If you want survivability, inv/Ice is a fairly solid combo. On the other hand, if you want damage, it's probably not 
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If you want survivability, inv/Ice is a fairly solid combo. On the other hand, if you want damage, it's probably not
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Well I did make a tank for the fascination to be able to withstand a million enemies attacking me with a bold smile, and also to be able to look at the AVs in the face in later levels , so maybe my choice wasn't bad at all. With this toon, I am interested in teaming, not in going solo (for that, I have my MM and my MA/Regen Scrapper), so...
I think for staring at AVs itll be good when your limited in the type of buffs or debuffs about you depending on what you can pull off. Frozen Aura and Icepatch can keep minions about you for additional defence whilst taunting an AV, I dont suggest melee though.
Other players can be sods, outdoors I am tanking a GM using minions to maximise the defbuff of my invincible and then along comes a firetanker who defeats them all XD
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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it would figure than swapping Frozen aura for ISC would be the obvious choice
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i soooooo want them to make that change so that at level 38 i have something to look forward too.
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I think for staring at AVs itll be good when your limited in the type of buffs or debuffs about you depending on what you can pull off. Frozen Aura and Icepatch can keep minions about you for additional defence whilst taunting an AV, I dont suggest melee though.
Other players can be sods, outdoors I am tanking a GM using minions to maximise the defbuff of my invincible and then along comes a firetanker who defeats them all XD
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tbh though, in teams you dont always get that choice. even if you're trying to keep the mobs around you alive, that doesnt mean they aren't gonna take splash damage from the rest of the team. It isn't like Invuln suffers vs AVs anyway, thanks to it's resistance. personally, i find it more useful keeping minions around on a fire or ice tank incase you start gettin low on end.
Thats why I didnt suggest melee. Invulns do and dont have a hard time with AVs but the flexibilty to do more or better with a somewhat skeletal team is there, which I like. Keeping mobs for endurance purposes? As an Ice or Fire? 
Way less important than defence for an Invuln. Def to end draining attacks helps prevent end drain an all. Talking bout end draining AVs, EA wont necessarily keep up with the end drain 'alone'.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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Keeping mobs for endurance purposes? As an Ice or Fire? Way less important than defence for an Invuln.
[/ QUOTE ]However, Ice gets defence boost from mobs around it just like invul (well, except that EA is a clicky instead of toggle)
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Keeping mobs for endurance purposes? As an Ice or Fire? Way less important than defence for an Invuln.
[/ QUOTE ]However, Ice gets defence boost from mobs around it just like invul (well, except that EA is a clicky instead of toggle)
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A notable amount as well (11% ish depending on slotting) from the full 10 mobs.
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Thats why I didnt suggest melee. Invulns do and dont have a hard time with AVs but the flexibilty to do more or better with a somewhat skeletal team is there, which I like. Keeping mobs for endurance purposes? As an Ice or Fire? Way less important than defence for an Invuln. Def to end draining attacks helps prevent end drain an all. Talking bout end draining AVs, EA wont necessarily keep up with the end drain 'alone'.
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tbh i dont think either are important. if you cant stand up to an AV without the extra defence buff from invince, then maybe you need to look at your build. likewise if you keep running out of end. I merely said that personally i find, 90% of the time, that keeping mobs for end is more useful than keeping them there for defence.
with invince hitting one mob (the AV), you're up to 27% defence. Which isn't exactly shabby is it? Each additional mob then adds a smaller % bonus. say you have an AV and two minions.. with Invince, the minions give you 4% more defence... with end steals they give you 200% more end bonus than one target would. (coincidentally, energy absorbtion also gives you 2% extra def with two minions as opposed to just an AV)
i can honestly say that i have never thought "damn, i wish i had 4% more defence right now". 27% def and maxed res to s/l is more than enough to go toe to toe with an AV imo.
And that's good for me!
you know, I just love my Defender, and as a Kin I get to stand not too far from the enemies... Still, I never get to see the AVs models much when fighting , since I am gonna have tankers and scrappers in front of me kickin [censored]. So, how stupid it may sound, I look forward to leveling my tanker just to get the chance to see the cool AVs face to face 
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Keeping mobs for endurance purposes? As an Ice or Fire? Way less important than defence for an Invuln.
[/ QUOTE ]However, Ice gets defence boost from mobs around it just like invul (well, except that EA is a clicky instead of toggle)
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A notable amount as well (11% ish depending on slotting) from the full 10 mobs.
[/ QUOTE ]And stackable, three times with the right slotting.
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Keeping mobs for endurance purposes? As an Ice or Fire? Way less important than defence for an Invuln.
[/ QUOTE ]However, Ice gets defence boost from mobs around it just like invul (well, except that EA is a clicky instead of toggle)
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A notable amount as well (11% ish depending on slotting) from the full 10 mobs.
[/ QUOTE ]And stackable, three times with the right slotting.
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Ah, but only 9.5% of it is stackable 
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Keeping mobs for endurance purposes? As an Ice or Fire? Way less important than defence for an Invuln.
