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I am going to bet New Dawn is going to consider this over thinking it. For many it wouldn't necessarily have to matter what type of Scrapper you are but whether or not you are making up for the Scrapper you are not, at the right times. In order to have enough to do this at the right times like New Dawn says, you must know your limitations. If you are a regen who has failed to be first in, then don't be first in. If the tree has killed you before then leave the front of it for others. SRs can get the job done without defeat working on this basis which makes them as good as any.
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Originally Posted by Aliana Blue
Maybe I'm biased (well, okay, I'm hugely biased), but Actin, my DM/Inv, stands at 56.5% S/L and 51.5% E/N defense when 10 enemies are in range, i.e., after a bane summon by Recluse, and is without a doubt ahead in terms of self-healing (Dull Pain + Siphon Life). I think I could probably cram a bit more defense for those two categories in the build if I ignore Fire/Cold def and/or remove a bit of recharge (or drop a fortune in a PvP IO). Plus the alleged Shielders with grant cover and/or manoeuvres, I don't see a /SR scrapper tanking Recluse much better than her.
As far as GW goes, Unyielding + Unstoppable puts one at 27.6 mez protection, an Escape gives 20 for 90 seconds (so you'd need four), and with 8 scrappers at the softcap beating the snot out of her at full tilt I believe it should be possible to drop her before unstoppable runs out. Why bother with Stimulants?  |
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In a single attack it isn't for anyone but that attack recharges fast.
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Originally Posted by Kahlan_
Something that occurred to me: How devastating would Recluse's end drain/recovery debuff be for an invuln scrapper? If I recall they get some resistance to it, but I don't know if it would be enough. Worth carrying a couple of blues in case this hits?
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Dullpain and Passives shouldn't be enough to survive the hold.
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Originally Posted by Shred_Monkey
Actually.. I don't think the Invul scrapper needs to avoid the hold. with dull pain and resists you'll live through it. The issue would be holding agro for the duration of the hold, and if all the other scrappers are soft capped, it's probably safe for one of them to have agro for a few seconds until the invul can begin taunting again.
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No, they won't survive GW's hold... an Invuln TANK will not survive the hold unless there's an Emp who's on the ball to nail you with several heals while you're floating in the air. I don't know what the exact damage from the hold is offhand, but it's DOT so the one shot code doesn't apply and it will kill a tank with 3,212 HP. It'll even kill that tank after a single heal other from an emp.|
Originally Posted by kokuryu_EU
Dullpain and Passives shouldn't be enough to survive the hold.
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I've only seen two options for handling her, either soft cap defense and gamble that the hold won't hit... usually a pretty good gamble... or stack enough mez protection buffs to be immune to the MAG 100 hold.
The earlier idea about 8 Shield scrappers is interesting... you could just zerg the entire STF with impunity. You wouldn't even need a taunter for LR, just ignore him while you kill the towers since everyone should be way over the soft cap for him. My SG rolled up a group of 4 shield scrappers as a static team... once we hit 28 and had Grant Cover we were all soft capped; at 50 we're pushing 110% defense to all positions with just 4 of us. Maybe use a few oranges until the red tower drops... One with the Shield would be beneficial here as well.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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Don't be someone who has only ever seen or told of two options, be someone who can think of more options. There are always more options.
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Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
I've only seen two options for handling her, either soft cap defense and gamble that the hold won't hit... usually a pretty good gamble... or stack enough mez protection buffs to be immune to the MAG 100 hold.
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
I recant my /SR suggestion in favor of Shields. 7 Grant Covers stacked (3 Slotted 50 IOs) gives an amazing 91% defense to all positions. The defense debuff resistance is 13.84% for everyone in range, so 8 of them will give you the debuff resist cap, making recluse's 60% (about) debuff actually do about 3% (if my math is correct). Even with that, you'd have more than enough defense to be softcapped against even Recluse's 75% total tohit. With Tough and every Shield power with res enhanced to ED cap, you'd have about 69% S/L and 50% to everything else (but Psi, but that isn't an STF issue). Toss in OWTS and your S/L is capped and about 65% res to everything else.
