It's probably because other classes (Night Widows and Scrappers) do it better.
Bane DPS isn't quite enough to beat most AV regen, and they have no -regen to help, and unless you hit the def cap you don't have the suvivability either.
I really should do something about this signature.
Quote:
Soft capping bane def: not that hard.|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
It's probably because other classes (Night Widows and Scrappers) do it better.
Bane DPS isn't quite enough to beat most AV regen, and they have no -regen to help, and unless you hit the def cap you don't have the suvivability either. |
Surveillance (and option for Venom Grenade): better than -regen which is heavily resisted by AVs, whereas -res is not.
Then there's the astonishing (compared to Widows) End efficiency of Banes.
I highly question whether most accounts of Bane DPS (that almost all say it is lousy) take account of Surveillance?
And then of course there's the Whole Point of the OP which is that the Bane (assuming soft capped def) has Better survivability than the Widow.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
Yeah, it was stupidly easy to softcap my Bane's defense if I used CJ and SJ. Even without using that "trick" it wasn't too difficult and still left me plenty of room to slot for things besides defense. I realize it's not optimal for taking down AVs, but I just wanted to know if it had been done.
I think -40% Resists (Surveillance + Achilles Proc) combined with double-stacked Assault should be more than enough to take down an AV. Heck, I was able to put a good dent in Luminary's health on my 35 Bane without any IO sets. My main issue obviously was survivability, as you're nowhere near the softcap at 35 unless you're chugging purples 
.
I'm more interested in what kind of attack chain I should use to maximize DPS, as the long activation times are kind of throwing me off.
Resistance debuff in Survaillance is bairly enough to counter the attack chain interuption that the power causes. It's great for boosting an Alpha strike, but overall DPS on a bane is pretty poor compared to a Widow.
Quote:
Yes, it the long activation times and weapon redraw that kill Bane DPS.
| I'm more interested in what kind of attack chain I should use to maximize DPS, as the long activation times are kind of throwing me off. |
I really should do something about this signature.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Resistance debuff in Survaillance is bairly enough to counter the attack chain interuption that the power causes. It's great for boosting an Alpha strike, but overall DPS on a bane is pretty poor compared to a Widow.
Yes, it the long activation times and weapon redraw that kill Bane DPS. |
Would be very surprised to hear that Widows DPS overcomes the animation time of Mind Link.
EDIT: Also, weapon redraw is a myth, animations take the same length of time regardless of whether you have your weapon in or out at the start.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
Quote:
Good grief, there aren't some people who still believe this are there?| EDIT: Also, weapon redraw is a myth, animations take the same length of time regardless of whether you have your weapon in or out at the start. |
That used to be how it was supposed to work when the game first launched, but some powers never worked propery, and over a year ago BAB decided to remove the pauses between attacks, and have redraw count. It took a while for the changes to work thier way through, but redraw slows your attacks on all weapon sets now.
This means that Survaillance has an effective acitivation time of abount 2.5 seconds. The duration of the effect is 20 seconds, so using it in a long duration fight reduces your DPS by around 12.5%. Thats not quite enough to cancel the benefit of the -res, but once you take into account that Survailance isn't autohit, and that many AVs have smashing resistance, which resists resistance debuffs, it works out that you are better off not using Survaillance mid fight.
Venom Grenade is even worse, since it has two redraws, one for the rifle, and one to switch back to the Mace, causing it to blast a hole in your attack chain of over 3 seconds.
NB, Widow claws also have a redraw, but it is much much shorter than the Mace or Rifle.
I really should do something about this signature.
Quote:
Yours is the first claim I've ever seen to the contrary.|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
Good grief, there aren't some people who still believe this are there?
|
Quote:
| That used to be how it was supposed to work when the game first launched, but some powers never worked propery, and over a year ago BAB decided to remove the pauses between attacks, and have redraw count. It took a while for the changes to work thier way through, but redraw slows your attacks on all weapon sets now. |
Quote:
| This means that Survaillance has an effective acitivation time of abount 2.5 seconds. The duration of the effect is 20 seconds, so using it in a long duration fight reduces your DPS by around 12.5%. Thats not quite enough to cancel the benefit of the -res, but once you take into account that Survailance isn't autohit, and that many AVs have smashing resistance, which resists resistance debuffs, it works out that you are better off not using Survaillance mid fight. |
Quote:
| NB, Widow claws also have a redraw, but it is much much shorter than the Mace or Rifle. |
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
You don't pay much attention to what is going on in this game do you?
