Difference between specific and general defence
By
Blind_Minotaur,
Posted on: 2007-06-19 19:36 in Tankers
Typed defence (Smashing, lethal etc.) provides defence against attacks that are marked as that element.
Positional defence (Melee, ranged, AoE) provides defence against attacks that are flagged as that position type.
When you're attacked, the game checks what types of defence affect that attack (For example, if you're attacked with Energy Torrent, smashing, energy and AoE), then checks which of those defence types you have, and uses the highest value. So, if you have 5% energy defence, 10% AoE defence, and 15% smashing defence, you'd have 15% defence against energy torrent.
The only thing i dont know yet about that last part, take that stupid wailer for moment. Sonic attack, being smash and energy. Picking a stone brute you get (quick numbers, just example) 20% SL and 15% NRG defence.
Now does the system do a 1 check only (20% def) or will it check again, asume it hit dispite the 20% SL def, on the NRG defence? In other words, is it even usefull to have the NRG def toggle running against wailers as your SL defence is already taking all the tohit checks (exception on the cone sleep, wich is only nrg, but asume we have mez-resist ey).
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
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Now does the system do a 1 check only (20% def) or will it check again, asume it hit dispite the 20% SL def, on the NRG defence? In other words, is it even usefull to have the NRG def toggle running against wailers as your SL defence is already taking all the tohit checks (exception on the cone sleep, wich is only nrg, but asume we have mez-resist ey).
[/ QUOTE ]Only 1 check, so layered defence will be useless in that situation.
No, only the best defence works, so in your case, the energy defence toggle does nothing.
@Unthing ... Mostly on Union.
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Now does the system do a 1 check only (20% def) or will it check again, asume it hit dispite the 20% SL def, on the NRG defence? In other words, is it even usefull to have the NRG def toggle running against wailers as your SL defence is already taking all the tohit checks (exception on the cone sleep, wich is only nrg, but asume we have mez-resist ey).
[/ QUOTE ]Only 1 check, so layered defence will be useless in that situation.
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Does this mean that typed defense bonuses from IO sets are useless to my ninjitsu stalker? >_> Gah. This is not good.
It seem it is. I remember that they fixed up a bunch of powers like Forcfield bubbles that they both typed as location defence give. Same with weave and that leadership one.
IIRC most setbonus give typed defence, only a few i've seen with location based.
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
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It seem it is. I remember that they fixed up a bunch of powers like Forcfield bubbles that they both typed as location defence give. Same with weave and that leadership one.
IIRC most setbonus give typed defence, only a few i've seen with location based.
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Theres a few positionals but it usually requires slotting 5 or 6 of a set 
edit:
makos bite 6=ranged def
touch of death 6=melee def
multistrike 5=aoe def,6=melee def
sciroccos dervish 5=aoe def
ruin 5=aoe def
thunderstrike 6=ranged def
detonation 5=aoe def
calibrated accuracy 6=ranged def
executioners contract 6=ranged def
extreme measures 5=aoe def, 6=melee def
harmonized healing 5=aoe def
miracle 5=aoe def
numina 6= ranged def
aegis 5=aoe def
reactive armor 5= aoe def
titanium coating 6=melee def
serendipity 5=aoe def
cacophony 5=aoe def, 6=ranged def
malaise 6=ranged def
perplex 5=aoe def
induced coma 6=melee def
impeded swiftness 6=melee def
pacing of the turtle 6=ranged def
tempered readiness 6=ranged def
debilitative action 5=aoe def
enfeebled operation 6=melee def
trap of the hunter 6=ranged def
..etc got bored.
I guess it makes sense to have positional defense up there so characters couldnt pile up crazy def thats always on too easily, but I dont like the typed def bonuses being so useless.
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Now does the system do a 1 check only (20% def) or will it check again, asume it hit dispite the 20% SL def, on the NRG defence? In other words, is it even usefull to have the NRG def toggle running against wailers as your SL defence is already taking all the tohit checks (exception on the cone sleep, wich is only nrg, but asume we have mez-resist ey).
[/ QUOTE ]Only 1 check, so layered defence will be useless in that situation.
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Does this mean that typed defense bonuses from IO sets are useless to my ninjitsu stalker? >_> Gah. This is not good.
[/ QUOTE ]Unless you happen to be hit by one of the very few attacks that don't have a position flag, yes.
Wich power be stated without position? Would asume powers such as calltrop and sortlike, but dont they have a auto-hit thing?
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
In general, it is much easier to increase positional defense (melee, range, area) than typed defense (smash, lethal energy), simply because there are so many more types of damage than there are attack vectors. Thus it makes sense that vectored defenses lie at the end of the set bonus progression (at 5 or 6 slots, usually).
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Wich power be stated without position? Would asume powers such as calltrop and sortlike, but dont they have a auto-hit thing?
[/ QUOTE ]Those are flagged as AoE. The only player powers I know of that are (or were, not sure if it's been changed) not flagged as any position were those from the mind control set.
You mean its more beneficial, not easier..?