Playing around with some set bonuses (5x 5% recharge, 5x 7.5% recharge, plus one or two others) I managed to get the recharge of Active Defense down to 54s, meaning not only permanent, but permanently double stacked. With OWTS up you'd have about 38 mag hold protection. You'd need 9 total stimulants after that, or 4 Escapes (3 just isn't quite enough). Two "support" scrappers each with Stimulant could keep enough of it on the "tank" scrapper, and the "tank" could carry 8 Escapes just in case.
I also second the Fire Melee suggestion. While it doesn't allow for the -res proc, it more than makes up for it with pure damage. Combined with AAO (especially saturated against LR and his banes) not much will stand against that much (pardon the pun) firepower.
Again, tell me what server you need the 50 on (or if this is going to happen on test) and I'll roll up. If we plan this out to happen on live, I can do a bit of Pling on Freedom (50 fire/kin 
), so that would probably be optimal. Just tell me when and where to go.
~WP
Just my opinion, feel free to disregard...
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What other options would you suggest for a group of scrappers? A group of controllers has more options of course; as does a group of Defenders. The bottom line is that you need to either be able to survive GW's hold or you need a method to prevent the hold from landing.|
Originally Posted by New Dawn
Don't be someone who has only ever seen or told of two options, be someone who can think of more options. There are always more options.
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For option one, surviving the hold, you'll need one of the following:
- Enough hold protection to withstand a MAG 100 hold
- A source of outside healing to outpace the DOT of the hold.
- Considerable passive negative resistance via auto powers or inspirations. That requires more resistance than an Invuln tanker possesses with all the passives.
- Enough defense (45%) to negative energy or range to reduce the chance of the hold landing to a manageable chance.
- Some method for preventing GW from using the hold... typically this means several controllers to hold her through her PToD which isn't an option with a group of scrappers.
Seriously, if you have another suggestion I'd be glad to hear it; I've listed everything I've thought of.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
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Suggestion: Work on this one.
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Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
you need a method to prevent the hold from landing
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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I'd like to add, that in anyone with an interest to do the all scrapper MoSTF would be NDs competition, she'd like to bag it on the euro servers first. So she is for all intensive purposes as helpful as can be.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
Suggestion: Work on this one.
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Originally Posted by New Dawn
Suggestion: Work on this one.
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Originally Posted by kokuryu_EU
I'd like to add, that in anyone with an interest to do the all scrapper MoSTF would be NDs competition, she'd like to bag it on the euro servers first. So she is for all intensive purposes as helpful as can be.
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Hmm, it does occur to me that Unstoppable and One with the Shield are click powers... they might offer enough resistance to survive the hold. The Ethereal Shift temp power would be another possibility, but it's completely dependent on timing.
I don't have a dog in the fight for server superiority unless you try the MoSTF on Guardian where my BS/Shield lives so I'll just wish all of you good luck! I'm sure it's doable with several strategies; I haven't tried an all (insert AT) MoSTF run yet. The 5 times I've gotten the badge were with more conventional teams.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
I'd love some competition, the only thing is I don't know if everyone I team with warms to competition. Some people do not like pressure or responsibility. For me having those two things to weigh you down is a bad thing. The objective is to be cautious, calculating and commited. Bad luck happens. It would just as easy for me to get something wrong as it would anyone else. Someones demise could be a result of something I didn't do right. One good day is what you can hope for as no matter what something can go wrong. One of the reasons why I'd love people just to work at it, or beat us to it, is because, it'll prove my point "It's doable". I would be right. 
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
Does Confront/taunt for scrappers reduce the range of GW's hold?
If yes, how much immobilize you need to freeze her in place?
If not much, how many immobilizes can you get with a buncha Scrappers?
If enough, can you outrange with taunt the reduced range of the hold?
Hmmm...
W Peace, how on earth you get those resistances for /SD scrappers? Am I missing something here?
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A decent player can just kite her regardless of if she's immobilized. I don't know whether confront has the -range or not.
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Originally Posted by Aliana Blue
Does Confront/taunt for scrappers reduce the range of GW's hold?
If yes, how much immobilize you need to freeze her in place? If not much, how many immobilizes can you get with a buncha Scrappers? If enough, can you outrange with taunt the reduced range of the hold? Hmmm... W Peace, how on earth you get those resistances for /SD scrappers? Am I missing something here? |
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True, I wonder if you wouldn't be better off just rushing her... the problem I've had with range tanking her is that the melee characters have problems keeping in range of her... they attack, then run forward, attack, then run forward. Actually keeping at range of her isn't the issue; if I can do it with a Granite + Rooted tank there's no excuse for anyone to have problems.|
Originally Posted by Kahlan_
A decent player can just kite her regardless of if she's immobilized. I don't know whether confront has the -range or not.
