Fire/Kin/Stone vs Fire/Kin/Fire?


Chaos Creator

 

Posted

Another thread here is asking for Fire/Kin/Stone build advice and rather than derail his thread I figured I'd ask here: what's the attraction of /Stone as opposed to /Fire? I admit I chose /Fire more for thematic reasons than any sort of detailed analysis. Assuming you picked /Stone instead, why did you?


Freedom: Blazing Larb, Fiery Fulcrum, Sardan Reborn, Arctic-Frenzy, Wasabi Sam, Mr Smashtastic.

 

Posted

Rock Armor is defense-based rather than resistance based, so it works well if you are trying to soft-cap smashing and lethal defense. Stone also has a nice close-range AoE damage (+stun) and +HP heal power that many builds find attractive.

I prefer Fire Epic on builds that aren't trying to cap defense, also for thematic purposes and the nice damage note: We're getting a self-rez in Fire with issue 16, correct?


 

Posted

soft cap, fissure is awesome, boss farms


 

Posted

I just changed my Fire/Kin from Fire APP to Stone. Fissure has a faster recharge than Fireball, knockdown and a chance for Stun to stack with Flashfire. It has a short range, but I'm usually in close range anyway.

One of the main reasons I switched? Seismic Smash is a single target melee power with a hold -- great for going after bosses. As previously mentioned, Rock Armor is Lethal and Smashing Defense-based rather than Resistance-based Fire Armor. And finally, the heal/HP boost from Earth's Embrace is a nice "panic button" power.


LOCAL MAN! The most famous hero of all. There are more newspaper stories about me than anyone else. "Local Man wins Medal of Honor." "Local Man opens Animal Shelter." "Local Man Charged with..." (Um, forget about that one.)
Guide Links: Earth/Rad Guide, Illusion/Rad Guide, Electric Control

 

Posted

As I have learned from others it has to do with survivability. Much like a tank can survive longer than a scrapper (for the most part) but the scrapper can kill quicker. Same basic scenario in theory.


 

Posted

Look at fissure, look at what you can slot it with. Compare cycle time and damage output to fireball.

That's reason 1.

Look at Seismic Smash.

That's reason 2.

Look at hp capped without having to bother getting any hp accolades.

That's reason 3.

Look at pretty easily hitting the s/l softcap.

That's reason 4.


A /stone app troller with EE up and softcapped s/l is 18x more survivable (vs attacks with a s/l component) than a /fire app troller with just fireshield and about ~1200 hp. That's before accounting for the mitigation offered by fissure.


 

Posted

One great thing that rarely gets mentioned (because most people only talk about farming) is defense as a mitigation also gives you very nice protections against mezzes. When my Fire/Kin was /Fire I was getting mezzed all the time running the Lady Grey and other high level content.

Others have already touched on everything else. Fissure is less damage than Fireball, but it has a fantastic secondary effect, it takes better sets, and it takes the Chance for Recharge proc, which I absolutely love.

Seismic Smash is ridiculously powerful.

I don't have Earth's Embrace on my Fire/Kin anymore because he was only getting about 50% of the hit points due to accolades, set bonuses and the hit point cap. But it is a great, great power.

I LOVED Fireball, but I will never go back from /Stone.


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by StratoNexus View Post
Does Earth's Embrace really recharge in 360 seconds?
Controllers get the best of everything. Not sure why it isn't a 540 rech like blaster Hoarfrost, but...well, controllers get the best of everything

For anyone wondering about fireball vs fissure.
Fireball:
64.24 (contained) + 0 to 9.18 dot damage
1.118 cast time
32 sec rech

=33.118 sec cycle time for a max of 2.21 dps
@ +200% rech
=11.78 cycle time for max of 6.23 dps
@ cap
=7.518 cycle time for max of 9.77 dps

Fissure
55.06 contained
2.244 cast time
20 sec rech

=22.244 sec cycle time for 2.48 dps
@200% rech
=8.91 cycle time for 6.17 dps
@ cap
=6.244 cycle time for 8.82 dps

*That is max dot for fireball too. I don't have the dot formula handy, but fissure is at worst equal to fireball over time with avg dot. Then recall that Fissure can slot the FF rech proc and an extra kb damage proc if desired.

The downside is that you need to be on the ground to use fissure and it has very short range (same sized aoe as fireball though). Both of which aren't really an issue for a /kin troller that is probably farming.

