Considerably more melee sets have access to a stun. Despite its natural conceptual cohesion, I'd still call Dark/Dark an outlier much in the same way as I'd call AR/Dev an outlier when it comes to discussions of blasters and Build Up/Aim chains.

As you said - upping its accuracy or lowering its cost is the only way I could ever justify using this power on top of Murky Cloud, Obsidian Shield and... What was the other one called? That, and Cloak of Darkness. It costs a lot and its control is unreliable. Not to mention the fact that Terrorize effects, despite what they are, cause enemies to run away often.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

LOL, sorry for that oversight. Mine is the same on my character because of my Acc IO I put into CoF. I was quoting that instead of the base, my bad.

A couple of things - a heal, when cast as soon as it recharges (presumably, because you need it) is equivalent to effective regeneration in many situations. Granted, if you die before it recharges, it doesn't work, and if you're not hurt badly enough and the heal overflows your hit points bar, you waste some of that. But if you're not hurt badly enough to need it, then the problem isn't as severe.

Secondly, what I gave was DPS, e.i. Damage Per Second, not damage per attack cycle. Attack cycles don't really matter all that much in the long run, not past a couple of cycles, anyway. Their combined DPS does. I don't remember how I came to the conclusion that five minions would yield ~200 DPS, I'd have to rummage around in my PMs if you really want me to. Point is, it's not nearly as bad as you make it out to be. And I've used it a lot. It just isn't as bad.

And, yes, I will concede that Cloak of Fear has its uses. But for Cloak of Fear to be effective, you pretty much have to six-slot it, not to mention sinking a power pick into it. Oppressive Gloom is good to go with its single default slot. I have not, to this day, found a situation in which I need BOTH Cloak of Fear AND Oppressive Gloom, and for the most part, the situations where either is needed almost completely overlap. I've never seen a good reason to have them both, and if I have to choose between them, I'll always choose the power which is more efficient in regards to the effect it has. Cloak of Fear isn't (quite so) bad in and of itself. It's within context of the rest of the set that it represents a problem.

You're off the mark here. Firstly, defence set stealth powers are considerably better than Stealth from Concealment. For one, they have no movement speed penalty. For another, they don't suppress, either their stealth radius or their defence.

Secondly, the reason pool powers have different values for different ATs has nothing to do with a decision to make them more or less useful to each AT, and all to do with AT modifiers. Defenders and Controllers have higher modifiers for support and control powers than, say, Scrappers, and Scrappers and Tankers have higher defence and resistance modifiers than Blasters.

Also, you still sell the KEY utility of stealth short - the ability to pick and choose your battles. Being melee does not automatically mandate you to tank, and if you don't want to tank, this can be very convenient. It allows you to position before you are spotted, it keeps you from being overwhelmed by extra aggro, and it prevents you from being spotted by enemies you didn't see in time. All of those are very useful, especially solo.

See, this is part of the problem and much of why I'm so anal about these things. If we're going to talk about fixing purportedly problem powers, we really need to stick to the facts as close as we can and, yes, indulge in numbers very, very much. Distinguishing which powers really ARE bad, and which powers we just don't like can be problematic.

Originally Posted by Arcanaville Samuel_Tow is the only poster that makes me want to punch him in the head more often when I'm agreeing with him than when I'm disagreeing with him.

I said PRECISELY this in my posts. Perhaps you should have read them. This was the whole point of my post saying that they should be changed to accommodate this issue.

This would make sense if they made Tough/Weave offer better stats for Scraps/Tanks/Brutes, but they didn't. They changed the powers to benefit some classes more than others because they would be overpowered on some. They made Leadership better for support classes because it's their job and because a scrapper offering the same bonus would be not only survivable and damage dealing, but would now have buffing to add to his stellar repertoire. Look at Epic Pools. People complain that scrappers have some of the worst moves compared to others. Why? They already have the best of both worlds: damage with armor. There isn't much they CAN'T do besides ranged moves and support.