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Long as everyone's at 45% you won't need to worry about the heal... that may be better than forcing melee to chase her. Oh, somewhere in the last few issues GW's immob protection got buffed; last time we ran it 3 controllers were unable to immobilize her through the PToD.
COH has just been murdered by NCSoft. http://www.change.org/petitions/ncso...city-of-heroes
I am currently working on a way to do this with 8 spine/ scraps (secondary unimportant)
I will have a more formal post later with the math and whatnot but this is a general rundown:
Basically 8 spines scraps spamming confront for the fatty range debuff
All spine scraps have ranged builds
Using impale, the scraps should be able to immob the AV or at least slow them enough
Confront will lower the AVs range enough that the AV cannot attack the scraps
Now, in theory, the AV will not be able to attack any of the scraps while they spam impale, confront, and throw spines (spine burst too if necessary)
Only problem I can foresee:
Lord Recluse.
Basically the best way to deal with LR would be to stack up on purples. Have the strongest scrap constantly eating purples to stay at 100%+ defense levels while the other scraps mow through the towers and refill the tanking scrap. The tanking scrap could use the confront power and run around outside of LR's reduced range but close enough to keep aggro (but with such high def that might not even be necessary). Then, after the towers are down, use the same method to pwn LR.
Anyone see problems with my logic?
By the way, confront gives a -75% range debuff
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With all the DM in the team noted above if they cant imob her then the chances of them killing her are also nil
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Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
True, I wonder if you wouldn't be better off just rushing her... the problem I've had with range tanking her is that the melee characters have problems keeping in range of her... they attack, then run forward, attack, then run forward. Actually keeping at range of her isn't the issue; if I can do it with a Granite + Rooted tank there's no excuse for anyone to have problems.
Long as everyone's at 45% you won't need to worry about the heal... that may be better than forcing melee to chase her. Oh, somewhere in the last few issues GW's immob protection got buffed; last time we ran it 3 controllers were unable to immobilize her through the PToD. |
"Well, they found my diary today.
They were appropriately appalled
at the discovery of the eight victims
They're now putting it all together.
Women wrapped in silk
with one leg missing
Eight legs, one body, silk,
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You would be best off with 7 Shields and maybe 1 Electric for maximum possible resistance with obscene defense from Grant Cover/Maneuvers abuse. With 7 GCs and 8 Maneuvers, I think you would be softcapped even against Blue Tower Recluse. +77.32% off my quick Mids' check, so yeah. Add another 1.5x enhancement and you're definitely softcapped. You could probably afford to have another Electric backup.
After that: Melt Armor. And lots of it.
Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~
Too bad you can't make a spine/shield.....oh how amazing that would be...
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Finding a sweet spot as someone put it years ago, with AVs, getting that range that AVs settle for and are quite happy to sit at spamming some attack that had a maximum of 100ft range as it usually was, without an immob was by far much easier to achieve before the -range debuff. Most AVs I've played with at it go upto 310ft in range. I wouldn't attempt it. There is no real need to bother with it. No need to look at Immobs or sweet spots. However with Immobs I'd prefer to see them whilst doing the Aeon Mission, but they're really not essential. A reason for weapon mastery in pve does exist though. It is literally something we don't entertain at all and we have had repetitive success.|
Originally Posted by Call Me Awesome
True, I wonder if you wouldn't be better off just rushing her... the problem I've had with range tanking her is that the melee characters have problems keeping in range of her... they attack, then run forward, attack, then run forward. Actually keeping at range of her isn't the issue; if I can do it with a Granite + Rooted tank there's no excuse for anyone to have problems.