You might try doing a search for posts about Redraw by BAB.
Here is one from last december for example, from part way through the process: Broadsword, Axe, Mace, Rifle and Bow had been changed, Claws and Katana had not been - they have been now.
http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...raw#post669159
You can't do precise calculations about the effectiveness of Survailance, because it depends on how much resistance the AV you are fighting has. If you are lucky enough to come up against one with no resistance to your damage (mostly smashing for a bane) then it is just about worth using, but even then it will miss at least 7.5% of the time against an AV.
I really should do something about this signature.
Quote:
Kindly don't make assumptions about me and I will try not to make assumptions about you. I do tend to keep informed about changes to the game.|
Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
You don't pay much attention to what is going on in this game do you?
You might try doing a search for posts about Redraw by BAB. Here is one from last december for example, from part way through the process: Broadsword, Axe, Mace, Rifle and Bow had been changed, Claws and Katana had not been - they have been now. http://boards.cityofheroes.com/showt...raw#post669159 You can't do precise calculations about the effectiveness of Survailance, because it depends on how much resistance the AV you are fighting has. If you are lucky enough to come up against one with no resistance to your damage (mostly smashing for a bane) then it is just about worth using, but even then it will miss at least 7.5% of the time against an AV. |
This last paragraph does not prove that you get better DPS by not using Surveillance, it merely claims it again.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
Quote:
This while it may seem a big hurdle, actually isn't in practice. Ignoring any resist buffs, on paper my fortunata does 221dps. Mind link has to be recast every 90 seconds and I lose less then one full attack chain. Typically when I cast ML I do restart my attack chain, it ends up being about a 10dps loss in the end, not very significant. My next project is making a widow that doesn't need mind link, almost have the build where i want it |
Originally Posted by Wavicle
Would be very surprised to hear that Widows DPS overcomes the animation time of Mind Link.
|
I tend to not get into discussions about archetyes I don't play, but PRAF68 is right about the bane animation times. I'm not going to get into the redraw, as i don't have a bane. Widows are good for soloing AVs because their attacks have very high DPA. They do better then most brute/scrapper sets. Banes on the other hand have very poor dpa. Since I don't have a bane, i'm not exactly sure what attack chain would be best but when I considered making one for AV soloing I worked up a build. Here are the numbers I came up with for DPA.
Bane Spider Soldier
Bash 1.3/1.584 = 0.82
Shatter 2.78/2.508 = 1.11
Pulverize 2.14/1.716 = 1.25
Crowd Control 2.11/2.244 = 0.95
Bash > Pulverize > Bash > Shatter
.82/1.25/.82/1.11 in 7.392 = 0.54
To put it short, thats garbage compared to widows. Even the lowest DPA of widow attack chains is twice as efficient.
Arachnos Widow
Swipe - .8 Lethal + 3x.08 toxic = 1.04/1.056 = 0.985
Followup - .91/1.056 = 0.86
Lunge 1.82 + 4x.1 = 2.22/1.056 = 2.10
Followup > Swipe > Lunge > Swipe
.86/.985/2.1/.985 in 4.224s = 1.17
Not taking sides, just stating the numbers. That doesn't mean it can't be done. I've heard of people soloing AVs with pure range fortunatas, and the dpa for that chain is 0.66. It may be possible, but it would surely take some time.
