Finding FF Secondary Frustrating

Just wanted to ask the Force Field masterminds whether or not you have found using FF at all annoying. Let me preface this that I tend to believe I should be using my secondary actively, which currently translates to deploying both deflection shield and insulation shield, both on my 6 active bots and on my 7 teammates.

While I felt anecdotally that I was becoming frustrated that I was constantly checking and deploying force fields, I wanted to do a little math to see if my perception was off (forgive me if this has come up before, but I haven't seen it in the forums).

Based on Mid's estimates, here's what I came up with:

Deflection Shield 2.07 cast time, 240 second duration
Insulation Shield 2.07 cast time, 240 second duration

So, deploying both on a single ally costs 4.14 seconds.

On a full team, with all my bots deployed, we have 13 allies. Using 4.14 seconds per ally, it would take 53.82 seconds to deploy them all. That, of course, is not a realistic estimate of how long it would actually take, due to some human factors. Conservatively, I would imagine that around 60 seconds are needed to fully deploy shields to all teammates and pets. This also assumes that no teammate has any pets, or the amount of time stretches even farther.

To give an idea of the whole impact, due to the 240 second recharge time, using 60 seconds to deploy shields means approximately 25% of your playtime is devoted to cycling shields on.

Now, the obvious answer may be, don't bother shielding either teammates or your pets, or play something else, but I am curious if the developers have ever examined this issue and discussed it, considering that MM didn't exist when FF was originally constructed. To me, it seems an excessive amount of time to devote to a non-reactive power, especially when there are a lot of potential ways to reconstruct the FF powers to avoid such overhead in the MM set.

Some suggestions would be, make them deploy similarly to the "hugs" from empaths, allow them to exist for the mission duration or an extended duration, alter them to toggles, etc.

I was curious to know if others have felt that this has made your FF experience tedious and occasionally boring. Thanks for the input.

Hellwraith

You have bots/ff, I'm assuming. My first redside character was bot/ff, and I never found it to be tedious. Personally, I like being invincible.

Put two defense IOs into prot bots. Frankenslot acc/damage and heal to suit. Pick up maneuvers. Turn on dispersion bubble. Your bots are now softcapped, and you don't need to apply single target shields. I could be off on my numbers, but it's really close. At the most, you'll need to get the +5% defense unique IO, which isn't too hard to come by since you can get it at any level.

At this point, you're reduced to being a FF defender. Not as bad, but personally, I just shield the overeager teammates that get too much aggro and can't figure out how to stay in a dispersion bubble. Sometimes I don't even shield them, just to teach them to stay in the bubble if they want to be alive. After all, you are a mastermind, and teammates are bonus pets. You can't help it if the AI is a bit wonky.

Another suggestion is to use force bubble to keep all the enemies at range and only apply the ranged/aoe force field, cutting your time in half.

Hmm, that may make sense... I am likely just overdoing it with making sure I hit the DEF softcap on the pets. I usually like to team, just to keep things interesting, often PUGging, but it may be that I haven't played with the new difficulty settings enough to find enjoyment solo.

I am somewhat concerned that, as far as I know, there is no way to obtain any defense debuff protection with FF, though, so going above and beyond softcap seems like a good idea. However, realizing that even without the added deflection and insulation shields the bots can likely get softcap by using just dispersion bubble and maneuvers (plus sets), I am beginning to think that FF isn't as valuable as I thought.

Considering that I don't have a heal (excepting Aid Self), it seems that Traps can get me to the same place, and provide the heal I am lacking (along with all the other fun with traps, especially the - RES). Maybe I am missing something numerically there, but I may have to try a pass through Mids and see.

An aside, usually, I don't Min/Max quite so much, but lately I have been somewhat dismayed that some shiney new sets seem to be better at doing the same job I was used to doing. I am starting to think that there is nothing unique to FF that makes it stand out, when compared to Traps, especially if the numbers really don't make any changes. I guess Force Bubble is a bit fun. The invincibility (against most mobs) can be exciting, but the micromanagement has been tedious, adding in with the micromanagement normally needed just to run a MM. Could be user error

Hellwraith

Sadly, you're going through the exact same thing I did with my bot/ff.

