Looking to build a new computer, Aug/Sep 2009
By
darksky7700,
Posted on: 2009-08-05 15:06 in ALL ACCESS Gameplay Technical Issues Bugs
ArsTechnica has a great build guide. Moderate build comes out to ~$1300 with a nice monitor and speakers and high-end build comes out to around $2700. I like the article because they tell you why they recommend each part with out going into mind numbing detail (I'm looking at you TomsHardware) and they list a couple good alternatives for every part.
http://arstechnica.com/hardware/guid...ide-200807.ars
For $2K I would lean toward a Core i7-920 (or whatever is the current low end version is) with 6GB of DDR3 as oppose to a high end Core 2 quad.
Here are a few more guides from other sites.
bit-tech.net - What Hardware Should I Buy?
The Tech Report's summer 2009 system guide
AnandTech - System Buyers' Guide: $700 to $1700
Edit: Why a 2.66GHz i7-920 and not a 3.0GHz Core 2 Q9650 or better? Because right now, for the price (the i7-920 is $40 cheaper than the Q9650 at NewEgg) the i7-920 is generally faster on multicore tasks and pretty much on par in games compared to the Q9650.
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$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
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Core i7-920 is the best "value" right now. It's not far off from it's 940 brother.
Same was true of the nVidia GTX-275. Technically low end, gobs faster than any other nVidia besides the 285 and 295.
Here's what I threw together in June:
http://secure.newegg.com/WishList/Pu...Number=6954069
Modern video cards are longer than the motherboard, so make sure your case is big enough.
I have, literally, an eighth of an inch between my video card and my hard drive bays.
Other than that, everything is simple if you've assembled a computer in the last 7 years.
I don't have time to post links right now, but for just over $1900 shipped (from Newegg):
Case - Antec P183
Power Supply - Corsair 850watts
Motherboard - Gigabyte X58
CPU - Intel Core I7 920
RAM - 6GB OCZ (3x2GB)
Graphics Card - 2 x XFX GTX285
Hard Drive - Western Digital 640GB SATAII
Optical Drive - LG DVD Burner
OS - Windows Vista Home Premium w/SP1 x64 (with free Windows 7 upgrade coupon)
Monitor - ASUS 24" 1920x1080
-Wolf sends
Thanks for the input everyone who replied. Been doing more reading and research.
Also got a suggestion via email from a friend to wait till windows 7 actually ships and wait on direct X 11 cards. What do folks here think of that advice? After six years on the same mother board and a busted old optical drive (figured I'm replacing the machine soon, why buy a new drive now, right?), I'm itching for a new machine. Is it worth putting off this purchase another 2-5 months?
Things I can eliminate from my purchase: no display needed. no sound system. on board sound will be fine for now.
Big question: what do people think of SSD's? Are they worth the $300 or so dollars? With gaming where do you notice the difference? i.e., do CoX zones load almost instantly relative to a traditional hard drive? Any experience how these things work with graphics applications, like hi-res photo editing? Do 30 meg images open in an instant? Or is that more of a RAM and processor issue these days? (If I got an SSD I probably would also get a 1 or 1.5 tb drive for swappable storage. In my non superheroing life I'm an artist and sometimes work with some heavy files, both for myself and for clients.)
Early conclusions: I definitely want a motherboard that can be expanded over the years. I'll likely be going with just one video card. (If you do two cards using crossfire (is that it?), do the cards need to be identical? I've read decent things thus far about that nVidia 285 and 295. but are they just not worth the price point currently? My thoughts were to maybe buy one this year and later when they become "lower end" as new stuff is introduced, buy a second one.)
Again thanks for all the input thus far. Sorry for the lack of structure in my questions above. Shooting from the hip as I feel my way through this. Though I can manage with it, hardware and selecting the right stuff is not my forte.
With your budget, especially if you intend to use any of the parts suggested so far, I would recommend that you go ahead and upgrade your display.
It makes no sense to build a rig that can run apps at high resolutions with all of the bells and whistles turned up, and then display it all on a 17" monitor.
I would also counsel against the neccesity of waiting for a DX11 card.
How many games require DX10 right now?
How long has it been since DX10 was introduced?
There will be a significant gap from the introduction of DX11 to availability of DX11 titles, and at that point, those same titles will still have a DX10 rendering path, in fact, they may even still have DX9 rendering paths.
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These are good points to consider. Thanks!
