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There were two moments that made me want to build a 'stone' rather than 'granite' tank:
1) watching a stoney try to tank the psi clock king in GA, despite having minerals
2) watching a stoney get end drained by malta because he 'forgot' about rooted
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Havent read all yet, i'll comment that when i have my coffee. But for these questions:
1.Ask yourself, how does a Inv and Ice tanker survive Psi clock and sortlike AV/GM's? Only fire can heal (but psi does -recharge). Bunch of purple, bunch of greens, few orange and wedding ring.. thats how i faced all psi mobs so far (EE can give a lovely healthboost so u hardly get 1 shotted), and rely on a healer.
2. I rather say thats inpexerience of the player. My base line of everything.. Know your enemy. Drain, recharge, slow, KB, acc, specialy versus malta key role is taking out the sapper first, but at any cost, keep rooted running.
Why i am perma-granite, there was a topic about that a while ago, looking all the penalties Granite gets and non-granites. Besides the -recharge and a minor -dmg (you tank, not scrap), there isnt any other penalty. Ok Capped -slow is annoying, but we got kins and TP. Being perma, you can focus more on agro management by use of more powers (im SS). I still took the stone armor (stone skin always) and the NRG armor but only to get the 62,5% recharge bonus from IO sets rather then i really gonnna use it.
many tankers tend to 'jump in' a group of mobs, with a non-perma-granite (the stone tanker) they often forget you cannot cast Rooted while being mid air. By the time you land, you got mezzed already, toggle drop.. dead. By comparing this to the draining, this jump rooting is more likely to go wrong then being drained to death by a sapper, as drain only occor mostly with malta (high lvl, 1 groep) and the jump rooting basicly versus any mob. With perma granite, you never forget this as you already cant jump 
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[ QUOTE ]
1.Ask yourself, how does a Inv and Ice tanker survive Psi clock and sortlike AV/GM's? Only fire can heal (but psi does -recharge). Bunch of purple, bunch of greens, few orange and wedding ring.. thats how i faced all psi mobs so far (EE can give a lovely healthboost so u hardly get 1 shotted), and rely on a healer.
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Just have to reply to this even if it's a bit off the original topic - a good trick to tanking psi AVs with an Inv is to use your ranged immob from your epic, taunt, a corner and aid self/dull pain creatively. (ie immob the *******, taunt, move behind corner, heal, immob, corner, taunt, corner, heal ...)
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Besides the -recharge and a minor -dmg (you tank, not scrap)
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This is my view on my GA tank - I use him a lot for non exemplar work i.e. STF, AVs etc. What I tend to focus on is that you are a Stone tank - You are there to take the damage better than anyone else; thats your role in a team.
I planned my GA build around the premise that I would never be attacking for damage - for example all my attacks (minus a couple) are 6 slotted; 2 acc, 2 rech and 2 taunt. That is what the attacks should be doing attempting to get the aggro of the more squishy types. (Fire epic is what I have on mine - it is slotted for range, acc and rech since it doesnt take taunt)
But thats just my view on a GA stoner, Im not saying this is definitively how you should play yours but it is how I like to play mine.
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What I tend to focus on is that you are a Stone tank - You are there to take the damage better than anyone else; thats your role in a team.
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and this, i guess, is where we fundamentally disagree. imo the primary role of a tank is not to "take the damage better than anyone else", it's to take, and keep aggro. i'd much rather team with a tank who dies taunting, than one who lets the aggro bounce off them but can survive anything you throw at it.
with my stone tank i tanked AVs, pylons, lvl 54 rikti and hami... whilst all the time keeping aggro just using mudpots and taunt, and giving out some decent AoE damage. why does anyone NEED the extra res that GA gives? is it honestly worth totally gimping yourself for a load of extra res you will rarely need?
If you hate GA so much, not reading my reasoning of GA and its benefits, whats the whole use of asking then?
Back to the story 'what is tanking', GA in your eyes is a lousy useless slow thing that is not able to keep agro in any form.
The need of such resist and defence? (dont forget defence, its alot) My build i am able to keep close to the same agro, but i dont need a healer or buffer to watch my back nonstop, i dont have to look at my HP bar, i only have to look around for mobs, keeping them at me and never to worry about damage.
Why run so many armors and still can loose them all in 1 blink of a second (forgot rooted), where i can become a killer, a tanker, a nearly undestructable pile of rocks ready to face anything (.. .ok psi dmg excluded).
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What I tend to focus on is that you are a Stone tank - You are there to take the damage better than anyone else; thats your role in a team.
