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"BTW - Is Shakespeare's work considered great because it was written well when first published or because it's had hundreds of years of tinkering to improve it?"
Wait, what? I know there've been some slight tweaks — notably converting archaic to modern English, depending which version you read — but there haven't been *that* many changes since the early folios.
Something like the OED or any other non-fiction book that *does* get updated a lot might've been a better example :P
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I suppose he was ironic. 
That said, if I recall correctly, folios were compiled long after plays themselves were written and played, with who-knows-what alterations inbetween performances Plus, there are 2 different endings to King Lear, 2nd one being written much later and not even by Shakespeare himself. Yet the play was played almost exclusively with that, happy, ending for a century, because audience liked it better. And never mind that theatre is a bit special case, - each performance is unique, actors learn from each other, etc. So, modern actors may play from the same script as The Globe's actors did back then, but they do it completely differently now.
As for my original statement about IDs, - oh, surely, if the author gives a dam, if the arc was played, if, if, if. But high-ID arcs by definition WEREN't played enough. I know what I'm talking about, I started to work on my 2 arcs literally 5 minutes after I14 went live, and did hardly anything else in the game since then and until the last week (outside of the game, I have a job and 2 hours commute). One of the arcs has no bugs now. Ok, it probably has no bugs, and still has a lots of typos, although I guess that's not as typical.
Got 14 playthroughs (as per badge's counter), 4 (unsolicited) comments (and 2 "official" reviews). And no, I still won't tell the id's, like, ahem, some more agressive promoters do. But I will in my "Open Igorance of the Recent Framers of MEOW!" thread, which is in development.
I'm an idiot 
Ahem. To slightly change the subject: Shakespeare walks into a pub, and the barman goes "Get out, yer bard"
*getting my coat*
Cancelled in Three - MA ID #34608. Please play and comment! Top 10 placing in Projectionist's MA contest!
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folios were compiled long after plays themselves were written and played, with who-knows-what alterations inbetween performances
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Yeah - I knew when I picked the Bard that arguments like this may come up. But Eco/Shakespeare still provide a decent general point regarding the fallacy of older stories being better due to a long history of improvements and updates.
At least Bacon hasn't been mentioned yet - phew!
By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
Funny: Ee-Ai-Ee-Ai-Oh! #3662 * The foul-mouthed Handyman! #1076 * City of Norms #132944
Serious: To Save A Single World (#83744) * Marketing Opportunity (#83747)
I heard Bacon had swine flu.
I really should do something about this signature.
All very true, 3dent, all very true. I particularly like the post-MA folio of King Lear which ends thusly:
Albany:
The weight of this dumb arc we must obey;
Where are the glowies? This mission is ****!
The EBs killed the mobs, the glowies suck,
You'll never see the HOF tough luck.
Cancelled in Three - MA ID #34608. Please play and comment! Top 10 placing in Projectionist's MA contest!
Me wants Elizabethan bardy-bacon arc nowz - geif plz
By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
Funny: Ee-Ai-Ee-Ai-Oh! #3662 * The foul-mouthed Handyman! #1076 * City of Norms #132944
Serious: To Save A Single World (#83744) * Marketing Opportunity (#83747)
[ QUOTE ]
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folios were compiled long after plays themselves were written and played, with who-knows-what alterations inbetween performances
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Yeah - I knew when I picked the Bard that arguments like this may come up. But Eco/Shakespeare still provide a decent general point regarding the fallacy of older stories being better due to a long history of improvements and updates.
At least Bacon hasn't been mentioned yet - phew!
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It doesn't. Precisely because we aren't talking centuries here, we're talking months. A 5-mission, story-rich arc consists of about 10-20 kb of text, (a 2-4 k words short story) mission objectives needing, say, 20 complete playthroughs to debug them, and "unforseen contingences". Connceiving and writing a decrnt short story requires time. It would vary greatly, but I think 15 hours would be typical.
Playing through requires time, say, 2 hours per complete playthrough, or 40 hours total. Adding some time for unforseen contingencies we get about 70 hours, - a two full-time weeks, for an arc.