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Originally Posted by Gamma_Guardian
I would also counsel against the neccesity of waiting for a DX11 card.
How many games require DX10 right now? How long has it been since DX10 was introduced? There will be a significant gap from the introduction of DX11 to availability of DX11 titles, and at that point, those same titles will still have a DX10 rendering path, in fact, they may even still have DX9 rendering paths. |
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The advice to "just wait a little bit longer" is, ultimately, a self-defeating one. You can ALWAYS get something better by "just waiting". But it's really easy to just never buy, and stuff still gets better.|
Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan
Thanks for the input everyone who replied. Been doing more reading and research.
Also got a suggestion via email from a friend to wait till windows 7 actually ships and wait on direct X 11 cards. What do folks here think of that advice? |
You've set yourself a Aug/Sept timeframe. Buy and build for your budget in the Aug/Sept timeframe. Will it be as crazy-good as a system built 3-4 months down the road when Win7 releases? Maybe not, but it should STILL scream.
If you're THAT dead-set on Win7, do a temp install (nothing important installed) of the Win7 RC to get you by for a few months. Then, when Win7 releases, buy the full-blown OS.
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| After six years on the same mother board and a busted old optical drive (figured I'm replacing the machine soon, why buy a new drive now, right?), I'm itching for a new machine. Is it worth putting off this purchase another 2-5 months? |
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| Things I can eliminate from my purchase: no display needed. no sound system. on board sound will be fine for now. |
Quote:
| Big question: what do people think of SSD's? Are they worth the $300 or so dollars? With gaming where do you notice the difference? i.e., do CoX zones load almost instantly relative to a traditional hard drive? Any experience how these things work with graphics applications, like hi-res photo editing? Do 30 meg images open in an instant? Or is that more of a RAM and processor issue these days? (If I got an SSD I probably would also get a 1 or 1.5 tb drive for swappable storage. In my non superheroing life I'm an artist and sometimes work with some heavy files, both for myself and for clients.) |
Why a pair of drives? Disk I/O. Chucking the paging file off onto a separate drive frees the primary drive of I/O responsibility for paging. This usually gives a small performance bump to systems with frequent drive access.
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| Early conclusions: I definitely want a motherboard that can be expanded over the years. I'll likely be going with just one video card. (If you do two cards using crossfire (is that it?), do the cards need to be identical? I've read decent things thus far about that nVidia 285 and 295. but are they just not worth the price point currently? My thoughts were to maybe buy one this year and later when they become "lower end" as new stuff is introduced, buy a second one.) |
FatherXMas has fairly sound advice, as do most of the people responding to you.
Would post a config myself. But it's time for work and I need to get the heck offline.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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You don't want to be depending on an SSD, their long term reliability is uncertain.|
Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan
Big question: what do people think of SSD's? Are they worth the $300 or so dollars? With gaming where do you notice the difference? i.e., do CoX zones load almost instantly relative to a traditional hard drive? Any experience how these things work with graphics applications, like hi-res photo editing? Do 30 meg images open in an instant? Or is that more of a RAM and processor issue these days? (If I got an SSD I probably would also get a 1 or 1.5 tb drive for swappable storage. In my non superheroing life I'm an artist and sometimes work with some heavy files, both for myself and for clients.)
|
How SSDs work
Microsoft blog
Another comment
Another article
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As others have said ...
I would go with your time frame. I7-920 processor is very nice, and can be found for around 199 on sale (Microcenter/ egg ) To jump up .40 ghz you can pay double for it. That is why a lot of ppl are saying get the 920 processor.
I am using a Evga X3 SLI x58 board with 12 gigs of ram.
Video card get at least 1 275 card. If you play games that use SLI then get a 2nd. If Coh is your primary game. SLI works but not in a lot of places the upgrade to the 275 alone would improve your wold of gaming. (use price of the 2nd card to get a new monitor 22" at least)
OS windows 7 should be out in Oct and the 64bit version is better than the vista counter part (I use RC1 with mine right now).
some thing to look at but are not needed would be a blu ray player (~99.oo) and you can use that system to watch movies as well.
I would stay away from SSD drives. They wont last as long and cost wise you could get a Raptor drive 10,000 RPM drive cheaper for added speed.
Lead Squirrel at Dr. E Spider robotic site #643
Nothing saids its your spot like an ourob. Portal dropped on the ground.