I rerolled the SAME character on a different server as a bots/traps and had immensely greater amounts of fun. I still have the softcap on all my bots (and myself), but I have all the -res, -def, -regen, -tohit, -dmg, -perception, -spd, and +regen that traps offers.

What does FF have that traps doesn't? Defense above the softcap is essentially debuff resistance. Also, force bubble is bloody amazing against melee oriented enemies *looking at vanguard.* Force bolt is good control, although traps is better controlling. Detention field is a great way to deal with sappers or annoying bosses. And it has a panic button (PFF).

Repair is a good heal. I'm surprised how many people don't like it. Sure it's on a long timer, but with softcapped bots, how often to you need to heal in the first place?

You are going through exactly the same thought process as I am actually!

My Bots/FF has been my only 50 villain for some time now and I love bringing him out for MoLRSF runs because then he feels really useful, but anything else I feel like I am not playing a very big part. Solo it is even worse; yes I can safely solo AV's almost AFK but /Traps will also be softcapped, AND has massive debuffs!

I almost re-rolled him as Bots/Traps the other day but I have a Necro/Dark on the way that I want at 50 first.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aggelakis PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"

Sounds like I am not the only one who feels "build envy" of the Bot/Trap combo. I wonder if there are any small tweaks that could make FF a bit more viable and attractive as a MM secondary, when compared to IOed out Traps builds.

To be fair, there is the added toxic resist and end drain protection in FF, so I suppose there is a difference, though even the status protection magnitudes and overall def are higher for personal FF in traps than dispersion bubble. FF can keep you out of melee combat, and you have PFF, a great emergency protection button. However, tt seems like it ends up a wash, though, since many of those benefits really only help teammates cover holes in their protection, since I am not too worried about bots getting drained, and toxic is rare.

I'm thinking it's time for a switcheroo... I'm convinced, time to roll a Bot/Trap.

Any ideas about how FF could be improved, though?

The easiest idea I can think of would be adding in defense debuff protection, and altering the deployment method of FF to include the whole team, sort of in the radiation AM or empath hug style. It would at least give it that next level of protection that can't be gotten from traps, and let you deploy powers to all teammates without spraining your force field finger. Altering the set to include an AoE immobilize might make it more tempting as well, but I am not sure where that would fit in.

I hate seeing a dead secondary, but now I can see why no one chooses it.

I can't really see how FF could be improved because it does what it sets out to do really well, and a good bots/ff will be unkillable pretty much and can solo AV's so is already strong, it is just that /traps is bloody amazing!

I think if there were some good debuffs in the MM patron pools that would help /FF out immensely though.

Edit: Changing the way bubbles are given out wouldn't make much difference to me, if I didn't have people to bubble I wouldn't have anything to do! Though if it did work like say RA and affected the caster than a /FF would be defence capped on SO's which would increase the popularity immensely.

Debuff protection is also a good idea, as long as it somehow affects the caster too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aggelakis PrincessDarkstar: "RAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRGHHHHHHHHHH SOMEONE IS *WRONG* ON THE INTERNET!"

I'll play devil's advocate here since I already have a 50 Bots/Traps who's build is completely finished (to the tune of 7 billion inf).

The Force Field secondary does lack the debuffs and soft control that traps has, but it has its own soft control.