So, any worthwhile non-beta arcs what aren't buggy/typo-ridden/just plain uninteresting should start appear about now.
Then, some time for arc to pick up steam, that is, to be played by someone who isn't your friend, SG mate, etc. and get "real" 5 stars... You''ve got the idea.
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post-MA folio of King Lear
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Thread's gone for ever!
I know when one is dead, and when one lives;
It's dead as earth. Don't even lend me a looking glass.
Or, in modern English 
, k, this thread is now officially derailed.
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It doesn't. Precisely because we aren't talking centuries here, we're talking months. A 5-mission, story-rich arc consists of about 10-20 kb of text, (a 2-4 k words short story) mission objectives needing, say, 20 complete playthroughs to debug them, and "unforseen contingences". Connceiving and writing a decrnt short story requires time. It would vary greatly, but I think 15 hours would be typical.
Playing through requires time, say, 2 hours per complete playthrough, or 40 hours total. Adding some time for unforseen contingencies we get about 70 hours, - a two full-time weeks, for an arc.
So, any worthwhile non-beta arcs what aren't buggy/typo-ridden/just plain uninteresting should start appear about now.
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I think you overestimate how long it takes. Short stories can be written and proofread much faster by those who are in practice and/or have fast typing skills - and a 5 mission arc with large maps can take 45mins to test with the right character (I use my Bane or Stalker to ghost past the non-essential bits of mine to test the encounters/text I need to test).
Though yeah I'd probably have taken two week's worth of evenings writing each of my two existing arcs if I'd only been playing my usual 2-4 hours per evening 5-6 days per week, with longer at weekends - assuming I didn't totally give up normal play during that time - but "lucky" for me I've been horribly ill lately, signed off work, and MA helps take my mind off it.
Hence my two published arcs, which I estimate have taken maybe 25 hours each (the 3-mission one because it was my learning experience, and the 5 mission one from size alone) - and I defy you to find any typos or grammar errors (the few arguable ones I missed were found by my rigorous testers, and those who have given me feedback since publishing).
As for the quality, well, that's your call - I won't say its Shakespeare, but then I've never been a huge fan of his despite studying him in depth at school and uni (I don't like Dickens much either if you want to get the stake ready for a burning 
) - and not everything is to everyone's taste, but my arcs are very story focused (/shameless plug).
Not sure if I'll use the SFMA tagging yet unless it really takes off - it might scare off those not in the know (I think the metric I read once was that only 5% of an MMO playerbase read the forums, let alone post on them). Might be worth waiting to see what the I15 MA browser update adds - we may get a category system.
Obviously I now have to make an MA arc where Shakespeare and Dickens team up to gank your toon :P
Cancelled in Three - MA ID #34608. Please play and comment! Top 10 placing in Projectionist's MA contest!
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I think you overestimate how long it takes. Short stories can be written and proofread much faster by those who are in practice and/or have fast typing skills -
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They can, no doubt. They also can be written much slower.
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and a 5 mission arc with large maps can take 45mins to test with the right character (I use my Bane or Stalker to ghost past the non-essential bits of mine to test the encounters/text I need to test).
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I used to think like that. Until these intermittent spawn failures have shown me the error of my ways. At least 3 ghosting runs and one complete playtrough after any major objective change or it's bugged, more for fancy missions with conditional bosses and so on. 5 complete playtroughs before publishing. I'm still to test my 1st arc up to that standard, this weekend maybe. And yes, there was a major problrem I've caught on the 5th run once.
Again, this is probably because I don't know yet what exactly causes bugs and how to avoid them, but almost everyone is in the same situation right now.
RE not liking The Great Literature... I have a different list of writers I can't stand, despite everyone else calling them great, but I do have it. Everyone who really cares does have one, I suspect.
Well that's a hell of a lot of replies 
Just a few points I'd make -
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I tended to find 4 star arcs w/higher numbers (30-50) to be worlds better than 5 star arcs w/10 votes, for example
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Yup, agree with you Xem, trying to give other arcs a chance that have less run throughs though.