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and this, i guess, is where we fundamentally disagree. imo the primary role of a tank is not to "take the damage better than anyone else", it's to take, and keep aggro. i'd much rather team with a tank who dies taunting, than one who lets the aggro bounce off them but can survive anything you throw at it.
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It's a small difference but a significant one. Yes, you are there to take damage, but only as part of the process of taking aggro.
I've said it before and I'll say it again - it doesn't matter how much damage you can take if the rest of your team ends up dead because you weren't holding the aggro.
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Sums it up really. Putting on GA means you don't have to look at your HP bar (except versus some mob types) and can concentrate on other things. Stone does have good defence and resistance (plus regen to back it up) and is far from rubbish but the defence isn't huge and neither is the resistance. Without team backup, it can struggle in some situations.
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If you hate GA so much, not reading my reasoning of GA and its benefits, whats the whole use of asking then?
Back to the story 'what is tanking', GA in your eyes is a lousy useless slow thing that is not able to keep agro in any form.
The need of such resist and defence? (dont forget defence, its alot) My build i am able to keep close to the same agro, but i dont need a healer or buffer to watch my back nonstop, i dont have to look at my HP bar, i only have to look around for mobs, keeping them at me and never to worry about damage.
Why run so many armors and still can loose them all in 1 blink of a second (forgot rooted), where i can become a killer, a tanker, a nearly undestructable pile of rocks ready to face anything (.. .ok psi dmg excluded).
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yes, i was trying not to get on to 'what is tanking', but unfortunately it seems to be linked to most discussions on tanks, so there is no real escape.
with regards to defence... I'm sure you know the figures already, but GA gives you 3-5% more defence than normal armours to s/l and nrg/neg and 40% less to psi. GA does give a good boost to elem def, but the extra def to the rest is minimal compared to the res boost.
lastly, i dont hate GA.. it is a very good situational power, however the majority of the time it is simply not needed to function effectively. You wouldnt expect an invuln tank to drop unstoppable in the middle of a fight when his normal armours would more than suffice, so why is it expected that people should run GA when their normal armours would be sufficient?
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with regards to defence... I'm sure you know the figures already, but GA gives you 3-5% more defence than normal armours to s/l and nrg/neg and 40% less to psi. GA does give a good boost to elem def, but the extra def to the rest is minimal compared to the res boost.
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I know the numbers, people often forget the defence as they stare blindly on the massive resist to all-ex-psi. The defence even increase survivability, specialy if powers have nasty -acc/-rech or sortlike.
You keep staring at the 'need' point, but look ahead. If you take it, it will 'need' less other things. Less healing, less worry of a tanker, less team whipe. Sometimes you dont pick a power because you need it, but take it because the team will benefit from it greatly.
Yes, 70% of the time its perhaps overdone, but i spare myself 4 powers (stone, nrg, fire/ice, psi) that i can put in other powers. Extra attack, extra travel, extra slotting, great to compensate the -recharge and using gauntlet alot.
I did take stone and nrg armor now, to get my LotG sets. Those 2 together are quite nice, but once they hit beyond my defence (hello nems, freaks, warriors, valkiry etc) you have no single defence left, thus relying way more on healer, buffer, supporters.
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You keep staring at the 'need' point, but look ahead. If you take it, it will 'need' less other things. Less healing, less worry of a tanker, less team whipe. Sometimes you dont pick a power because you need it, but take it because the team will benefit from it greatly.
[/ QUOTE ]you're saying that with GA you 'need' less things; yet do you see hasten, pool power taunt, or taunt enhs slotted in my tank's attacks? no.. cause i dont need them to hold aggro effectively. a tank using GA on the other hand, does need them to hold aggro effectively...
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I did take stone and nrg armor now, to get my LotG sets. Those 2 together are quite nice, but once they hit beyond my defence (hello nems, freaks, warriors, valkiry etc) you have no single defence left, thus relying way more on healer, buffer, supporters.
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i'm not too sure why freaks are in that list tbh, but nvm... how do you think ice fares against nems? Ice is even more defence reliant that stone is!
from what you're saying, it seems to me that your reason for running perma-ga is that you feel the stone armours are too weak?
A well built non-GA tank is a good tank but needs effort put in to make it reasonably survivable without team buffs. A GA tank is a good tank but needs effort put in to allow it to hold aggro well. Both are viable. Both have advantages and both have weaknesses in different situations. Personally I'd not say either was 'better'.