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SSDs are very much a mixed bag when it comes to gaming. There are a number of weird caveats; they simply aren't a direct replacement for traditional rotary magnetic media drives that operates the same. I strongly suggest doing some additional research. |
Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan
Big question: what do people think of SSD's? Are they worth the $300 or so dollars? With gaming where do you notice the difference? i.e., do CoX zones load almost instantly relative to a traditional hard drive? Any experience how these things work with graphics applications, like hi-res photo editing? Do 30 meg images open in an instant? Or is that more of a RAM and processor issue these days? (If I got an SSD I probably would also get a 1 or 1.5 tb drive for swappable storage. In my non superheroing life I'm an artist and sometimes work with some heavy files, both for myself and for clients.)
|
In general, SSDs are *great* for small random reads, good for large block reads, so-so for large block writes, and terrible for small random writes. There are tricks for mitigating the last one, and how they are handled varies from chipset to chipset; it's one of the main differences between manufacturers and drives. In general, I'd not recommend putting your system drive on a SSD for a gaming performance machine, where even a very occasional couple of second delay hang at an unpredictable time could be unpleasant. On the other hand, it should work quite well for zone loading, as that's almost entirely reads, and is only updated every so often and in non-critical situations.
One of the weird things about SSDs is that they get effectively slower on writes as they get fuller. Some of the expensive "performance" SSDs are basically sold as much smaller than their actual space; their extra performance really comes from the drive not actually being full even when it looks like it is to the user.
Windows 7 supposedly has much better support for SSDs, and the emerging standard drive commands to better manage them.
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Getting a lot of good input here. Thanks for all the advice thus far.
Another big question, because I honestly have no clue: Stand alone physics acceleration? Is this still even worth pursuing? Or are there little physics dedicated processors worked into the current generation of graphics cards and this is already taken care of?
Regarding SLI and dual video cards: currently, my main game is CoH, but I will be playing the field. There are things I have missed, like some of the graphic intensive first person actiony RPG's (Oblivion, Fallout 3, Bioshock, GTA IV and a number of other tempting titles friends have suggested over the recent years). I'm imagining THESE games and others not yet even announced for publication of this ilk are the sort that tend to take advantage of dual video cards, is that correct? Is it worth the bump?
(The budget is there. Just sorting out where to focus it. And again, display is not an issue. Using a 17 inch flat screen now, but I have a dedicated video editing system with a nice cinema display. A KVM switcher could easily clear up my physical desk space whilst giving me the 1920 wide if I want it... only issue, what to do during long **** After Effects renders. When babysitting those I tend to get in a bunch of CoH time. 
Perhaps I shelve the 17" and bring it out if I know I have a render fest coming up based...)
Again, thank you thank you all for the input.
At this point the i7-920 core sounds like a no brainer from everything here, every email I've gotten from techie friends and almost every summer of 2009 build guide I've read. Still struggling with which motherboard to go with... any input there? I've seen gigabyte mentioned repeatedly. Back when I built this machine, Asus was highly thought of but I've read some disparaging comments on their recent products but nothing specific. Thoughts?
Edit: one more question: Anyone out there have experience with complicated Nurbs modeling for manufacturing? I've been dipping my feet deeper and deeper into this pool. Aside from gaming, this is the one place where my current PC is starting to really show its age. Will my video card(s) really help with this? Or other than on screen rendering (Rhino mostly), is this mostly core processing and RAM that will help boost my performance there?
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In one word. No.| Stand-alone physics accelleration. Is it worth pursuing? |
While such cards were NICE when GPUs were less powerful, nowadays it's a waste of money (like those stupid "Killer NIC" network cards).
If you're looking for it for strictly CoH, I'd still say no. CoH has a fairly old, built-in version of the PhysX engine. Unfortunately, newer nVidia cards with "PhysX" don't recognize this older software.
Anyhow, if you're running something comparable to a GTX260 or greater, I REALLY wouldn't worry about it. Even at 1900x1080, I have everything cranked to *DROOL!* and it still runs fast.
Clicking on the linked image above will take you off the City of Heroes site. However, the guides will be linked back here.