Hmm, slightly related question that has bugged me a bit, whats the formula to count the total defense (typed or positional) when taking enhancement buffs and set buffs int account?
ie. If I have base of for instance 13,8% def(ranged), and I have enhancements that state (+50% defense) in the tooltip, Is the resulting total defense base + base*(enh buff %) = 20.7% in this case? Or is the enh buff counted on as %-units (which would sound too big)?
Where do the set bonuses apply in this? Straight to the total or what? Is there some place ingame where I can see the total defense? I guess there isnt.. Actually I think it would be best if the enhancement management screen would show the totals instead of buff amounts.. OR maybe not cause people like seeing numbers and in some cases the benefits are negligible..
I would simply say:
base def + enh = total def of a power.
All powers added + SetBonus % = total defence.
Base 20% def ranged, 2 20% SOs make 20 x 1.40 = 28%
Setbonus 3% ranged.
Resist unique 3% def all
Total; 28 + 3 + 3 = 34% ranged
Might be bitty confusing, but would be lame if the 3% setbonus was a enhance bonus to your base def values (aka 1/3rd of a TO).
But iirc, highest def-enhancements i've seen are 26ish%, the IO lvl50's. As you mention +50% def.
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
Basically the idea is that you've got the Base defence that a Power gives, say 30% Melee.
You then enhance this by sticking 3 SO DefBuffs in there. This gives just under a 60% increase due to ED.
So now you've got 30 Base + (30 x 0.6) Enhancement = 48% Melee Defence Total.
If you then use Positional-Defence Set Bonuses from IOs, they add directly to your total defence %, so a 3% Bonus to Melee would put you at 51% Melee Defence total.
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2 20% SOs make 20 x 1.40 = 28%
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Example from game, my danger sense (lvl 42 stalker), has three +23,2% def enhancements. The buff/debuff value game gives while hovering mousepointer over the power is 57.4%.
So my total def would be according to you 13.8% + 57.4% = 71,2% def (ranged/aoe) I somehow doubt that...
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Basically the idea is that you've got the Base defence that a Power gives, say 30% Melee.
You then enhance this by sticking 3 SO DefBuffs in there. This gives just under a 60% increase due to ED.
So now you've got 30 Base + (30 x 0.6) Enhancement = 48% Melee Defence Total.
If you then use Positional-Defence Set Bonuses from IOs, they add directly to your total defence %, so a 3% Bonus to Melee would put you at 51% Melee Defence total.
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So it goes how I expected, thanks Mael.
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base def + enh = total def of a power.
Base 20% def ranged, 2 20% SOs make 20 x 1.40 = 28%
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Well heres what is confusing, first you say + and then you use multiply...
ps. Ninjitsu base values are so low :<
Strictly speeking, it's:
base def x (100% + enh%) = total def
I really should do something about this signature.
Sorry, was bitty confused written down. Hope Mael put it down better 
value + percentage = value x (1 + (perc/100)).
so 3 SO = 20 + 60% = 20 x (1 + 0,60) = 20 x 1.6 = 32%
Confusing part is that the value itself is already a percentage
I thought Ninjitsu are equal to SR? Else it compensate by having a heal/confuse power wich SR doesnt have.
50)Sinergy X/(50)Mika.
(50)MaceX/(50)Encore
Sign the petition, dont let CoH go down! SIGN!
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value + percentage = value x (1 + (perc/100)).
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Yes, but in this case the value itself is also a %-value, so it is possible to count the increase as percentage-units like
14% + 56% = 70%
OR
like you say, normal %-increase: 14% * 1.56 = 21,84%.
Its much easier to say this in finnish, apparently the double meaning doesnt exist so much in english language. I was originally wondering which of the options it is.
ps. I got it right the first time so theres no confusion about the formula anymore, I just wanted to say what made me confused in the first place
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it is possible to count the increase as percentage-units like
14% + 56% = 70%
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No, dosn't work this way.
I really should do something about this signature.
Sorry to gatecrash this thread but reading it has got me rather worried.
At the moment I'm concentrating on collecting IO sets for my Energy Aura Brute. The EA defence powers are typed defence. Ive tried to increase my defence as much as possible and as a result I've focussed on sets that grant any additional defence. As I already have high defence values to all types of damage except psi am I wasting my time trying to get bonuses that increase location based defence?
As I say, sorry for gatecrashing this thread but I'm worried that I've wasted a lot of time/inf/effort.
Positional defense may occasionally help you against some attacks that are have no damage type, but for the most part, yes, as an energy brute you are waisting your time collecting those.
I really should do something about this signature.
Set Bonuses that increase Positional (Melee/Ranged/AoE) Defence will only stack with Powers that give that defence. Likewise, Bonuses that increase Typed Defence will only stack with Powers that give that defence.
The only IO I know of that works differently is the "+3 Defence to all" Global IO from the "Steadfast Protection" damage resistance set... which works like "Weave"/"Combat Jumping" and will stack with any +defence.
Whats the difference between specific defence (like fire, energy or lethal) and general defence (melee, ranged and aoe) ?