I guess that's true. I mean, there are bank robberies and such, but the rest is not really... evil. You attack the different gangs like in CoH.
I think being able to attack innocents on the street would be more evil!
And yes, that does sound like a good idea. I was thinking about making such a character.
Er, I draw attention to....
Kidnapping people from the streets and delivering them to Vahzilok.
Kidnapping people to experiment on them.
Killing Heroes so the body can be dissected and his powers used against Paragon.
Bombing hospitals.
Actively hindering the reconstruction process of Paragon.
Mutating Rikti attack victims into actual Rikti.
Murdering a Heroine's lover, so she'll come out of hiding; then kill her too.
Capturing various people so they'll be exposed to torture.
Bombing Longbow bases with the staff still inside.
etc, etc.
Anti-Heroes in CoV just wouldn't be that believable unless they were done extremely well. Everything you do - even when attacking the other villain groups - is motivated by someone's greed, selfishness or desire to gain more power.
Ah, but who says you have to play every single mission IC? Just pick the ones that suit the character, and rule that the rest are OOC. I do it with my characters all the time.
Or indeed, as I play an antihero on CoH, is on missions which the description doesn't quite apply to my way of thinking, I chnage the premise of the mission mentally, so I pretend I'm completing it for the ends I want to achieve. 
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Ah, but who says you have to play every single mission IC? Just pick the ones that suit the character, and rule that the rest are OOC. I do it with my characters all the time.
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How do you get around it being Arachnos that are recalling you to the hospitals? That you're being gauged by Arachnos? That they're keeping tabs on you? There's just too many mitigating factors to go completely against the point of the game; namely playing Villains in CoH, or Heroes in CoV.
Sure, ignore certain missions, but you can't ignore all of it; work with the world, not against it.
Furthermore, changing the entire objective of a mission? I'd never be able to take that seriously. It's borderline god-moding; changing something that's explicitly stated to suit your own ends. If it's left ambiguous, sure; go nuts.
When people start changing the whole thing though, that's where my issue is.
If you want to play an anti-hero, why not just feel free to do so instead of saying CoV isn't suited for real villainy, and then persisting that in the face of evidence to the contrary?
... I dunno, just a thought I had.
I never said it wasn't suited to villainy, but not being able to attack civilians???
LIke Wordy said, you have to fudge ALOT in either game to suit your own concept 
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I never said it wasn't suited to villainy, but not being able to attack civilians???
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Um, it's a City of Villains but that doesn't mean Lord Recluse is going to let you run around, beating the [censored] out of his followers for no reason.
You also said it wasn't suited to "proper" villainy; being evil isn't just about cackling and throwing cars at people.
Anyway, Mayhem Missions are coming in I7. That'll suit the more psychopathic villains.
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LIke Wordy said, you have to fudge ALOT in either game to suit your own concept
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Fudging a few details so your concept can fit is far different from having to go against the established narrative in an unbelievable way.
As I said, there's far too many mitigating factors involved to play an "Anti-Hero" in CoV convincingly.
City of Villains is more like Organized Crime than it is flat out villainy. If you want to play a crazed psycho murderer who goes on killing sprees against civilians all the time, that won't fly. In fact, you'll probably become such a liability the arbiters will rule that you should be found out and terminated for the good of the Rouge Isles.
Just because you're a villain doesn't mean you have to be self destructive.
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Furthermore, changing the entire objective of a mission? I'd never be able to take that seriously. It's borderline god-moding; changing something that's explicitly stated to suit your own ends. If it's left ambiguous, sure; go nuts.
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It worked for me, seeing as I soloed most of my way to level 40, and through about 1/4 of levels 41-49, and as I was a hero, most things were applicable, but on some misisons that didn't gel properly, it helped.
Obviously, in a RP team situation, an approach like this is less likely to work, doesn't mean it'll never work though, Finn may be able to use this method and shape it to a way that does work with full team consent etc.
That's the great thing about RP in this game, without set guidelines, you can concentrate on making things fun for yourself, without stepping in on someone else's style of gameplay.
:/ I was asking if there was such an SG, or if anyone would want to form one at some point.
I'm not saying everyone SHOULD Rp the way Max, Wordy and myself do. And if we aren't affecting you, why should it matter to you?
I'm actually pointing out how difficult it would be to come across as a convincing SG.
How would it effect me? Simple.
A group of Heroes running around in the Isles, completely opposed against Recluse, and there isn't anything I can do in response to their actions.
It's one thing to tweak what's there so you can fit your Villain into CoV or your Hero into CoH, but to try and turn the game lore on it's head so you can be a Hero in CoV, and vice versa, is something else entirely.