[/ QUOTE ]However, Ice gets defence boost from mobs around it just like invul (well, except that EA is a clicky instead of toggle)
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A notable amount as well (11% ish depending on slotting) from the full 10 mobs.
[/ QUOTE ]And stackable, three times with the right slotting.
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Ah, but only 9.5% of it is stackable
[/ QUOTE ]I never said the full amount was
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Thats why I didnt suggest melee. Invulns do and dont have a hard time with AVs but the flexibilty to do more or better with a somewhat skeletal team is there, which I like. Keeping mobs for endurance purposes? As an Ice or Fire? Way less important than defence for an Invuln. Def to end draining attacks helps prevent end drain an all. Talking bout end draining AVs, EA wont necessarily keep up with the end drain 'alone'.
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tbh i dont think either are important. if you cant stand up to an AV without the extra defence buff from invince, then maybe you need to look at your build.
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I'd first like to emphasise that my discussions before did actually mention both skeletal teaming and limited buffs and debuffs (when I say limited I mean as in not much). You can see I mentioned that just by reading again.
Next up defense for endurance purposes:
Invulns cant resist end drain like a stonetanker nor put end back quickly like an icetanker or firetanker therefore for endurance purposes, defence is more important for invulns and in talking about AVs there are AVs that end drain.
There is also a reason for kiting, damage mitigation to self and/or to team, sometimes melee dps of an AV will be more than a team can help support you or someone else against. Opting for ranged dps maybe the better option, the loss of your dps on an AV can also mean more dps from the team ie the blappers that do way more damage than you, can/might, get to do so, untouched, let alone from not being planted, controlled or debuffed. Id also like to point out that not all AVs are exactly the same and each type of tanker has its weaknesses that no pool power can provide adequate make up for.
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with invince hitting one mob (the AV), you're up to 27% defence. Which isn't exactly shabby is it? Each additional mob then adds a smaller % bonus. say you have an AV and two minions.. with Invince, the minions give you 4% more defence... with end steals they give you 200% more end bonus than one target would. (coincidentally, energy absorbtion also gives you 2% extra def with two minions as opposed to just an AV)
i can honestly say that i have never thought "damn, i wish i had 4% more defence right now". 27% def and maxed res to s/l is more than enough to go toe to toe with an AV imo.
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I would like to see how you gathered these figures.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
bring back the old greater ice sword animation and give frozen aura an acc boost so it actually hits more than 2 minions and i'd be happy.
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I'd first like to emphasise that my discussions before did actually mention both skeletal teaming and limited buffs and debuffs (when I say limited I mean as in not much). You can see I mentioned that just by reading again.
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i'm talking about small teams or solo also. in larger teams neither end, nor that extra defence, should be any real concern due to the number of buffs you should be recieving.
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Invulns cant resist end drain like a stonetanker nor put end back quickly like an icetanker or firetanker therefore for endurance purposes, defence is more important for invulns and in talking about AVs there are AVs that end drain.
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there's as many AVs that def debuff as there are that end drain in my experiance so tbh end draining AVs seems pretty irrelevant to me. As you say, not all AVs are the same and every tank will have an AV it doesnt like.. just because some may cause an inv to have end drain issues, that doesnt mean they all do. My ice tank doesnt like anti-matter... but that doesnt mean i'm gonna run away from all AVs, tail between legs.
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with invince hitting one mob (the AV), you're up to 27% defence. Which isn't exactly shabby is it? Each additional mob then adds a smaller % bonus. say you have an AV and two minions.. with Invince, the minions give you 4% more defence... with end steals they give you 200% more end bonus than one target would. (coincidentally, energy absorbtion also gives you 2% extra def with two minions as opposed to just an AV)
i can honestly say that i have never thought "damn, i wish i had 4% more defence right now". 27% def and maxed res to s/l is more than enough to go toe to toe with an AV imo.
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I would like to see how you gathered these figures.
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if you don't care about numbers n stuff... scroll to the bottom now
invuln was based on my build, and the powers are slotted. the defence figure comes from:
unyielding = -5%
tough hide = 7.9%
weave = 7.9%
invincibility (1 target) = 10.4%
combat jumping = 2.9%
Steadfast Protection +def = 3%
= 27.1%
invincibility, as you know, scales. so for every other target hit it gives a 1.5% buff (base value). factoring enhancements this would be 2.4% buff per target. For two additional targets that is 4.8%. Ok, it rounds up to 5% rather than the 4% previously stated, but when i made my last post i was doing it in my head cos i'm lazy.
end steals don't scale. So if your end steal does 5 end hitting one target, then for three targets it'll do 15. which is +200% on the one target figure.