Quote:
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Originally Posted by LuxunS
This while it may seem a big hurdle, actually isn't in practice. Ignoring any resist buffs, on paper my fortunata does 221dps. Mind link has to be recast every 90 seconds and I lose less then one full attack chain. Typically when I cast ML I do restart my attack chain, it ends up being about a 10dps loss in the end, not very significant. My next project is making a widow that doesn't need mind link, almost have the build where i want it
I tend to not get into discussions about archetyes I don't play, but PRAF68 is right about the bane animation times. I'm not going to get into the redraw, as i don't have a bane. Widows are good for soloing AVs because their attacks have very high DPA. They do better then most brute/scrapper sets. Banes on the other hand have very poor dpa. Since I don't have a bane, i'm not exactly sure what attack chain would be best but when I considered making one for AV soloing I worked up a build. Here are the numbers I came up with for DPA. Bane Spider Soldier Bash 1.3/1.584 = 0.82 Shatter 2.78/2.508 = 1.11 Pulverize 2.14/1.716 = 1.25 Crowd Control 2.11/2.244 = 0.95 Bash > Pulverize > Bash > Shatter .82/1.25/.82/1.11 in 7.392 = 0.54 To put it short, thats garbage compared to widows. Even the lowest DPA of widow attack chains is twice as efficient. Arachnos Widow Swipe - .8 Lethal + 3x.08 toxic = 1.04/1.056 = 0.985 Followup - .91/1.056 = 0.86 Lunge 1.82 + 4x.1 = 2.22/1.056 = 2.10 Followup > Swipe > Lunge > Swipe .86/.985/2.1/.985 in 4.224s = 1.17 Not taking sides, just stating the numbers. That doesn't mean it can't be done. I've heard of people soloing AVs with pure range fortunatas, and the dpa for that chain is 0.66. It may be possible, but it would surely take some time. |
Again, you left out Surveillance, not to say it's gonna turn garbage to gold, but you forgot it.
Your Widow may not need Mind Link, but I bet your teammates will be sad that you don't have it. I guess it'll be good at soloing AVs tho, long as they aren't Psi.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
Quote:
OK, some maths for survallance. Let X equal the AV damage resistance, used to resist resistance debuffs.|
Originally Posted by Wavicle
Again, you left out Surveillance, not to say it's gonna turn garbage to gold, but you forgot it.
Your Widow may not need Mind Link, but I bet your teammates will be sad that you don't have it. I guess it'll be good at soloing AVs tho, long as they aren't Psi. |
Relative damage change from Survaillance (1.0 = break even):
D = 20*100/((100-0.925*(20*(1-X)))*22.5
Best case scenario. X = 0, using Survaillence increases your DPS by a maximum of 10.54%. Hardly earth shattering. Increases LuxunS DPA calculation to 0.62.
Break even point, X = 40%. If the AV has greater than 40% resistance to whatever damage type you are doing, then using Survaillance will actually lower your DPS.
I can't tell you much about Widows. I don't have a massive amount of experience of playing them, like I do for Bane Spiders.
I really should do something about this signature.
Quote:
|
Originally Posted by LuxunS
This while it may seem a big hurdle, actually isn't in practice. Ignoring any resist buffs, on paper my fortunata does 221dps. Mind link has to be recast every 90 seconds and I lose less then one full attack chain. Typically when I cast ML I do restart my attack chain, it ends up being about a 10dps loss in the end, not very significant. My next project is making a widow that doesn't need mind link, almost have the build where i want it
I tend to not get into discussions about archetyes I don't play, but PRAF68 is right about the bane animation times. I'm not going to get into the redraw, as i don't have a bane. Widows are good for soloing AVs because their attacks have very high DPA. They do better then most brute/scrapper sets. Banes on the other hand have very poor dpa. Since I don't have a bane, i'm not exactly sure what attack chain would be best but when I considered making one for AV soloing I worked up a build. Here are the numbers I came up with for DPA. Bane Spider Soldier Bash – 1.3/1.584 = 0.82 Shatter – 2.78/2.508 = 1.11 Pulverize – 2.14/1.716 = 1.25 Crowd Control – 2.11/2.244 = 0.95 Bash > Pulverize > Bash > Shatter .82/1.25/.82/1.11 in 7.392 = 0.54 To put it short, thats garbage compared to widows. Even the lowest DPA of widow attack chains is twice as efficient. Arachnos Widow Swipe - .8 Lethal + 3x.08 toxic = 1.04/1.056 = 0.985 Followup - .91/1.056 = 0.86 Lunge – 1.82 + 4x.1 = 2.22/1.056 = 2.10 Followup > Swipe > Lunge > Swipe .86/.985/2.1/.985 in 4.224s = 1.17 Not taking sides, just stating the numbers. That doesn't mean it can't be done. I've heard of people soloing AVs with pure range fortunatas, and the dpa for that chain is 0.66. It may be possible, but it would surely take some time. |
I tend to not like posting here that much about Banes, since most think I am Biased toward them, however, in your calculations a couple things you forgot to include...