The main issue people have with perma-GA builds is that most people using them don't build them to hold aggro and don't understand the powers (I watched a stoner using GA to tank minus 20 clockwork the other day for instance). That's what gives them a bad rep.
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lastly, i dont hate GA.. it is a very good situational power, however the majority of the time it is simply not needed to function effectively. You wouldnt expect an invuln tank to drop unstoppable in the middle of a fight when his normal armours would more than suffice, so why is it expected that people should run GA when their normal armours would be sufficient?
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Because people are lazy.
Because they like the look/concept.
Because they are bad players.
And mainly because people like to do what everyone does and not bother to try anything different, and even if you were to prove playing without granite is 3456 times more efficient in most situations than with it, they'd still play perma-GA.
Wrong is a gimped taunt "in granite mode". Why? well add a -rechg effect or up the levels of the AV, I have seen AVs turn on less paltry slotting.
You dont need granite for most any AV with most team make ups. However with it on, providing you are compensating for its faults, it makes life a whole lot easier for teaming, therefore reduces the challenge for the team.
Pylons level of damage and accuracy is nothing special.
lvl 54 rikti with a decent or half decent team is nothing special.
Hami.. weakened hamidon is nothing special.
That dont mean that current or old content will be or was nothing special.
People take perma GA to get other useful powers, like the look or dont have alot of confidence out of it.
The new Vanguard material should imo put all Tanks on edge if they try to solo on Unyielding or most certainly Invincible XD .
Tanks are about 'direction and placement of effects' control imo. They are sod all good to a team in terms of efficiency or effectiveness if they arent (but i do think doing damage for -fight duration aids survivability so lets not forget that damage can be important ;p )
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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The new Vanguard material should imo put all Tanks on edge if they try to solo on Unyielding or most certainly Invincible XD .
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Out of genuine interest - and sorry for the complete thread derail - but... why?
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The new Vanguard material should imo put all Tanks on edge if they try to solo on Unyielding or most certainly Invincible XD .
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Out of genuine interest - and sorry for the complete thread derail - but... why?
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Why? Do it and find out. If your trying it for the second time around then it will be tough but not as tough as the first time around. I read my combat logs. Whats on offer as in its effects upon any type of tank is of worthy note. Upto Gaussian its pretty straight forward gaming but once you see him its gets really good.
But I will say the saving NPC ones were my favourite and its nice to get them all out alive inclusive of the squishy lvl 40 called Lk'Onik despite all else being 51+
He will honor his words; he will definitely carry out his actions. What he promises he will fulfill. He does not care about his bodily self, putting his life and death aside to come forward for another's troubled besiegement. He does not boast about his ability, or shamelessly extol his own virtues. - Sima Qian.
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you're saying that with GA you 'need' less things; yet do you see hasten, pool power taunt, or taunt enhs slotted in my tank's attacks? no.. cause i dont need them to hold aggro effectively. a tank using GA on the other hand, does need them to hold aggro effectively...
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First off, did you ever played a GA? How long did you play it? Against what? So my taunt recharge slower, my gauntlet didnt stop working because i go GA. 2 rechare SO and i'm break even with a base stone tanker, i spare out lotsa slots i dont have to put in armors (4 each at least) so i dont mind giving up 2 slots for equal recharge taunt. I never took and never will take the 2nd taunt pool, as i know my abilities and limits.
Then again, back to the dmg vs agro story. Are you some squishy scary blaster that is scared already 1 mob of 16 is attacking you? I said it, and said it again, know your enemy. Of each group i know quite roughly wich to agro and wich can be handled by the team, you work as a team right? I suddenly dont have mudpots, melee, aoe, target aoe powers?
I've chosen perma-GA way over a year ago, by the sole reason i dont want to worry about my health in 99% of the time (ex psi). On a STF there is 99% always a kin around, to break my final penalty of -slow (however rooted has it also). If i exemp down pre-32, i always have my stone and nrg armor, ok slotted and sure will do its job.
People yell tankers need to keep 100% agro at any time, how do all those people solo missions? They never attack mobs that are attacking them? screaming and running away in fear looking for a tanker?
And yes, i see the other armors weaker then GA, i see more penalties in stone armors then i currently have in GA. But that is purely for my view, my experience and my preferences. Slots, toggle drop, gap fillers on damage, 'unlucky' moments. I never been fan of defence, too much luck based if you survive another wave of imcomming attacks, the reason i dont have a ice tanker.