So, changing how you or your group view the reason and outcome of a mission (which doesn't affect anyone else) is borderline godmoding? How? It's simply re-interpreting the game. Can you honestly tell me you'd play through Frostfire 5 times and not either decide it was all OOC, or start changing and re-writing major details (like why it's the same map over and over again?).
As for Recluse letting people take on Arachnos troops, it happens all the time in CoV! Everyone fights Arachnos. And there are enough Longbow heroes running around that it's perfectly believable that a large number of people opposed to Arachnos can operate if they're careful. Burke the Mercenary is a perfect example of a non-heroic character who would probably be inclined to take on Arachnos if it suited his needs.
I should point out, I rarely (in fact, never) RP using the hospital mediport system, nor the use of NPC trainers. I don't like the concept, it doesn't fit my characters, so I simply ignore it. I do the same in CoV. I'll happily work with the setting, but if there's something I don't really like about it, I'll ignore it. If you try to rationalise the whole setting, or even the majority of it, soon the holes in the setting become apparent.
Besides, Arachnos can't watch all of the Rogue Isles at once, and a careful anti-hero can easily slip between the cracks. It would make for something quite interesting to play.
Edit: Just a thought Syra, have all of your CoV characters come to the Rogue Isles after being broken out of the Zig in Breakout?
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So, changing how you or your group view the reason and outcome of a mission (which doesn't affect anyone else) is borderline godmoding? How? It's simply re-interpreting the game. Can you honestly tell me you'd play through Frostfire 5 times and not either decide it was all OOC, or start changing and re-writing major details (like why it's the same map over and over again?).
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The impression I got is that he completely changes the outcome for the sake of him disagreeing with it; not because he does the same thing repeatedly.
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As for Recluse letting people take on Arachnos troops, it happens all the time in CoV! Everyone fights Arachnos. And there are enough Longbow heroes running around that it's perfectly believable that a large number of people opposed to Arachnos can operate if they're careful. Burke the Mercenary is a perfect example of a non-heroic character who would probably be inclined to take on Arachnos if it suited his needs.
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Actually, I think you'll find the missions - especially the later ones - elaborate on this. The different factions within Arachnos do fight amongst one another, that's true, but they're not aiming to bring down Arachnos entirely as a Hero would. Secondly, the Destined Ones - which a Hero wouldn't be - are given a certain amount of relief, but they're not completely immune.
Finally, Burke's dialogue and arcs heavily suggest that Arachnos are fully aware of what he's doing, and are even using him for their own ends.
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I should point out, I rarely (in fact, never) RP using the hospital mediport system, nor the use of NPC trainers. I don't like the concept, it doesn't fit my characters, so I simply ignore it. I do the same in CoV. I'll happily work with the setting, but if there's something I don't really like about it, I'll ignore it. If you try to rationalise the whole setting, or even the majority of it, soon the holes in the setting become apparent.
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But he's asking to create a group of Heroes that operate under Recluse's nose, using the contacts within his organisation, and basically being very overt about things. How do you rationalise getting away with that? People who aren't destined ones or who aren't serving the end goal of Arachnos don't enjoy any sort of leniency.
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Besides, Arachnos can't watch all of the Rogue Isles at once, and a careful anti-hero can easily slip between the cracks. It would make for something quite interesting to play.
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But once again, the things a Hero would be doing wouldn't be "easily" slipping between the cracks.
Recluse has a hugely oppressive Government; political repression, propaganda turning the civilians against the mainlaind...etc. Any freedoms they have are only illusions Recluse put together so they won't outright rebel; this is explored in a few story arcs later on down the line.
It would make an interesting character perhaps, but as I said, it's more than likely going to come across as ill thought out.
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Edit: Just a thought Syra, have all of your CoV characters come to the Rogue Isles after being broken out of the Zig in Breakout?
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Yes, they have. Longbow is just outside the Zig gates, the Freedom Phalanx is on it's way and there's incredibly well trained, highly equipped troops shifting the prisoners out in droves.
What I don't do is "slip between the cracks" and have a Villain character running around in Atlas.
I see your point.
But it's unlikely our characters would ever encounter each other, let alone try and outdo each other.
Are you telling me that whilst playing within an SG, you consider the actions of EVERY character you see/hear?
That sounds more like godmodding than what we're discussing.
ALL we're saying is you play it your way, we'll play it ours.
Now can we just leave it at that?
Sheesh...
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The impression I got is that he completely changes the outcome for the sake of him disagreeing with it; not because he does the same thing repeatedly.
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And the problem with this is, what? For example, I believe there's a mission in which a villain begs you to kill her at the end, and you do. Also, a Crey mission (TF?) where you blow up a clone lab, including everyone inside it. Nevermore does not kill, so he would do neither of these things, therefore I disagree with them, and change the outcome.