Survallence and Venom Grenade w/ the AH -res proc giving a total of 60% -res to all and 80 -res to toxic (looks at Poisonous Ray).
Not sure if you included the buffs from follow up, but I think it would be fair to average in the use of Build up.
What about the damage that is given off by the pets, I would imagine that they too would be doing some serious damage with a 60% -res boost on an enemy.
Also in terms of survivablity Banes can easily soft cap defenses, however, in the same sense they also have the 20% hp boost 12% dam res to all. Which is something a Widow cannot achieve easily through IOs. I state this because even at Capped defenses an even level AV has a 7.5% chance to hit you, so you are going to get hit and a Bane can take one better than a Widow can.
Not sure if these aspects would help Bane do more damage, but these are key factors that were left out.
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
Quote:
Even ignoring the redraw, this is a painfully slow attack chain. Even Poison Ray has a 2.0 second animation time.
|
I tend to not like posting here that much about Banes, since most think I am Biased toward them, however, in your calculations a couple things you forgot to include... Survallence and Venom Grenade w/ the AH -res proc giving a total of 60% -res to all and 80 -res to toxic (looks at Poisonous Ray). |
I really should do something about this signature.
Quote:
In my experience, pets rarely last more than a couple of seconds against an AV.|
Not sure if you included the buffs from follow up, but I think it would be fair to average in the use of Build up. What about the damage that is given off by the pets, I would imagine that they too would be doing some serious damage with a 60% -res boost on an enemy. |
Quote:
| Not sure if these aspects would help Bane do more damage, but these are key factors that were left out. |
I really should do something about this signature.
Quote:
No Argument there, just as long as I can solo EBs, I don't feel too bad, never really tried to solo an AV with any of my toons, I would imagine I have a couple of Scrappers and trollers that can do it, but I have nothing to prove.
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Originally Posted by PRAF68_EU
In my experience, pets rarely last more than a couple of seconds against an AV.
Banes are great. I love my bane. It is great in teams, and can do serious solo damage in fights that last less than 20 seconds. AV killer is not what it is suited for though. |
"Yes, winning all the time can be boring."
-Knight_Chill
"It's amazing how well you can put up with endurance issues if you hide them under a large enough pile of bodies."
-Spiritchaser speaking on Dom Revamp
Quote:
What attack chain is most effective for Widows? or attack chains? I dont know how to calculate these things. Thanks
|
Originally Posted by LuxunS
This while it may seem a big hurdle, actually isn't in practice. Ignoring any resist buffs, on paper my fortunata does 221dps. Mind link has to be recast every 90 seconds and I lose less then one full attack chain. Typically when I cast ML I do restart my attack chain, it ends up being about a 10dps loss in the end, not very significant. My next project is making a widow that doesn't need mind link, almost have the build where i want it
I tend to not get into discussions about archetyes I don't play, but PRAF68 is right about the bane animation times. I'm not going to get into the redraw, as i don't have a bane. Widows are good for soloing AVs because their attacks have very high DPA. They do better then most brute/scrapper sets. Banes on the other hand have very poor dpa. Since I don't have a bane, i'm not exactly sure what attack chain would be best but when I considered making one for AV soloing I worked up a build. Here are the numbers I came up with for DPA. Bane Spider Soldier Bash 1.3/1.584 = 0.82 Shatter 2.78/2.508 = 1.11 Pulverize 2.14/1.716 = 1.25 Crowd Control 2.11/2.244 = 0.95 Bash > Pulverize > Bash > Shatter .82/1.25/.82/1.11 in 7.392 = 0.54 To put it short, thats garbage compared to widows. Even the lowest DPA of widow attack chains is twice as efficient. Arachnos Widow Swipe - .8 Lethal + 3x.08 toxic = 1.04/1.056 = 0.985 Followup - .91/1.056 = 0.86 Lunge 1.82 + 4x.1 = 2.22/1.056 = 2.10 Followup > Swipe > Lunge > Swipe .86/.985/2.1/.985 in 4.224s = 1.17 Not taking sides, just stating the numbers. That doesn't mean it can't be done. I've heard of people soloing AVs with pure range fortunatas, and the dpa for that chain is 0.66. It may be possible, but it would surely take some time. |
Pretty sure -RES powers can be factored quite easily, regardless of target resistance (assuming you consistently single stack the -RES, or factor in downtime).