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Also, SFMA is not an indicative of quality.
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In my opinion it damn well should be to an extent. If you're claiming your arc is story focused, you've gone to the bother of marking it as such, etc then you should at least have gotten most of they typo's out and tested it a bit. It doesn't feel very story focused to have (for example) an objective saying "Destroy 4 x" which then completes when you kill one x or where the contact says "Hi target" to you as the very first thing you see - unbelievably immersion breaking and easy to pick up from rudimentary testing - surely refine your arc before using the tag makes sense.
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the author tries to make a Story Focused Mission Arc. If he succeeds or not is is another thing. There is no guarantee that you will like arcs, even ones with a lot of votes.
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Yep, fine with that. Don't mind a story / arc I'm not fond of, it's the broken ones I've got an issue with.
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Low ID means an arc was in beta. Which means it has been around longer, which hopefully means author had time to both make a decent story and throughly test it.
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Although picked up later in the thread, this just isn't true for two reasons -
1) A large proportion of beta arcs have lain untouched since beta including the ones that had to be stripped down after the 10% size bloat when I14 went live which caused lots of bugs.
2) Saving an arc locally, unpublishing and republishing an arc gives it a new ID. The reason I know this is because I did it. The arc in my sig was around in beta, has been refined by over 40 playthroughs over the time since beta and has had numerous bugs identified and removed however you won't be able to tell that by arc ID. The reason I've unpublished and republished the arc is simple - it's now in what I consider to be polished enough state to be judged from a clean slate as a finished product rather than a changing arc under constant refinement which is why I've now added the SFMA tag to it. I also didn't realise it would be looked down at for having a high ID number
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My advice at the moment would be to use the City Of Guides missions as a reasonable list to play.
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Yes, I wholeheartedly agree - have been working my way through them and there's quite a few gems on there.
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1) A large proportion of beta arcs have lain untouched since beta including the ones that had to be stripped down after the 10% size bloat when I14 went live which caused lots of bugs.
2) Saving an arc locally, unpublishing and republishing an arc gives it a new ID. The reason I know this is because I did it. The arc in my sig was around in beta, has been refined by over 40 playthroughs over the time since beta and has had numerous bugs identified and removed however you won't be able to tell that by arc ID. The reason I've unpublished and republished the arc is simple - it's now in what I consider to be polished enough state to be judged from a clean slate as a finished product rather than a changing arc under constant refinement which is why I've now added the SFMA tag to it. I also didn't realise it would be looked down at for having a high ID number
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1) Well, there is that too, and thwere were many bad arcs in beta too. But on average, I think I'm still right, - those extra few weeks mean something.
2) Unless you need a global overhaul of several missions. you needn't unpublish, - you can edit a published arc, and republish it with the same ID. I unpuublished one of my arcs because it was made unplayable in certain situations by multiple bugs and one of the missions plain sucked, but to just fix dialogue, add clues, etc. unpublishing isn't needed.
ADD| And I didn't say low IDs are the law of the Universe or something, - it's just how the situation looks to me right now, and I don't expect it to last long.
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Also, SFMA is not an indicative of quality.
[/ QUOTE ]
In my opinion it damn well should be to an extent. If you're claiming your arc is story focused, you've gone to the bother of marking it as such, etc then you should at least have gotten most of they typo's out and tested it a bit. It doesn't feel very story focused to have (for example) an objective saying "Destroy 4 x" which then completes when you kill one x or where the contact says "Hi target" to you as the very first thing you see - unbelievably immersion breaking and easy to pick up from rudimentary testing - surely refine your arc before using the tag makes sense.
[ QUOTE ]
the author tries to make a Story Focused Mission Arc. If he succeeds or not is is another thing. There is no guarantee that you will like arcs, even ones with a lot of votes.
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Yep, fine with that. Don't mind a story / arc I'm not fond of, it's the broken ones I've got an issue with.