Finally my Seismic Smash can do 630 damage to an even con (at cap). For those times you start to get tired of killing everything with high dot damage it is nice to bust out a move that is right up there with the hardest hitting attacks in the game.
ie
bu+Energy Transfer = 566 damage
bu+headsplitter = 465 damage
rage+KO blow = 440 damage
aim+bu+total focus = 716 damage

And with all the recharge on a kin I can have it up as often as those guys (well no HS, but the others)

I'd say troller seismic smash is in fine company


 

Posted

I like Stone because I get lots of defense between stacking Weave and Rock Armor, because Seismic Smash lets me take a boss out of the fight in one go (and does a crapton of damage at the cap w/ Containment), because Earth's Embrace means I don't have to worry about accolades or +HP set bonuses, and because Fissure's stun stacks with Flashfire and it can take the Force Feedback proc.

In terms of raw damage you can't beat Fireball, but the utility and survivability of Stone outweigh the damage that Fire brings.


@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."

 

Posted

I run with stone for survivability too. I have mine soft capped for S&L, 63% resist and +77.5% recharge before hasten. It allowed me to farm +2 bosses spawned for 8 prior to i16 nerf. Aside from farming, running regular missions and task forces was a cake walk with the build.


@Ra Ra

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ra_Ra View Post
I run with stone for survivability too. I have mine soft capped for S&L, 63% resist and +77.5% recharge before hasten. It allowed me to farm +2 bosses spawned for 8 prior to i16 nerf. Aside from farming, running regular missions and task forces was a cake walk with the build.
You should send me your build, but with the prices of purples the way they are today I'm not sure if I'm wanting to change my existing build... I'd love to close that gap to the last 15% to the softcap though. >.>


@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by macskull View Post
You should send me your build, but with the prices of purples the way they are today I'm not sure if I'm wanting to change my existing build... I'd love to close that gap to the last 15% to the softcap though. >.>
Here ya go mac

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Floppy Disks: Level 50 Science Controller
Primary Power Set: Fire Control
Secondary Power Set: Kinetics
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Stone Mastery

Hero Profile:
------------
Level 1: Char UbrkCons-Hold:50(A), UbrkCons-Hold/Rchg:50(3), UbrkCons-Acc/Hold/Rchg:50(3), UbrkCons-Acc/Rchg:50(5), UbrkCons-EndRdx/Hold:50(5)
Level 1: Transfusion Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx:50(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg:50(7), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg:50(7), Dct'dW-Rchg:50(9), Dct'dW-Heal:50(9)
Level 2: Fire Cages Enf'dOp-Acc/Rchg:50(A), Enf'dOp-EndRdx/Immob:50(11), Enf'dOp-Acc/EndRdx:50(13), Enf'dOp-Immob/Rng:50(13), Enf'dOp-Acc/Immob/Rchg:50(15), Enf'dOp-Acc/Immob:50(15)
Level 4: Siphon Power Acc-I:50(A), Acc-I:50(17)
Level 6: Hasten RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(19), RechRdx-I:50(19)
Level 8: Hurdle Jump-I:50(A)
Level 10: Siphon Speed Acc-I:50(A), Acc-I:50(11), RechRdx-I:50(17), RechRdx-I:50(21), RechRdx-I:50(37)
Level 12: Flashfire Amaze-Stun:50(A), Amaze-Stun/Rchg:50(21), Amaze-Acc/Stun/Rchg:50(23), Amaze-Acc/Rchg:50(23), Amaze-EndRdx/Stun:50(25)
Level 14: Super Speed Zephyr-ResKB:50(A)
Level 16: Health Mrcl-Rcvry+:40(A)
Level 18: Hot Feet Armgdn-Acc/Rchg:50(A), Armgdn-Dmg/Rchg:50(27), Armgdn-Dam%:50(27), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx:50(29), Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(29), EndRdx-I:50(37)
Level 20: Stamina P'Shift-End%:50(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc:50(25), P'Shift-EndMod:50(31), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg:50(36)
Level 22: Speed Boost Run-I:50(A)
Level 24: Boxing KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx:35(33), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg:35(33), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(33)
Level 26: Combat Jumping LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), Krma-ResKB:30(31)
Level 28: Tough RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(34), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(34), RctvArm-ResDam:40(36), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(36)
Level 30: Weave LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), LkGmblr-Def:30(31), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:50(34)
Level 32: Fire Imps ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg:50(A), ExRmnt-Dmg/EndRdx:50(46), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(46), ExRmnt-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg:50(46)
Level 35: Transference P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg:50(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg:50(37), P'Shift-Acc/Rchg:50(40), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc:50(40), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg:50(43)
Level 38: Fulcrum Shift Acc-I:50(A), Acc-I:50(39), RechRdx-I:50(39), RechRdx-I:50(39), RechRdx-I:50(40)
Level 41: Fissure Ragnrk-Dmg:50(A), Ragnrk-Dmg/Rchg:50(42), Ragnrk-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(42), Ragnrk-Acc/Rchg:50(42), Ragnrk-Dmg/EndRdx:50(43), Posi-Dam%:50(43)
Level 44: Rock Armor LkGmblr-Def:50(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:50(45), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(45), LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(45)
Level 47: Earth's Embrace Numna-Heal:40(A), Numna-Heal/Rchg:40(48), Numna-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg:40(48), RechRdx-I:40(48)
Level 49: Seismic Smash KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg:35(50), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx:35(50), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint Clrty-Stlth:50(A)
Level 2: Rest Empty(A)
Level 1: Containment