Resists effect your calcuated DPS and the -RES debuff equally. A -20% RES debuff will result in a overall 20% increase in DPS (not factoring in activation time here), even if the target has 99% resist or -100% resist (inherent / unresisted).
If you guys were arguing damage types, we might have something more complicated here, but we are not.
Freeedom
H: Victra Defile (Rad/Dark) & Hot Hits (Fire/SD)
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--If you don't like what I have to say, it was probably a typo you are refering to.
Quote:
I said I came up with the build. My current build has perma-mind link, no complaining teammates. If I ever built the other one, it would be strictly for soloing AVs or for teams that the 15% defense wouldn't make a significant contribution.|
Originally Posted by Wavicle
Again, you left out Surveillance, not to say it's gonna turn garbage to gold, but you forgot it.
Your Widow may not need Mind Link, but I bet your teammates will be sad that you don't have it. I guess it'll be good at soloing AVs tho, long as they aren't Psi. |
DPS examples will use this build. It has several possible attack chains and all the debuffs and pets w/ softcapped defenses and aid self. Pretty much anything you'd want to solo AVs.
** Note - None of the builds take pets into account. I didn't want to give myself too big a headache. Plus its difficult to account for their survivability as it would vary depending on how well the bane held aggro, as well as the powers used by the individual AV.
[color:#489AFF]Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.401[/color]
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Code:
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Surveillance > Venom Grenade > Poisonous Ray > Build Up > Pulverize > Shatter > Poisonous Ray > Pulverize > Bash > Shatter > Venom Grenade > Surveillance > Poisonous Ray > Bash > Pulverize > Shatter > Poisonous Ray > Pulverize > Bash > Shatter
0/.47/2.244/0/1.25/1.11/.89/1.25/.82/1.11/0/.47/2.244/.82/1.25/1.11/.89/1.25/.82/1.11 in 39.584 = 0.483
Bash = (55.61)*(1+.9583+.15+.8) + 10.8 = 161.73*1.4 = 226.42
Bash = (55.61)*(1+.9583+.15) + 10.8 = (128.04*1.4)*2 = 358.51
Venom Grenade = (54.6)*(1+.8992+.15) = (111.89*1.4)*2 = 313.29
Poisonous Ray = (111.2)*(1+.15+.8) + 14.36 = 231.2*1.4 = 323.68
Poisonous Ray = (111.2)*(1+.15) + 14.36 = (142.24*1.4)*3 = 597.41
Pulverize = (91.2)*(1+.9583+.15) + 10.77 = (203.05*1.4)*2 = 568.54
Pulverize = (91.2)*(1+.9583+.15+.8) + 10.77 = (276.01*1.4)*2 = 772.83
Shatter = (126.79)*(1+.9586+.15) = (267.35*1.4)*2 = 748.58
Shatter = (126.79)*(1+.9586+.15+.8) = (368.78*1.4)*2 = 1032.58
DPS = 124.85
This is admittedly higher then the original attack chain I posted w/ buildup. Which sits at 116.42. Another thing to note is that I don't have Poisonous Ray slotted for damage. If someone rebuilt the toon with PR slotted for damage, it would probably be the most damaging attack chain. I just threw that one together quickly.
The DPS from that original attack chain however if Surveillance is added, goes up a bit. Of the chains i looked at (with that build), this one offers the best DPS.
With Build-up and Surveillance
Bash > Pulverize > Bash > Shatter
.82/1.25/.82/1.11 in 7.392 = 0.54
Bash = (55.61)*(1+.9583+.15) + 10.8 = 128.04*2 = 256.08*1.23 = 314.98*1.2 = 377.98
Pulverize = (91.2)*(1+.9583+.15) + 10.77 = 203.05*1.23 = 249.75*1.2 = 299.7
Shatter = (126.79)*(1+.9586+.15) = 267.35*1.23 = 328.84*1.2 = 394.61
Taking into account BU and Surveillance replacing Bash ((145.06*35.3)-188.99))/35.3 = ((139.71*20)-188.99))/20
DPS = 130.26
Now, compared to the DPS done by my fortunata. My fort uses an attack chain that does less damage then any of the widow chains because I like dominate's hold while the purple triangles are down. The loss in DPS is worth the increase in survivability IMO.