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But once again, the things a Hero would be doing wouldn't be "easily" slipping between the cracks.
Recluse has a hugely oppressive Government; political repression, propaganda turning the civilians against the mainlaind...etc. Any freedoms they have are only illusions Recluse put together so they won't outright rebel; this is explored in a few story arcs later on down the line.
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Read Dark Knight Returns and Dark Knight Strikes Again. Batman manages to wage a secret war against an opressive government very successfully. Just because a hero is operating, doesn't mean they're making themselves openly known to those around them. I sincerely doubt this SG would go around openly "recruiting" or advertising their presence. A hidden resistence movement against an oppressive dictatorship is a classic staple of fiction.
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Yes, they have. Longbow is just outside the Zig gates, the Freedom Phalanx is on it's way and there's incredibly well trained, highly equipped troops shifting the prisoners out in droves.
What I don't do is "slip between the cracks" and have a Villain character running around in Atlas
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Have you considered ever treating Breakout as OOC and making a character who wans't one of the Destined Ones?
Villains operate throughout Paragon City, causing havoc. Who's to say the same can't happen in the Rogue Isles?
"Um, it's a City of Villains but that doesn't mean Lord Recluse is going to let you run around, beating the [censored] out of his followers for no reason."
He does it all the time. he calls is 'Testing' people.
Or at least, me makes his troopers do it.
Okay, the OP asked for people to stop, I think the points have been made, please respect the OP's request.
Thank you.
Bridger/Rockjaw can this thread be removed? I didn't expect a simple question could cause this much grief.
Alright, I did have another response lined up but I'll drop the subject as requested.
Dont know if there is an anti hero SG, but I'd create a char for such a thing, the idea has merit and does not break the game in any way.
Its easy to see how some elements of hero society would be displaced into arachnos's camp by violent actions or a zero tolerance approach to anything that opposes them.
Hell the hero could think hes a god and has the right to do what ever he/she wants, and be really narced that he/she is forced to work for Recluse due to the stupidity of paragon
I'll admit there are certain dangers regarding potential godmoding in such an idea. In an environment such as GG, where characters regular meet up, if such a group, so obviously opposed to the establishment, were to appear and openly declare who they were, they would probably be hunted down and eliminated. The only way for such a group to function is to perhaps make posts in Roleplaying indicating their activities, allowing other RP groups to try to find out who they are, if they wish, or to exist in their own contunuity seperate from the core roleplaying groups.
Now, in CoV there is something of an advantage in that there is currently no centralised roleplaying with which such a group would interfere. Of course that runs the danger of the group being quite insular and wpuld, eventually, start to have interest dwindle should more open roleplaying become prominent.
Still, I think the idea of an underground resistance group, whether acknowledged and aided by Longbow or not, could work if done well. If it were to be a part of an open continuity like GG, there would need to be the opportunity for the group to come under fire from Arachnos and other Villain Groups.
It's still, however, the best reason in the world I can think of why potentially large numbers of characters in CoV would gather with any kind of common interest.
Indeed, any meeting of large numbers of characters in CoV, particularly large groups, would have to happen in secret or somehow away from Arachnos' eyes and ears, because I sincerely doubt Lord Recluse would permit the potential chance that a large force of powerful villains might get it into their heads to try to depose him. He keeps the factions of Arachnos fighting each other for a reason, so they're all too bust fighting each other to get the idea of fighting him into their heads.
I thought the subject was to be dropped in respect of the OP... *Not at all amused*
You want my two cents? It's pure and simple godmodding, no matter how you do it and look at it, it is godmodding, which in turn ruins other people's fun. What right do you have to do so? None what so ever.
So, can we all just drop the subject and really respect the OP's request? Thank you.
Agreeing here with Aisla, on both counts. The subject was being dropped, otherwise I'd have commented last night, and, fundamentally, this is worse than the issues we had around Rafius. He was accused (and sometimes rightly so) of god-mode RP, but at least Rafius was a hero turned bad. This would be starting out to play a hero in a villain setting. Frankly, you'd be unable to RP with any of those outside your SG.
I also don't see the point, quite frankly. I don't see the point of playing a villain in CoH, nor do I see the point of playing a hero in CoV. The games aren't designed for it, you're ignoring the entire game concept so you can play a good-guy Stalker (or whatever). If you have to subvert the game setting so much to justify your character I'd assert that there's no point in doing it.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
I haven't bought CoV yet, but when I do I'd be hoping to join or start an SG that consisted of antiheroes rather than villains. Examples being the Punisher, Year One: Batman, MAX Comics' Nighthawk. Basically heroes with a darker side than most.
Personally the lack of real villainy in CoV caters more for the dark hero style of play.
Anyone be interested?