@Ra Ra

 

Posted

No intent to derail this, but is stone recommended over psionic mastery in terms of survivability? How useful is indomitable will and the rest of the set compared to what stone can offer?


 

Posted

Indom Will is a nice power and you can get it perma. However, with stone, mez protection is defense. Basically if you don't get hit, you don't get mez'd. Along this line, Indomitable Will is better. However, with a Fire Kin, you want AOE damage and you get that with Fissure + a nice heal and a nice single target attack with seismic smash.

There's nothing wrong with going Psi Mastery. My Illusion Rad has Psi. I had it for awhile on the Fire Kin but wanted to soft cap so I switched to stone.


@Ra Ra

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ra_Ra View Post
Here ya go mac

Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/

Floppy Disks: Level 50 Science Controller
Primary Power Set: Fire Control
Secondary Power Set: Kinetics
Power Pool: Speed
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Power Pool: Leaping
Ancillary Pool: Stone Mastery

Hero Profile:
------------
Level 1: Char UbrkCons-Hold:50(A), UbrkCons-Hold/Rchg:50(3), UbrkCons-Acc/Hold/Rchg:50(3), UbrkCons-Acc/Rchg:50(5), UbrkCons-EndRdx/Hold:50(5)
Level 1: Transfusion Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx:50(A), Dct'dW-Heal/Rchg:50(7), Dct'dW-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg:50(7), Dct'dW-Rchg:50(9), Dct'dW-Heal:50(9)
Level 2: Fire Cages Enf'dOp-Acc/Rchg:50(A), Enf'dOp-EndRdx/Immob:50(11), Enf'dOp-Acc/EndRdx:50(13), Enf'dOp-Immob/Rng:50(13), Enf'dOp-Acc/Immob/Rchg:50(15), Enf'dOp-Acc/Immob:50(15)
Level 4: Siphon Power Acc-I:50(A), Acc-I:50(17)
Level 6: Hasten RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(19), RechRdx-I:50(19)
Level 8: Hurdle Jump-I:50(A)
Level 10: Siphon Speed Acc-I:50(A), Acc-I:50(11), RechRdx-I:50(17), RechRdx-I:50(21), RechRdx-I:50(37)
Level 12: Flashfire Amaze-Stun:50(A), Amaze-Stun/Rchg:50(21), Amaze-Acc/Stun/Rchg:50(23), Amaze-Acc/Rchg:50(23), Amaze-EndRdx/Stun:50(25)
Level 14: Super Speed Zephyr-ResKB:50(A)
Level 16: Health Mrcl-Rcvry+:40(A)
Level 18: Hot Feet Armgdn-Acc/Rchg:50(A), Armgdn-Dmg/Rchg:50(27), Armgdn-Dam%:50(27), Armgdn-Dmg/EndRdx:50(29), Armgdn-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(29), EndRdx-I:50(37)
Level 20: Stamina P'Shift-End%:50(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc:50(25), P'Shift-EndMod:50(31), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg:50(36)
Level 22: Speed Boost Run-I:50(A)
Level 24: Boxing KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx:35(33), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg:35(33), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(33)
Level 26: Combat Jumping LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), Krma-ResKB:30(31)
Level 28: Tough RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx:40(A), RctvArm-ResDam/Rchg:40(34), RctvArm-ResDam/EndRdx/Rchg:40(34), RctvArm-ResDam:40(36), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(36)
Level 30: Weave LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), LkGmblr-Def:30(31), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:50(34)
Level 32: Fire Imps ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg:50(A), ExRmnt-Dmg/EndRdx:50(46), ExRmnt-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(46), ExRmnt-EndRdx/Dmg/Rchg:50(46)
Level 35: Transference P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg:50(A), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg:50(37), P'Shift-Acc/Rchg:50(40), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc:50(40), Efficacy-EndMod/Acc/Rchg:50(43)
Level 38: Fulcrum Shift Acc-I:50(A), Acc-I:50(39), RechRdx-I:50(39), RechRdx-I:50(39), RechRdx-I:50(40)
Level 41: Fissure Ragnrk-Dmg:50(A), Ragnrk-Dmg/Rchg:50(42), Ragnrk-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(42), Ragnrk-Acc/Rchg:50(42), Ragnrk-Dmg/EndRdx:50(43), Posi-Dam%:50(43)
Level 44: Rock Armor LkGmblr-Def:50(A), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:50(45), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx/Rchg:50(45), LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(45)
Level 47: Earth's Embrace Numna-Heal:40(A), Numna-Heal/Rchg:40(48), Numna-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg:40(48), RechRdx-I:40(48)
Level 49: Seismic Smash KntkC'bat-Acc/Dmg:35(A), KntkC'bat-Dmg/Rchg:35(50), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx:35(50), KntkC'bat-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:35(50)
------------
Level 1: Brawl Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint Clrty-Stlth:50(A)
Level 2: Rest Empty(A)
Level 1: Containment
can i have the block for this ra?