Fortunata Attack Chain
W/ Assault
Follow up = (50.72)*(1+97.49+2*.3+.15) = 138.21
Lunge = (123.67)*(1+.967+3*.3+.15) + 35.3 = 408.41
Strike = (95.49)*(1+97.49+2*.3+.15) = 260.2
Dominate = (77.17)*(1+.967+2*.3+.15) + 35.3 = 244.97
Take into account Mind Link every 90s = ((221.33*90)-1051.79)/90
DPS = 209.64
Quote:
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Originally Posted by TitanMan
What attack chain is most effective for Widows? or attack chains? I dont know how to calculate these things. Thanks
|
FU > Lunge > Slash > Strike > FU > Lunge > Strike > Slash > FU > Lunge > Strike > Swipe
.86/2.1/1.98/1.3/.86/2.1/1.3/1.98/.86/2.1/1.3/.985 in 14.52s = 1.22
Using the Softcapped build without ML I've been working on that chain comes out to be
W/ Assault + Procs
FU > Lunge > Slash > Strike > FU > Lunge > Strike > Slash > FU > Lunge > Strike > Swipe
.86/2.1/1.98/1.3/.86/2.1/1.3/1.98/.86/2.1/1.3/.985 in 14.52s = 1.22
Follow up = (50.72)*(1+.9749+2*.3+.15) = 138.21*3 = 414.63
Lunge = (123.67)*(1+.9749+3*.3+.15) = 374.09*3 = 1122.27
Strike = (95.49)*(1+.9749+2*.3+.15) = 260.2*3 = 780.6
Swipe = (57.84)*(1+.9364+2*.3+.15) + 14.36 = 169.74
Slash = (174.86)*(1+.967+2*.3+.15) + 35.35 = 510.44*2 = 1020.88
DPS = 241.6
Thanks for the help LuxunS.
If it wouldnt be too much trouble could you post an example build of the AV Night Widow, Im in the proces of leveling one for that purpose and dont know how to go about it. (I've never fought AVs solo) Thank you so much
Quote:
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Originally Posted by Optanite
Pretty sure -RES powers can be factored quite easily, regardless of target resistance (assuming you consistently single stack the -RES, or factor in downtime).
Resists effect your calcuated DPS and the -RES debuff equally. A -20% RES debuff will result in a overall 20% increase in DPS (not factoring in activation time here), even if the target has 99% resist or -100% resist (inherent / unresisted). If you guys were arguing damage types, we might have something more complicated here, but we are not. |
That's what I thought, and that's why PRAFs argument seemed off to me.
The above is accurate. It doesn't matter how much resistance an AV has, debuffing his resistance 20% will always increase your dps by 20%.
Math showing the animation time of Surveillance+redraw reduces that to nothing has yet to be presented.
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
Quote:
Actually if you read my post I talked about that, not sure if you missed it in the middle of all the math. Adding Surveillance DOES increase dps. The boost is not as significant as you may believe however. Only 13.84dps and I posted the math to back that up. If you find a mistake in the numbers feel free to point it out. |
Originally Posted by Wavicle
That's what I thought, and that's why PRAFs argument seemed off to me.
The above is accurate. It doesn't matter how much resistance an AV has, debuffing his resistance 20% will always increase your dps by 20%. Math showing the animation time of Surveillance+redraw reduces that to nothing has yet to be presented. |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by LuxunS
The DPS from that original attack chain however if Surveillance is added, goes up a bit. Of the chains i looked at (with that build), this one offers the best DPS.
With Build-up and Surveillance Bash > Pulverize > Bash > Shatter .82/1.25/.82/1.11 in 7.392 = 0.54 Bash = (55.61)*(1+.9583+.15) + 10.8 = 128.04*2 = 256.08*1.23 = 314.98*1.2 = 377.98 Pulverize = (91.2)*(1+.9583+.15) + 10.77 = 203.05*1.23 = 249.75*1.2 = 299.7 Shatter = (126.79)*(1+.9586+.15) = 267.35*1.23 = 328.84*1.2 = 394.61 Taking into account BU and Surveillance replacing Bash ((145.06*35.3)-188.99))/35.3 = ((139.71*20)-188.99))/20 DPS = 130.26 |
tl;dr
Wavicle is not wrong, it does create a 20% increase in damage. However, PRAF is not wrong either, because the increase in damage does not become "effective" until after the animation time's break in damage is overcome.
