Stalkers actually being looked at

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No, but its an unavoidable effect. If some ATs are relatively good, it is unavoidable that others will be relatively bad.

It's just they put a positive spin on it.

A bit like a goverment saying "We will increase funding for Health" without saying "And, hence, we will withdraw funding from other areas and/or increase taxes to pay for this".

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That's not the only way you could take the statement. It could mean ""We wanted some AT's to shine in teams but be poor solo". It certainly doesn't mean "We deliberatly make an AT be sucky in teams to balance it being good in PvP".

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No, but its an unavoidable effect. If some ATs are relatively good, it is unavoidable that others will be relatively bad.

It's just they put a positive spin on it.

A bit like a goverment saying "We will increase funding for Health" without saying "And, hence, we will withdraw funding from other areas and/or increase taxes to pay for this".

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That's not the only way you could take the statement. It could mean ""We wanted some AT's to shine in teams but be poor solo". It certainly doesn't mean "We deliberatly make an AT be sucky in teams to balance it being good in PvP".

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Ah yes, I see your point, thanks for catching me out!

I cant remember the Dev post clearly - that one statement always stuck in my mind quite clearly though.

I *think* the rest of the post mentioned something about a quid pro quo affair: i.e. good solo = bad team, and visa versa (albeit couched in "positive spin" language). But it was a long time ago and my memory is a bit fuzzy. The only thing im pretty sure about is that statement.

But to me honest, it seems fairly clear from game mechanics this is the size of things. It all boils down to AoE. AoE outshines ST damage hugely in large teams, and is very weak solo. Scrappers do mainly ST damage, Stalkers do almost exclusively ST damage. The same applies to AoE effects (e.g. AoE Debuffs) or Buffs that recharge very fast (e.g. speed boost, FF bubbles) vs ST versions of the same (e.g. Heal Other).

I appreciate there are exceptions to this (there are times when ST effects are very important, like vs AVs) (and there are things like Spines/Dark scrappers stuffed full of AoE), but these are fairly rare exceptions. I cant see how you can escape the maths of the game that AoE is A+ in big teams, and E- solo, and ST effects are the obverse.

Updates from Castle:

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(QR)
Well, I just soloed Hero Statesman, using 3 small purples and 3 small orange inspirations. It took around 80 seconds. Would have been faster, except for his verdammt Dull Pain!

As our QA guy put it, "Why bother using any of my other attacks against an AV? Assassin Strike is all I need!" I think the 'fix' is a little over the top, but the path I'm on ought to lead to something entertaining.

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Is Stalker's "fix" only going to be on Assassin Strike? I am hoping we get to see a mix of AS and other buffs.

[/ QUOTE ]This was just an idea I had that could address a specific issue I know Stalkers have. Obviously, the idea works; the question now becomes one of degrees. Do I want a group of Stalkers to be able to One Shot an AV? If so, how large of a group? Do they need outside buffs to accomplish it? If a full group CAN'T one shot an AV, how close to defeat should it be? How do those effects scale when facing AV>EBs? How about natural EBs or Bosses? If there are discrepancies, which side do I err on, or do I bite the bullet and make the server process another attrib per attack?

EDIT: BTW, those are the questions I'm asking myself...not really meant for discussion, so much as to illustrate how I am thinking.

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What about Stalkers who didn't take Assassin's Strike?

[/ QUOTE ]I imagine they will want to re-evaluate their builds *if* they plan on fighting AV's and such.


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Fair enough. Freespec when the fix goes in?

[/ QUOTE ]Perhaps. If so, it would not be for this.


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PS: Can you tell us what type of Stalker do you play?

[/ QUOTE ]My highest level stalker in a non-test environment is Claws/Regen. Solo'd to level 29.

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"Happy Christmas" Folks!

Aw man, I'm gonna have to start using AS more? :<

Making some toon bad in teams for any reason is not a very bright idea from devs if you ask me. On the other hand, I dont think stalkers are that bad in teams.

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Making some toon bad in teams for any reason is not a very bright idea from devs if you ask me. On the other hand, I dont think stalkers are that bad in teams.

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I would agree, but then so is making toons bad solo. You cant have a situation where a toon A is good solo and teams, and toon B is bad solo and good in teams.

However, this is all pretty idle speculation. The Devs, IIRC have pretty much said this is the WAI (Some ATs are team toons, some ATs are solo toons), and I cant see it being readdressed without massive changes to game mechanics.

At the moment, I would prefer it that stalkers and scrappers are mediocre in teams as they have an advantage solo.

Mind you, this is excellent news for stalkers. Not only where they underperforming generally, they are a far to extreme example of (good solo, bad teams). Whilst scrappers are similar, they still function tolerably in teams.

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I would agree, but then so is making toons bad solo. You cant have a situation where a toon A is good solo and teams, and toon B is bad solo and good in teams.

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A = Mastermind/Brute
B = Dominator/Blaster

There's other things besides "Team" and "Solo" that go into balancing an AT.
Such as "Time": MM "Set up time" and Brute "Fury Building Time".

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B = Dominator/Blaster



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Just aside,..

Confused. Dominator's poor at soloing?

News to me tbh.

As for Blasters. I wouldn't be able to agree there either.

With some ATs as exceptions I think the solo/team aspect is more subjective to the powersets on offer.

Dominators are poor solo against AVs downgraded to EBs.