 

Posted

I was gona ask for the same thing so I can upload into my mids at home (or work) and play around with it


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by macskull View Post
You should send me your build, but with the prices of purples the way they are today I'm not sure if I'm wanting to change my existing build... I'd love to close that gap to the last 15% to the softcap though. >.>

Not sure if you have noticed but the price of purples has been comming down so the build will not be as expensive as it was prior to I16


 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tru_ghost View Post
can i have the block for this ra?
For you guys that don't know, copy everything from the first letter of the character's name (the f of Floppy in this case) at the top to the last letter of "Containment" at the bottom. It works in the exact same way (Mids' really is wonderful). In fact, you can copy Ra_Ra's entire post and get the same effect.

As long as you have that section on your clipboard, Mids' should interpret it. One thing to note, however, if you're using the Titan Network i16 version of Mids' (v1.601 versus the v1.401 of the build), a few of the IOs won't carry through. You can easily fix those glitches however.


Blue: ~Knockback Squad on Guardian~
Red: ~Undoing of Virtue on [3 guesses]~

 

Posted

Sorry, I havent read the forums for awhile. I'm watching Monday night football at the moment and will post the block at half time


@Ra Ra

 

Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by LostHalo View Post
For you guys that don't know, copy everything from the first letter of the character's name (the f of Floppy in this case) at the top to the last letter of "Containment" at the bottom. It works in the exact same way (Mids' really is wonderful). In fact, you can copy Ra_Ra's entire post and get the same effect.

As long as you have that section on your clipboard, Mids' should interpret it. One thing to note, however, if you're using the Titan Network i16 version of Mids' (v1.601 versus the v1.401 of the build), a few of the IOs won't carry through. You can easily fix those glitches however.
Wow, that's actually really cool. Didn't know you could do that.


@macskull, @Not Mac | XBL: macskull | Steam: macskull | Skype: macskull
"One day we all may see each other elsewhere. In Tyria, in Azeroth. We may pass each other and never know it. And that's sad. But if nothing else, we'll still have Rhode Island."

 

Posted

Sorry it took so long. I should read the boards more often

Here's the data chunk.

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@Ra Ra

 

Posted

Just thought I would throw out my dual build setups that I run. Both/fire and /stone for the best of both worlds but I cost a crapton of inf to set up.

My /fire build.

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My /stone build.


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Posted

Quote:
Originally Posted by LostHalo View Post
For you guys that don't know, copy everything from the first letter of the character's name (the f of Floppy in this case) at the top to the last letter of "Containment" at the bottom. It works in the exact same way (Mids' really is wonderful). In fact, you can copy Ra_Ra's entire post and get the same effect.

As long as you have that section on your clipboard, Mids' should interpret it. One thing to note, however, if you're using the Titan Network i16 version of Mids' (v1.601 versus the v1.401 of the build), a few of the IOs won't carry through. You can easily fix those glitches however.
Very awesome... I did not know that, tried it and it worked.

thanks for the info.