Quote:
The humorous part for me is that I completely agree that Banes are not ideal AV soloers, because of the long animation time (mainly that of Shatter and Poisonous Ray). The part I take issue with is the claim that you are better off not using Surveillance at all.
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Originally Posted by LuxunS
Actually if you read my post I talked about that, not sure if you missed it in the middle of all the math. Adding Surveillance DOES increase dps. The boost is not as significant as you may believe however. Only 13.84dps and I posted the math to back that up. If you find a mistake in the numbers feel free to point it out.
The reason for this is that when using surveillance it takes a bash out of the chain, after the first continuous attack chain you have a damage increase of 179 damage, but lost 188 from using surveillance in place of bash. It isn't until the 5th attack (roughly 9 seconds after casting surveillance) that the damage is increased. This leaves 11 out of every 20 seconds where the 20% dps buff is actually "effective". tl;dr Wavicle is not wrong, it does create a 20% increase in damage. However, PRAF is not wrong either, because the increase in damage does not become "effective" until after the animation time's break in damage is overcome. |
Wavicle, Energy/Energy Blaster, dinged 50 in Issue 4, summer of 2005.
@Wavicle, mostly on the Justice server.
I have almost the excact build of OP. I do really like the mace attacks and animations. I do have bust and single shot for longer range but used guns on other builds so liked something different so Mace it was. I do not have placate, took cloak instead but only lvl 40 right now. Is placate really that great? Thanks much.
I was looking around these boards and was kind of surprised to not see anything on Bane AV killers. A few people bring it up for NWs, but the most common complaint I see is that they have a lot of trouble surviving the hits that make it through due to low resists and low HP. With that in mind, I started to look at the advantages a Bane would have with the 20% HP buff and the resists with Bane armor. I threw together this build and was wondering what you guys think:
Villain Plan by Mids' Villain Designer 1.401
http://www.cohplanner.com/
Click this DataLink to open the build!
Huntsman Noir: Level 50 Natural Arachnos Soldier
Primary Power Set: Bane Spider Soldier
Secondary Power Set: Bane Spider Training
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Medicine
Power Pool: Leadership
Villain Profile:
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Level 1: Bash T'Death-Acc/Dmg:40(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx:40(3), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg:40(3), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:40(5), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:40(5), T'Death-Dam%:40(9)
Level 1: Bane Spider Armor Upgrade S'fstPrt-ResKB:30(A), S'fstPrt-ResDam/Def+:30(42)
Level 2: Combat Training: Defensive Ksmt-ToHit+:30(A), LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(9), LkGmblr-Def:50(31)
Level 4: Combat Training: Offensive Acc-I:50(A)
Level 6: Build Up GSFC-ToHit:50(A), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg:50(7), GSFC-ToHit/Rchg/EndRdx:50(7), GSFC-Rchg/EndRdx:50(43), GSFC-ToHit/EndRdx:50(43), GSFC-Build%:50(43)
Level 8: Hurdle Jump-I:50(A)
Level 10: Tactical Training: Maneuvers LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), LkGmblr-Def:50(11), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:50(11)
Level 12: Pulverize T'Death-Acc/Dmg:40(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx:40(13), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg:40(13), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:40(15), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:40(15), T'Death-Dam%:40(17)