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The point is that it is the author who decides to flag something as SFMA not the readers. The only thing a reader can do is judge the story on the fact that it is tagged in a certain way. With SFMA I expect at least a story, if not then I will rate accordingly and probably try to warn the author that he mistagged.
We're all crackling up over that one PRAF *ducks*
Mind of Gaia lvl 50 Defiant's first Mind/Storm 'troller.
Deadly Doc 50 Dark/Dark Corr
and lots more on Pinnacle,Union and Defiant
[ QUOTE ]
I used to think like that. Until these intermittent spawn failures have shown me the error of my ways. At least 3 ghosting runs and one complete playtrough after any major objective change or it's bugged, more for fancy missions with conditional bosses and so on. 5 complete playtroughs before publishing. I'm still to test my 1st arc up to that standard, this weekend maybe. And yes, there was a major problrem I've caught on the 5th run once.
Again, this is probably because I don't know yet what exactly causes bugs and how to avoid them, but almost everyone is in the same situation right now.
[/ QUOTE ]
You can't always control or completely eliminate the bugs - a lot seem to be very intermittent.
A map I used for the 4th mission of my L1-14 arc was absolutely fine in testing, and absolutely fine on a solo run through I did after publishing it, but then a few hours later I did it in a duo and there was a massive hole in the world we couldn't get past and kept falling through - same for the next two play-throughs - so I changed the map, republished and re-tested and now just hope I won't get a comment that it's happening on that map.
Also a 6-person team that ran my L46-50 arc reported that some of the mobs were spawning at L47, while others were at L50-L52, when all three missions have "flat" spawning - but nobody else has reported that in its 37 play-throughs and I have never experienced it in testing or when playing the arc myself.
And again I could never work out why some bosses I create just won't show the transparency from Reflections Effects but others do. Turning the costume auras off one boss seemed to work, but didn't for another. The boss using huge bodytype wouldn't take an aura when the male bodytype ones would. And yet another player had an arc that had a boss with huge bodytype and eye auras, plus Reflections Effects working.
And I just can't get "betray on arrival" to work whatever other settings I try.
In many cases you have about as much control over whether a bug happens as you have over where the boss gets placed. Thorough testing is good, especially for gameplay balancing, checking for typos and the like, but you can't test for every eventuality - sometimes you just get intermittent bugs and the Dev-created content certainly isn't immune to that.
Yes, you have little control. That isn't much of an excuse though, it seems. Quote from the OP: "random maps that don't accomodate the number of objectives and thus simply don't work and have to be restarted till a map that can accomodate is randomly picked"
It isn't the only possible cause of that bug, in fact I doubt it was caused by random maps (since if you pick a random map you are seemingly limited to lower number of objectives than any particular map has)
Yet players (including me) don't blame the devs for MA bugs, they blame us. They have every right to. And so, doing our best to make missions that don't trigger those bugs is something that simply has to be done.
I work as a software developer, BTW. "This is a bug in the framework we use" is a valid excuse to ask for more time or to not to promise complete solution, but it isn't an excuse for the bug itself/not doing your best to fix it or to work around it.
That said, pestering the dev team about fixing MA has to be done too.
[ QUOTE ]
) you misunderstood. We hit the sarchasm.
"BTW - Is Shakespeare's work considered great because it was written well when first published or because it's had hundreds of years of tinkering to improve it?"
Wait, what? I know there've been some slight tweaks notably converting archaic to modern English, depending which version you read but there haven't been *that* many changes since the early folios.
Something like the OED or any other non-fiction book that *does* get updated a lot might've been a better example :P
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Ah - even with a prepostorous claim and a hinting smiley (i.e.
It was the counterpoint (to the idea that works all improve over time) that some works are great from the off - and so some arcs (both newly published and from beta) would be great because they were made great by the author.
By my mohawk shall ye know me!
my toons
Funny: Ee-Ai-Ee-Ai-Oh! #3662 * The foul-mouthed Handyman! #1076 * City of Norms #132944
Serious: To Save A Single World (#83744) * Marketing Opportunity (#83747)