Let me break down the differences as I see them:

Traps:
The best set for soloing (measured by kill speed vs survivability) at high levels with a large amount of influence investment
Two sets of seeker drones from both the primary and secondary for large accuracy debuff stacking.
AoE Resistance/Defense Debuff
Absolutely MUST have an AoE Immobilize with -KB or many of the powers that define the set (i.e. Trip Mine, Caltrops, and others) simply cause even more scatter on top of the KB inherent to Bots
Primarily focuses on protecting the Mastermind himself and his pets and is not particularly team oriented
You must get CLOSE to the enemies to use mines and poison trap, meaning you must bring your bots into melee on purpose to get the most out of the traps set
If pets are destroyed must retreat to redeploy, only has softcapped defense for the Mastermind with Force Field Generator deployed, and only after being buffed by a pet
No Oh Sh*t button

Forcefield:
The best set for soloing at low levels and functions/performs very well with little influence investment at all levels
AoE Disorient/Knockdowns on a relatively short cycle, giving lots of soft control and damage mitigation (to the entire team)
Capable of greatly increasing the survivability of an entire team and not just their own pets or self
Able to function well at long range and slotted with accuracy and tohit buffs is even capable of completely staying out of melee with group fly and raining terror from above
Able to reherd scattered enemies with FF toggles, mitigating scatter (especially indoors)
Personal Force Field gives an option to stay alive in dire situations
Self Buff Force Field effects can not be outrun and do not get stuck on terrain as the Force Field Generator does
Able to keep enemies away from squishy teammates


Remember that Force Field is a lot more than just bubbling. Read the Force Field Bible in the Defender Forums if you're wondering why or don't know how to use the other powers.

Force Field sacrifices some damage output to increase the survivability of an entire team and the Mastermind. It has anti-scatter powers which are a godsend when paired with Bots, who throw mobs everywhere. Until you get an AoE Immob, Traps can be a very frustrating set to play with Bots.

In many ways, comparing Traps to Force Fields can be the same as comparing apples to oranges. They're both good for different things and for different reasons.

Bots/Traps > All The Rest

If you re-roll to Bots/Traps from Bots/FF you won't miss a beat and you'll be wondering why Santa loves /Traps so much more than /FF. Seriously, Traps gives you the exact same protection PLUS Acid Mortar, Poison Trap, Triage Beacon, Seekers, Tip Mines, and Caltrops.

I would say Force Bolt > Web Grenade, but that is a personal preference and is so minor you'll never think twice.

Bots/Traps is THEE One Man Wrecking Crew.

Roll it, Play it, Love it, get frustrated later that nothing else you want to try will be as fun.

I would add two teensy observations of the Forcefield set. Repulsion bomb adds a lot to the fun of knocking down the foes. Second, insulation shield does have an endurance drain protection feature which is so much noticeable against the Mu and the Malta sappers.

Aaaahhh, I'm back. Muh-ha-hah-HAHAHAHA! Foolish mortals.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hellwraith Just wanted to ask the Force Field masterminds whether or not you have found using FF at all annoying.

Sacrilege! Burn the heretic!

Quote:

On a full team, with all my bots deployed, we have 13 allies. Using 4.14 seconds per ally, it would take 53.82 seconds to deploy them all. ... approximately 25% of your playtime is devoted to cycling shields on.

To be serious, you have to ration those buffs. On a full team, skip the pets, or only do the Tier 3 pets. All teammates need buffs, imo, unless they specifically request otherwise, but the pets do not need buffs.

If you have Power Boost, you should be able to buff three teammates (with both shields) using one application of Power Boost. It'll take another minute or so to buff the next three, and on the third go-round of PB you can toss two PB shields on the Tier 3 pet. Then you should be back to buffing the first group of teammates when PB is up again. A bit of recharge on the bubbles will help get all six buffs within PB's time limit.


The main thing is, I think, your play style changes drastically on large teams. On small teams or solo, you're the tank and a good chunk of damage. That's for 1 to 3 folks, total, including yourself. With 4 or 5, buffing becomes more important, and you can start to ignore buffing your pets. With 6 to 8, you'll spend the whole mish buffing and following the team around. Put three or four pets on "Agressive" and ignore them unless you loose more than half. Then just re-summon. Your pets are now just one DoT on the mobs.

*ahem*

I would like to bring up this old thread of mine.

Bots/FF is stupid powerful.