Level 14: Poisonous Ray Dev'n-Acc/Dmg:50(A), Dev'n-Dmg/Rchg:50(17), Dev'n-Dmg/EndRdx:50(25), Achilles-DefDeb/Rchg:20(27), Achilles-DefDeb:20(29), Achilles-ResDeb%:20(29)
Level 16: Health Numna-Heal:50(A), Mrcl-Heal:40(37), Numna-Regen/Rcvry+:30(40), Mrcl-Rcvry+:40(42), RgnTis-Regen+:30(45)
Level 18: Shatter T'Death-Acc/Dmg:40(A), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx:40(19), T'Death-Dmg/Rchg:40(19), T'Death-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:40(23), T'Death-Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:40(23), T'Death-Dam%:40(25)
Level 20: Stamina P'Shift-End%:50(A), P'Shift-EndMod:50(21), P'Shift-EndMod/Rchg:50(21), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc:50(42), P'Shift-EndMod/Acc/Rchg:50(46), P'Shift-Acc/Rchg:50(48)
Level 22: Mental Training Run-I:50(A)
Level 24: Cloaking Device LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), LkGmblr-Def:50(37), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:50(37)
Level 26: Placate RechRdx-I:50(A), RechRdx-I:50(27)
Level 28: Surveillance ShldBrk-DefDeb:30(A), ShldBrk-Acc/DefDeb:30(31), ShldBrk-Acc/Rchg:30(31), ShldBrk-DefDeb/EndRdx/Rchg:30(34), ShldBrk-Acc/EndRdx/Rchg:30(36), Achilles-ResDeb%:20(36)
Level 30: Tactical Training: Leadership AdjTgt-ToHit:21(A), AdjTgt-ToHit/EndRdx:21(36), AdjTgt-EndRdx/Rchg:21(50), AdjTgt-ToHit/Rchg:50(50), AdjTgt-ToHit/EndRdx/Rchg:50(50)
Level 32: Crowd Control Oblit-Dmg:50(A), Oblit-Acc/Rchg:50(33), Oblit-Dmg/Rchg:50(33), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/Rchg:50(33), Oblit-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx/Rchg:50(34), Oblit-%Dam:50(34)
Level 35: Tactical Training: Assault EndRdx-I:50(A)
Level 38: Call Reinforcements BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg:50(A), BldM'dt-Dmg/EndRdx:50(39), BldM'dt-Acc/EndRdx:50(39), BldM'dt-Acc/Dmg/EndRdx:50(39), BldM'dt-Acc:50(40), BldM'dt-Dmg:40(40)
Level 41: Aid Other Heal-I:50(A)
Level 44: Aid Self Mrcl-Heal:40(A), Mrcl-Heal/Rchg:40(45), Mrcl-Heal/EndRdx:40(45), Mrcl-Heal/EndRdx/Rchg:40(46), Mrcl-EndRdx/Rchg:40(46)
Level 47: Maneuvers LkGmblr-Rchg+:50(A), LkGmblr-Def:50(48), LkGmblr-Def/EndRdx:50(48)
Level 49: Assault EndRdx-I:50(A)
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Level 1: Brawl Acc-I:50(A)
Level 1: Sprint Clrty-Stlth:50(A)
Level 2: Rest RechRdx-I:50(A)
Level 1: Conditioning
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Set Bonus Totals:
19% DamageBuff(Smashing)
19% DamageBuff(Lethal)
19% DamageBuff(Fire)
19% DamageBuff(Cold)
19% DamageBuff(Energy)
19% DamageBuff(Negative)
19% DamageBuff(Toxic)
19% DamageBuff(Psionic)
11.8% Defense(Smashing)
11.8% Defense(Lethal)
12.7% Defense(Fire)
12.7% Defense(Cold)
6.13% Defense(Energy)
6.13% Defense(Negative)
3% Defense(Psionic)
20.5% Defense(Melee)
9.25% Defense(Ranged)
19.6% Defense(AoE)
29% Enhancement(Accuracy)
40% Enhancement(RechargeTime)
5% Enhancement(Heal)
10% FlySpeed
168.7 HP (15.7%) HitPoints
10% JumpHeight
10% JumpSpeed
Knockback (Mag -4)
Knockup (Mag -4)
MezResist(Confused) 2.5%
MezResist(Held) 10.8%
MezResist(Immobilize) 10.8%
MezResist(Sleep) 2.5%
MezResist(Stun) 6.35%
MezResist(Terrorized) 2.5%
15.5% (0.27 End/sec) Recovery
64% (3.43 HP/sec) Regeneration
1.26% Resistance(Energy)
1.26% Resistance(Negative)
10% RunSpeed
(Note: Cloaking device is not turned on as it gives unsuppressed numbers. Add 5.78% defense onto that and it brings it right to the softcap.)
Capped defenses, token resists, a 20% HP buff, aid self, and +50% damage, all with a recovery rate above 2 end/sec and a 23 HP/sec regen rate. I was considering a build with tough/weave instead of aid self, but I felt the heal would be more useful overall than the extra resists to smashing and lethal damage only. Any feedback is appreciated!