Controllers on the other hand have amazing Epic Pool powers. Why? They have no armor and low damage (in most cases, no nitpicking please, mine do damage just fine, but they have few "purely attack moves"). So what epics did they get? Blaster moves and Tanker moves. Now check what they get benefits to in pools. Tough and Weave offer them more stats than Tanks and Scraps. Why? Because those guys already get armor. Pools were not made to be better for some classes simply to support what they are good at; they were also tweaked to make some better at things they AREN'T good at. They gave controllers improved pool powers in almost all areas because of this. Better Tough/Weave and better Leadership (a tad under defenders). Pools were altered for BALANCE IN GENERAL. Not for any one particular rule.

My point about changing Concealment: Stealth for melee classes follows this idea and the idea that since melee class stealth moves don't suppress, they obviously DON'T WANT them to. I am merely asking them to do what they ALREADY did in a way that won't cause problems for others.

You will still have stealthy brutes and tanks, and the people who want to tank will have their durable tanks and brute, and everyone will be happy. I've never seen such resistance to an idea with no negative side-effects. You're happy. I'm happy. Do you hate being happy???

Shadowfall offers both fear resistance and protection (mag 3.7 something), and Steamy Mist offers both confuse resistance and protection (same magnitude protection). I checked the numbers. I forget the exact numbers, but they do offer both duration resistance and magnitude protection if you scroll to the bottom of the detailed stats for the power.

Stealth Radius does not affect your Threat rating*. Ergo, stealth powers (whether they suppress or don't) do not affect your ability to tank a spawn. When you engage with an enemy they start ignoring your stealth radius and pay attention to your threat rating, as do their buddies in the same spawn (though your threat rating to them is not necessarily the same as your threat rating to the first; but that's the case even if you don't have stealth).

Stealth does two things for a tank:
1) Makes it more likely that you get to hit them first (stealthy Foot Stomp > alpha strike)
2) Makes it less likely that you'll get additional spawns to join the fray (which could be dangerous to you or your team)

And, with respect to the second advantage, if you do want an extra spawn, you can still attack them and they'll ignore your stealth. So, having unsuppressed stealth is strictly superior to having suppressed stealth, or no stealth. The only possible disadvantage to stealth is that you won't get a second spawn to attack you, which you can work around by simply attacking the second spawn first.



* [Group Invisibility] does reduce your Threat rating (by reducing your Threat Level stat, which is a part of the Threat rating calculation), but that's an effect of the power, not the stealth. The same applies to [Super Speed], though the -threat from SS suppresses while the -threat from GI does not.

Sorry, I've been sick lately and had to med up so I can go to work/school so I'm a tad irritable. I'm not 'real life' hostile, just 'forum' hostile.

So far, you've been misinformed about a lot of other stuff so maybe you should show your sources? Because as far as I know, for Tankers, stealth gives base 5% defense, for Scrappers and Brutes, it's like 3% and for Blasters it's 2.5%.

And for tough, I *know* it doesn't give 15% resistance for a Blaster. It's more like 11%for them and 15% for Tankers. Defenders and controllers get Tanker numbers because I'd wadger they have the same AT modifiers for self buffs too.

I don't see what you're wanting here. You do realize all the armor sets are balanced with and around the powers they currently have. If you're suggesting they change Concealment's Stealth into what DA and EA have and then replace those powers with something else, they'd have to rebalance the whole set. You want them to chop off some resists from Murky Cloud and stick them in another toggle/click?

As of now, you have the choice to pick the power or choose something else. If you rebalanced those sets, now you have to choose that power to get the numbers DA has to offer *on top of* the players that wanted DA's stealth now must waste a pool pick.

If you're going to get up in arms about how powers work, please take the time to understand how the game works first.

Originally Posted by Dispari I don't know why Dink thinks she's not as sexy as Jay was. In 5 posts she's already upstaged his entire career.

That's sort of trumped by the fact not all melee sets have Stuns yet *everyone* has fear available to them thanks to the presence pool.

As for the costs, well that's sort of the set's weakness. But it's not always necessary to run all those toggles. If the enemy only does lethal/smashing and energy (like Freaks) then you don't need everything. If you're fighting things with retarded -def debuffs that may be auto-hit (CoT quicksand) then the defense and -ToHit aren't going to help. If the enemy is resistant to stun then why run OG? It's more about toggle management, like has been said earlier.