The invincibility % i used is an actual % increase in the stat, the end steal is a relative increase. i should have said that invincibility with two more targets gives you a bonus to your defence of:
[(def with one target) + (extra def for three targets)/ (def with one target)] * 100
= [(27.1 + 4.8)/27.1]*100
= 117
which means that with invince hitting three targets, you have 117% of the def you had when it was hitting one. Which is a bonus of 17%. If i had said it gave a 17% bonus though, people would have presumed i was talking about actual % increase in def rather than relative to the original defence.. and to be frank i couldnt be arsed explaining it.
If you were going to have a mob of 10 around you whilst tanking the AV, then this would change to:
[(27.1 + 2.8*9)/27.1]*100
which is a 192% increase on the original, or an extra 92%. For end steal this would be 1000% increase on the orginal.
obviously, with these kinds of figures though you're capping your defence or gaining more end than your bar can take, making it a relatively pointless exercise to have any more than 5 or so minions. Also it's of note that if you have lower base defence than my build, say you use teleport as your travel power and dont have Weave or Steadfast IO, then the benefits of gathering a mob around you for an AV would be more apparent.
getting back on topic ...
I wouldnt take frozen aura just incase i came across an AV that i needed extra defence for (and wanted to keep the mob i was using out of action), i'd sooner take a useful power and use a purple insp should the need arise to be honest. But it's all down to preference really.
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I'd first like to emphasise that my discussions before did actually mention both skeletal teaming and limited buffs and debuffs (when I say limited I mean as in not much). You can see I mentioned that just by reading again.
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i'm talking about small teams or solo also. in larger teams neither end, nor that extra defence, should be any real concern due to the number of buffs you should be recieving.
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I am not gonna sidetrack with you, I am not talking about defence or resist when it comes to anyother effect. Invulns versus end drains are weaker than anyother tanker and defense is all they can do for themselves other than use insps which anyone can do.In large teams, the team can be made up of anything going up against any number of effects. If sonic was the only support, then with little or no def against end drainers its bye bye end, but atleast thankfully you have shields that dont rely on endurance and maybe you can keep taunt control when your out of end from having the one power that doesnt rely on endurance.
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with invince hitting one mob (the AV), you're up to 27% defence. Which isn't exactly shabby is it? Each additional mob then adds a smaller % bonus. say you have an AV and two minions.. with Invince, the minions give you 4% more defence... with end steals they give you 200% more end bonus than one target would. (coincidentally, energy absorbtion also gives you 2% extra def with two minions as opposed to just an AV)
i can honestly say that i have never thought "damn, i wish i had 4% more defence right now". 27% def and maxed res to s/l is more than enough to go toe to toe with an AV imo.
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I would like to see how you gathered these figures.
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if you don't care about numbers n stuff... scroll to the bottom now
invuln was based on my build, and the powers are slotted. the defence figure comes from:
unyielding = -5%
tough hide = 7.9%
weave = 7.9%
invincibility (1 target) = 10.4%
combat jumping = 2.9%
Steadfast Protection +def = 3%
= 27.1%
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Weave = 7.9%<---not invulnerability
combat jumping = 2.9%<---not invulnerability
Only you know how your invuln gets to that amount of defence not me. So Id rather it was you, who clarified how you get to the figure before someone new comes along and thinks Invulns can naturally achieve it and that, is why I asked you to tell me how you got your figures.
I chose not to read from steadfast downwards cos this..
unyielding = -5%
tough hide = 7.9%
weave = 7.9%
invincibility (1 target) = 10.4%
combat jumping = 2.9%
Steadfast Protection +def = 3%
...was all i wanted to see but I read the back on topic bit
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I wouldnt take frozen aura just incase i came across an AV that i needed extra defence for (and wanted to keep the mob i was using out of action), i'd sooner take a useful power and use a purple insp should the need arise to be honest. But it's all down to preference really.
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I previously mentioned being flexible, this means being able to do something not everybody can do or needs to do, because if everyone can do it, its not being flexible. The times to be flexible are rare but some people like "out of the box" stuff. Whether you or I agree with Frozen Aura as worth taking is something 99,99% of the population wont give a hoot about, so yes its all about preference. I am not without more ideas on uses for Frozen Aura, I am just bringing a couple up. Every individual scales a powers level of usefulness/fun/neatness for themselves, to how they play and the last thing I want to see is people talking like they speak for everyone. Frozen Aura sleeping minions for the defbuffing of invincible is a positive effect I came up with both here and on the American forums.
I begin my holidays today so thats free time to go into all the boring stuff I can.
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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unyielding = -5%
tough hide = 7.9%
weave = 7.9%
invincibility (1 target) = 10.4%
combat jumping = 2.9%
Steadfast Protection +def = 3%
...was all i wanted to see but I read the back on topic bit
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bah, coulda said that without needing to use a calculator to work out the %s again 
ah well, had nothing better to do i guess.
You know, the main effect of this topic on me has been to let me wonder if my poor Inv/Ice tanker, currently level 14, will ever be good in game as it is in concept (my primary reason for the power picks)...
or how much tweaking it will take me to let his build be an efficient one... Please tell me that you can help with the build, ok? It all looks terribly difficult to me in this moment with all these maths and fine tuning talks going on 