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Not worth the money.. even when Physx was a stand alone card it was not worth the 100.oo for it.|
Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan
Another big question, because I honestly have no clue: Stand alone physics acceleration? Is this still even worth pursuing? Or are there little physics dedicated processors worked into the current generation of graphics cards and this is already taken care of?
|
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Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan
Regarding SLI and dual video cards: currently, my main game is CoH, but I will be playing the field. There are things I have missed, like some of the graphic intensive first person actiony RPG's (Oblivion, Fallout 3, Bioshock, GTA IV and a number of other tempting titles friends have suggested over the recent years). I'm imagining THESE games and others not yet even announced for publication of this ilk are the sort that tend to take advantage of dual video cards, is that correct? Is it worth the bump?
|
Quote:
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Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan
(The budget is there. Just sorting out where to focus it. And again, display is not an issue. Using a 17 inch flat screen now, but I have a dedicated video editing system with a nice cinema display. A KVM switcher could easily clear up my physical desk space whilst giving me the 1920 wide if I want it... only issue, what to do during long **** After Effects renders. When babysitting those I tend to get in a bunch of CoH time.
Perhaps I shelve the 17" and bring it out if I know I have a render fest coming up based...) |
Quote:
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Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan
At this point the i7-920 core sounds like a no brainer from everything here, every email I've gotten from techie friends and almost every summer of 2009 build guide I've read. Still struggling with which motherboard to go with... any input there? I've seen gigabyte mentioned repeatedly. Back when I built this machine, Asus was highly thought of but I've read some disparaging comments on their recent products but nothing specific. Thoughts?
Edit: one more question: Anyone out there have experience with complicated Nurbs modeling for manufacturing? I've been dipping my feet deeper and deeper into this pool. Aside from gaming, this is the one place where my current PC is starting to really show its age. Will my video card(s) really help with this? Or other than on screen rendering (Rhino mostly), is this mostly core processing and RAM that will help boost my performance there? |
I have the Evga board as I stated before, my only issue was the 1st one worked for about 23 hours then got the bios FF issue. 2nd one has not had any issues todate.
get one that is SLI certified even if you go with one video card (gives you the options to add more laters on)
one other I would say get a Zalman CNPS 9500 or 9700 HS to help with the cololing during rendering (Coh uses about 17% of the i7 920 cpu power)
Lead Squirrel at Dr. E Spider robotic site #643
Nothing saids its your spot like an ourob. Portal dropped on the ground.
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Good suggestion. May be able to. Will need an adapter since the dedicated video system is a Mac. It's really about keeping an eye on render batches and progress. AE, especially with plugins, likes to crash every so many hours. Some of my renders get upwards of 40 hours since I'm working at HD and higher resolutions and often with very complicated and extensive (though visually subtle) layer structures.|
Originally Posted by prvtslacker
can you do the renders on the 17" screen and test the play back on the newer screen. been a while since I done any on after effects.
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The more I think about this though--going down to one monitor on my desktop/worktable (with the exception of render days)--the more I think I want to do this. Space is valuable here in Brooklyn. And 3' of desk space is huge!
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Well if you don't mind doing a total format and reinstall then it doesn't matter. There are conditions where Windows 7 won't need a format first but it's a mixture of what OS and license you currently have on your PC and what version and license of Windows 7 you purchased. As for Dx11, are there any major games that are even using Dx10.1? And the news of Dx11 GPUs ship dates are rather muddled. I wouldn't worry about Dx11 for a while.|
Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan
Thanks for the input everyone who replied. Been doing more reading and research.
Also got a suggestion via email from a friend to wait till windows 7 actually ships and wait on direct X 11 cards. What do folks here think of that advice? After six years on the same mother board and a busted old optical drive (figured I'm replacing the machine soon, why buy a new drive now, right?), I'm itching for a new machine. Is it worth putting off this purchase another 2-5 months? |
Quote:
|
Things I can eliminate from my purchase: no display needed. no sound system. on board sound will be fine for now. Big question: what do people think of SSD's? Are they worth the $300 or so dollars? With gaming where do you notice the difference? i.e., do CoX zones load almost instantly relative to a traditional hard drive? Any experience how these things work with graphics applications, like hi-res photo editing? Do 30 meg images open in an instant? Or is that more of a RAM and processor issue these days? (If I got an SSD I probably would also get a 1 or 1.5 tb drive for swappable storage. In my non superheroing life I'm an artist and sometimes work with some heavy files, both for myself and for clients.) |
Quote:
| Early conclusions: I definitely want a motherboard that can be expanded over the years. I'll likely be going with just one video card. (If you do two cards using crossfire (is that it?), do the cards need to be identical? I've read decent things thus far about that nVidia 285 and 295. but are they just not worth the price point currently? My thoughts were to maybe buy one this year and later when they become "lower end" as new stuff is introduced, buy a second one.) |
As for buying a motherboard that can be expanded over the years, well future proofing a motherboard is getting tougher all the time. Don't expect any faster CPUs for the Socket 775 motherboards, Intel is going with their Core i5 and i7 series (note here, not all i7s will be socket 1366, thank you Intel marketing for obfuscating the issue) for their new mainstream CPUs which will be hitting the market shortly. USB 3.0 and SATA 3.0 is right around the corner but PCIe V3.0 is now delayed. AMD's Socket AM3 should be stable for a few years but you still have the SATA and USB improvements coming soon. The only thing I can safely say is DDR3 isn't going anywhere in the foreseeable future. There will always be new motherboard technologies right around the corner, you just have to realize that whatever you buy today will be obsolete (well, not have all the latest and greatest technologies at least) within 6 months and suck it up.