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Making some toon bad in teams for any reason is not a very bright idea from devs if you ask me. On the other hand, I dont think stalkers are that bad in teams.

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A well played stalker isn't bad in a team, it just doesn't bring as much to a team as any of the other ATs.

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Making some toon bad in teams for any reason is not a very bright idea from devs if you ask me. On the other hand, I dont think stalkers are that bad in teams.

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A well played stalker isn't bad in a team, it just doesn't bring as much to a team as any of the other ATs.

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Which is doublespeak for bad

More seriously, its a question of semantics. Every toon offers something to a team, even if its a Controller who only uses brawl and no other powers.

There are three questions...

1. Does the toon offer *enough* to justify the increasing mob sizes etc. In other words, the more toons, the more danger / risk. If you dont, I would say you are more than bad, you arent worth having.

2. Similarly, is the team getting xp as fast as it could without you. If its slowing down, then you arent worth having. (from a purely "reward" based equation. You may well be worth it from fun or social reasons, but thats outside of development, balancing and game mechanics)

3. Are you adding more or less to a team than another AT/Toon?


if 1 or 2 are firfulled... i.e. you make the team worse by being there, then, IMO, thats a problem.

If 3 are furfulled.... i.e. you are pulling your weight / justifying your existence, but you are less valuable than another AT, then that seems *reasonable* if perhaps undesirable.

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Dominators are poor solo against AVs downgraded to EBs.

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No they aren't.

Wintergreen could solo almost any EB (Ice/Thorn Dominator), a whole lot easier than any other of my toons pretty much.

You must tell me how you deal with the purple triangles of doom then, because I've played ice/ice to 50, and anything I couldn't lock down gave me a very hard time.

Note: I do not consider "a shivan and a tray full of purples" = powerful against EBs. Anything could defeat an EB that way.

Id agree with PRAF there, if any enemy has the PtOD, then I find dominators have the toughest time vs EBs. Brutes outpunch and outsurvive them, Masterminds wear them down and keep a steady stream of cannon fodder (although AoE heavy EB's are hard), Corruptors just destroy them (pack some break frees). Stalkers I found can have a slightly tough time.

But dominators are pure pain. You are a sitting duck when PtOD are up. Sure you can swallow purples. But dominators have the lowest damage output of any villian AT - whilst its not *bad*, it makes an EB slow work. And purples run out.

I can't remember. I did tho lol.

I think it was a lot of kiting and slows, but I'm not sure

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But dominators have the lowest damage output of any villian AT

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My /Thorn Dominator owns my Sonic/Thermal at DPS.

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I can't remember. I did tho lol.

I think it was a lot of kiting and slows, but I'm not sure

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Doninators can defeat AVs downgraded to EBs. That doesn't mean they are not poor against them, just about anything else can defeat them more easily/faster/with fewer insps and temps.

Obviously my word isn't good enough, so I'll leave that there.

But I think that a dominator against lots of enemies solo (maybe a chance double or treble group of enemies is agro'd) is alot harder to defeat than one big, bad one, because AoE attacks are fairly useless on a Dominator, and AoE holds have quite a long recharge (though this became less of a problem as I slotted more and could stack ST holds on more and more enemies at the same time). But maybe that was just me.

Depends on the dominator. My plants/Psi dominator can defeat large numbers of enemies just as easily as small ones with Seeds of Confusion, AoE immob, Psychic Scream and Psychic Shockwave. 8 man spawns as easy as 1 man.

EXCEPT for bosses, or confuse resist enemies, who I struggle against.

My dominators (ice/ice and Plants/Psi) can both take down EB's, but both chew more inspirations than any other AT, and take longer to do it.

Why has a discussion about Stalkers actually getting a buff turned into yet another discussion about stalkers sucking in teams? Getting pretty tired of these discussions now tbh.

From what Castle is thinking, this sounds great. Stalkers have long needed a PvE buff, and if they can do it well enough to make people actually want stalkers for AV fights especially, then good! Who cares about large spawns of minions and lts with the odd boss going down super fast unless you are a farmer or plvler? If they make it so that a team of stalkers could take out an AV/Hero in a few seconds, now THAT would be impressive!!!

I look forward to seeing what actually comes of this.

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Why has a discussion about Stalkers actually getting a buff turned into yet another discussion about stalkers sucking in teams? Getting pretty tired of these discussions now tbh.

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It's those very discussions that have lead Castle to look at the issue.

Castle has given us some more info here:

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Stalkers Assassination attacks have been modified for PvE use. The damage scalar used for the critical portion has been broken into two parts. The first part, which operates the same as the original Critical, is now 2/3rds its previous value. The second part, however, does 10% of the targets maximum health, prior to resistances. Against underlings and minions, this results in slightly lower overall damage. Against Lieutenants, the damage is roughly equivalent. In all other cases, the overall damage output should be significantly increased.

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Good PvE change on paper - especially at the lower levels.

Interesting. I wonder how this will change a stalkers role in a pve team and when they will actually implement it.

Will it mean we can still take out an LT in one hit with BU, or a minion without? Will our damage vs bosses/ebs/avs be HUUUUGE! and make us noticeble in a large team vs an AV? I hope that any changes they do make will help us be more accepted to a PvE team and no more "eww a stalker" type comments.

2.8k unbuffable crit portion against a L50 Hero (Mynx).

So far I like this. As it ignores Build Up I can spam it more, too.