Each has it pros and cons, i am a supporter of the GA side. That doesnt mean i'm lazy, stupid, a bad player or wrong thinking, its the way i choose to go. And for all those who've i've teamed with, it was good enough. I have seen several stone tankers doing a awsome job, as i was once too pre-32. And i'm sure they will continue doing a great job, likewise i will do mine.
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Then again, back to the dmg vs agro story. Are you some squishy scary blaster that is scared already 1 mob of 16 is attacking you?
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If it's an even level minion, then no. If it's a +3 boss, then yes.
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There were two moments that made me want to build a 'stone' rather than 'granite' tank:
1) watching a stoney try to tank the psi clock king in GA, despite having minerals
2) watching a stoney get end drained by malta because he 'forgot' about rooted
i'm way too lazy to actually build one however, as i have too many toons to level up as it is. so when i10 came along and we got to choose a build to get lvld up to 50 for us on US test server.. i decided to try my planned build.
Hero Plan by Mids' Hero Designer 1.153
http://www.onthejazz.co.uk/hu/mhd.php
Mr Motivator: Level 50 Natural Tanker
Primary Power Set: Stone Armour
Secondary Power Set: Fiery Melee
Power Pool: Teleportation
Power Pool: Fitness
Power Pool: Fighting
Hero Profile:
Level 1: Rock Armour -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(3), DefBuff(3), EndRdx(5)
Level 1: Scorch -- Empty(A)
Level 2: Earth's Embrace -- Heal(A), Heal(5), Heal(7), RechRdx(7), RechRdx(9), RechRdx(9)
Level 4: Combustion -- Dmg(A), Dmg(17), Dmg(19), Acc(19), RechRdx(23), RechRdx(23)
Level 6: Mud Pots -- EndRdx(A), EndRdx(15), Acc(15), Acc(43), Taunt(45), Taunt(46)
Level 8: Rooted -- Heal(A), Heal(11), Heal(11)
Level 10: Recall Friend -- Range(A)
Level 12: Brimstone Armour -- ResDam(A), ResDam(13), ResDam(13), EndRdx(17)
Level 14: Teleport -- EndRdx(A), EndRdx(27)
Level 16: Swift -- Run(A), Run(25), Run(25)
Level 18: Health -- Heal(A), Heal(46), Heal(46)
Level 20: Stamina -- EndMod(A), EndMod(21), EndMod(21)
Level 22: Kick -- Empty(A)
Level 24: Crystal Armour -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(27), EndRdx(34), DefBuff(34)
Level 26: Tough -- EndRdx(A), ResDam(37), ResDam(37), ResDam(40)
Level 28: Fire Sword Circle -- Dmg(A), Dmg(29), Dmg(29), Acc(31), RechRdx(33), RechRdx(33)
Level 30: Weave -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(31), DefBuff(31), EndRdx(36)
Level 32: Granite Armour -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(33), DefBuff(34), ResDam(36), ResDam(36), ResDam(37)
Level 35: Taunt -- Taunt(A), Taunt(50)
Level 38: Greater Fire Sword -- Dmg(A), Dmg(39), Dmg(39), Acc(39), Acc(40), RechRdx(40)
Level 41: Incinerate -- Dmg(A), Dmg(42), Dmg(42), Acc(42), Acc(43), RechRdx(43)
Level 44: Build Up -- RechRdx(A), RechRdx(45), RechRdx(45)
Level 47: Minerals -- DefBuff(A), DefBuff(48), DefBuff(48), EndRdx(48)
Level 49: Stone Skin -- ResDam(A), ResDam(50), ResDam(50)
------------
Level 1: Rest -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Brawl -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Sprint -- Empty(A)
Level 1: Gauntlet
when i designed this build, i had never played a stone tank past lvl 4. I'll admit that there are a few changes i'd make to it now, having played it for a while.. mainly end redux in attacks. But slotting set IOs in the attacks would solve the end problem, and i'm sure a numina +regen +recov wouldnt go a miss either. I'd also like to fit in one of the epic holds somewhere
Firstly, any comments on the build are more than welcome. they are very unlikely to happen, because the toon is merely a test toon, with no respecs on the US test server.... however i'd like to know where you think i've gone right/wrong...
having played the toon, i'm also at somewhat of a loss as to why people run perma-GA tbh.. It seemed no squisher than any other tank i've played, and happily tanked AVs, pylons, lvl 54 rikti and even hami.. so i was just wondering what anyone who plays perma-ga has as their reasoning for it? most people i've spoken to before seem to feel that their tank is squishy without GA, is that common concensus or are there other reasons?