Quote:
| Again thanks for all the input thus far. Sorry for the lack of structure in my questions above. Shooting from the hip as I feel my way through this. Though I can manage with it, hardware and selecting the right stuff is not my forte. |
Father Xmas - Level 50 Ice/Ice Tanker - Victory
$725 and $1350 parts lists --- My guide to computer components
Tempus unum hominem manet
The only thing that *may* be worth waiting for is Windows 7 to ship in October. Of course, installing a new OS is easy enough for most users. True, you could do the "upgrade" path but it's not recommended for the most part, from what I've read. I guess it depends on how fast you want the new 'puter and how you feel about installing a new OS. There's really going to be no reason (besides cost) to stick with Vista once Win 7 ships, my opinion only.
COx is running great on my Win7 RC fwiw.
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Just got another email today from a friend in Chicago that says basically what you say here. Decisions decisions. Well I'll keep shopping and working out my options.|
Originally Posted by darksky7700
The only thing that *may* be worth waiting for is Windows 7 to ship in October. Of course, installing a new OS is easy enough for most users. True, you could do the "upgrade" path but it's not recommended for the most part, from what I've read. I guess it depends on how fast you want the new 'puter and how you feel about installing a new OS. There's really going to be no reason (besides cost) to stick with Vista once Win 7 ships, my opinion only.
COx is running great on my Win7 RC fwiw. |
Is Vista really that bad? Or Win7 THAT much better? Believe it or not, I'm still on XP pro.
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As far as performance is concerned with COx, Vista -is- that bad and Win7 -is- that much better, in my experience at least and I am no Vista hater. I used it for quite awhile but until Win7 RC was released, I used to run an XP partition just for COx. My system is no slouch, but on Vista there is a fair amount of stuttering and choppiness. I really had no issues an any other game.|
Originally Posted by SilverAgeFan
Just got another email today from a friend in Chicago that says basically what you say here. Decisions decisions. Well I'll keep shopping and working out my options.
Is Vista really that bad? Or Win7 THAT much better? Believe it or not, I'm still on XP pro. |
I find that Win7 runs COx as well, if not better than XP regarding smoothness and framerates, on my rig anyway.
I'm currently researching suggestions for a new computer priced at $2000.
)
I'll be using the display (and for now mouse and keyboard) I currently have. Simple single flat monitor, 17 inch. No biggie. But I figure I can upgrade that later if I feel the need.
What I'm after is a set-up that is reasonably upgradable over the years. (i.e. if one video card will suit me fine for now, but later on I upgrade to something that warrants two or if system reqs move in that direction, I have the flexibility to do so.)
In the past I've read what looked like pretty good advice regarding what setups work well together. But I know these things get outdated quickly as new components become available, existing stuff drops in price, etc.
So if any techies out there are in the mood, would love to see some current suggestions for $2000 builds based on what is available this and next month. Is there anything coming out that I REALLY should consider waiting 2 or 3 months for? I have been putting this off for a couple years and it is a bit overdue already. (6 year old mother board!
Thanks in advance
Also, it's been years since I've done this on a whole new system. How is setup these days? Is it even more plug and play than say 5-6 years ago, installing an OS and all that on a virgin machine? I've got a couple friends out of state that can help me via phone if need be. But I'm assuming that you still get a heck of a lot more for your buck building it yourself. Is this correct?