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The guy above saying spines/ secondary unimportant, basically the primary and secondary aren't that important but clearly some help more than others. I do fancy the Dark Armour in there when the Banes spring for control.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
It doesnt matter how large the range is with -75% range stacked at least 8 times constantly the range is gonna be like a few feet. And since they cant hit you, the secondary really doesnt matter (for the AVs at least). Only thing though is that you would need to pull the AVs seperately to remain completely unscathed
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The pulling of AVs separately is something that is easily done with a Scrapper, the solution to single pulls came to me on the last run and was sweet. I've had to handle 2 at a time before. That's an option even on a Mo Run. Currently installing games on a new computer so it'll be awhile before I get back on this one to test your theory out (I'd want to). What you are talking about should work with a Trick Archer. Unbeknownst to many people can be a massive help on a MoSTF. I've endorsed Entangling Arrow since day one.
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Originally Posted by DaveMebs
It doesnt matter how large the range is with -75% range stacked at least 8 times constantly the range is gonna be like a few feet. And since they cant hit you, the secondary really doesnt matter (for the AVs at least). Only thing though is that you would need to pull the AVs seperately to remain completely unscathed
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He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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AVs resist most things very heavily, lvl 54 AVs even more so and that probably means they also resist range debuffs just as much so I don't think it would work as good as you think.
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Originally Posted by DaveMebs
It doesnt matter how large the range is with -75% range stacked at least 8 times constantly the range is gonna be like a few feet. And since they cant hit you, the secondary really doesnt matter (for the AVs at least). Only thing though is that you would need to pull the AVs seperately to remain completely unscathed
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There is a minimum range below which you cannot debuff.
Even though I think it is unlikely to be true, I have heard, that -range from multiple Confronts do not stack.
GW does not immobilize (easily, like other AVs) while the PTODs are active. The other patron AVs seem not to either, but most strategies for dealing with them means they rarely move anyway.
I would want a Shield or WP scrapper to tank LR in order to prevent the pet summons. I was able to survive LR with an Inv scrapper and Aid Self, but he started summoning pets, and every pet is an avoidable risk, so I'd avoid it.
Rushing GW with 8 def capped scrappers has a serious drawback, IMO. Every time she casts the hold, she gets eight ~9% (is that right for a +4 AV?) chances to land it. Over the course of the fight, it seems pretty much guaranteed she will land it under those circumstances.
Naturally, the scrappers in melee with GW should shut off taunt auras. I'd also recommend doing what you can to body block her. If you can simply stand in her way and prevent her from approaching the range-taunt scrapper, you have avoided a thorny problem. She doesn't seem to able to figure out that she could fly over people, at least in the limited body blocking I have engaged in.
The real trick is for the range/taunt scrapper to be able to deal enough damage to overcome the range threat modifier and higher damage the melee scrappers will get. I believe the long duration of Confront (and thus its high threat multiplier) combined with a decent ranger-scrapper build should be able to manage this, but I am not sure how much the range modifier would reduce this by if we are keeping out of range of her hold.
If you rotate shield/wp scrappers to tank LR, you can try to make sure the one tanking LR always has OOtS or SoW active, which can allow a better inspire payload. You could also pull the Hover/taunt trick, while having a Shield or WP scrapper stay in melee with LR. This might prevent the summons, while keeping LR unable to attack.
The tower attackers should have an ample supply of red inspires, which they use. I'd strongly recommend being overly cautious and pulling out after each tower goes down in order to refresh inspire trays. This allows you to just go crazy and use tons of inspires without fear of running out, since you know in 2 or 3 minutes you will be getting more.
If the flyer is out, kill it. Why risk a master run for bravado?
Orange inspires do not suck here. OK, they still suck, but they are what you got, and if you are defense capped already, oranges, reds, and greens will go a long way.
Empowerment buffs are useful and work during a master run (although I haven't tested this in a long time).
Why Blasters? Empathy Sucks.
So, you want to be Mental?
What the hell? Let's buff defenders.
Tactics are for those who do not have a big enough hammer. Wisdom is knowing how big your hammer is.
Some people are get the tools for the job, and may not even begin to think of doing it without and that to me, doesn't show any existence of real resourcefulness or courage. It is because an all shield team doing it would be something most people would consider easy mode.
Most MoSTFs are done with people selecting people on the basis of their powersets looking for that easy mode. Players are what to look for, Players. Someone who has every type of Tanker and every type of Defender, if they're really thinking about it, could probably do the same job with any of their tankers for any of their defenders. Knowledge is power. It'll be better for the sake of more can it be done projects to find players who could do anything.