Perhaps if you were interested in PvP and were more involved in it you wouldnt have this negative view of the people who take part. 99% of the people i've met in PvP have been a great bunch, and i'd go as far as to say that the community spirit that i had thought gone from the game has proved itself to be very much alive and kicking since i started going to Sirens.
Dashing through PvP zones to get to missions you are farming isn't exactly going to let you see the heart of this side of the game.
Yeah thats very ture I do missons in Bloody Bay with my stalker but I also use him to PvP in there as well. And as most people dont see me I have not had problems there. But with my Lv 50 Blaster he has been genked a few times in warburg not nothing excessive. When I play my stalker I trash talk loads but its not meant to be personal to any one if some dose take it personaly I just PM em telling em its just trash talk and Im sorry if they take it worng way. But I have to say most of the PvP people I have meet have a good bunch so far like I have siad you see good and bad people in a walks of life.
And if you do get griefing in the PvP zone your best bet is to petion the player. If you come to the broads and post up about it and they see that they have got to that badly there gonna be after you agian.
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All nice and dandy saying people should stop whining and the like,
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Firstly Eh? who mentioned stop whining? Not a very useful term and not one i've read here either.
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I have yet to meet a roleplayer who actively goes out to harass other players, makes them feel inferior and cusses them to kingdom come.
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This kinda shows a them and us attitude Aisla, RP'ers can be just as balshy as the next person whether in game or on here. This isnt about RP Vrs PvP'ers as that would be rather silly tbh. You cant tar all PvP'ers just becasue you had one or two bad incidents you've been around long enough to know you come across muppets in PvE or anywhere you cant judge something on limited knowledge of PvP here. Not everyone likes RP either and as I pointed out before for that most part RP'er are left in peace to RP away yet PvP'ers have to accept bad press?
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PvP -does- have a fair number of rotten apples who -do- actively go out to make people's lives a living hell in game.
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Again i refer you above, its impossible to say all PvP'ers are bad and therefore all RP'ers are good it just doent work like that.Just because I dont agree with some tactics used or teh rudeness some display (As labeled in a few posts your included) but it doesnt ruin my game and it should t ruin anyones either. Its still a point that by entering you consent - PvP'ers didnt make that rule Cryptic did. And as i said before If you want left alone ask - most will eave you. There are bad apples everywhere not just there.
This thread is about etiquete in a aPvP zone but seems to have a few pointers on board etiquete too. Everyone, whether you agree or not, whether you like that aspect of the game or not - have a right to post. It would break hell loose if someone went onto RP thread and slagged it now wouldnt it?
Some enjoy PvP others dont - let those who do play.
Zeph, I think you actively avoid reading Aisla's posts unless you plan to call her negative. Did you bother reading the one where she explained why she is so negative about PvP?
She's been into MMOs for years, and she's been plagued by PKers for years. I've watched her screen as geeky little idiots camp outside the entry safe-zone in T4C destroying anything that tried to get out. Why? Because they could. And why could they? Because the game's GMs wouldn't do anything about it.
My personal experience in Warburg is that, when you actually find another hero/villain, they don't behave particularly well. So, IMO, the community spirit is suffering from having PvP in the game, not gaining.
I understand you used the word 'farming' in there as a negative statement meant to insult Aisla and anyone else doing the same. At least we are there, in the zone, actually doing missions that improve your ability to splatter other toons over the scenery. Personally, I do dash from mission to mission and I'm quite happy to describe it as 'farming' because that's exactly what I'm doing. If Cryptic have been stupid enough to replace Dreck with an alternative farming mechanism which they think is legitimate due to the potential for PvP, then that's their lookout, not yours. While I'm dashing, however, if someone wants to try to stop me, then they are welcome to try (as long as it doesn't constitute harassment). So far, two have, and they were both pretty much total cowards (Rock Eagle says he takes pot shots at me, but doesn't count in the two, I haven't noticed the pot shots 
).
I have a pretty good idea where the 'heart' of PvP is, and in CoX, that heart is in the arena, holding friendly matches with people you can trust to follow a few ground rules. (Maybe I should have tried S4, but I really don't have the head for high-end PvP so I doubt I'd have got very far and it didn't interest me.) The PvP Zones, especially Warburg, represent no kind of 'heart' from my view. They are places designed to appeal to people who don't like rules or friends, unless they happen to be useful for now. I'm not saying everyone in the Zones is like that, I am saying that the Arenas could easily fulfill the requirement for 'fair' PvP and the fact they are largely empty shows that 'fair' PvP isn't something the majority want.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
I do read her posts, and i get a negative vibe from them hence saying she has a negative view of the PvP zones. I don't "Actively avoid reading" her posts. I just seee no relevance from judging CoV/CoH PvP from experience of other MMO's.
Farming is a single word that takes less to type than saying someone is doing missions over and over, you and aisla are doing missions over and over, therefore you are farming. It's a term not an insult.
I no longer play CoH, i spend all my playing time on CoV where i would say the heart of PvP is certainly not the arena. I have yet to meet a villain who uses it (not saying no-one uses it, i just haven't met any who have said they do).
Having bad experiences in other MMO's doesn't give a basis for slating PvP in this game. Both of you have said in not so many words that you havent given it a go and aren't willing to give it a go. If on the way to missions a Stalker takes pot shots and runs away, it doesn't show the game in a bad light, it is merely a Stalker doing what a Stalker has to do to kill a scrapper (hit and runs till the Scrappers panic buttons are recharging).
I'm sure aisla has had bad experiences on other MMO's but why say PvP in this game is crap just because she doesnt like it in others? I wouldn't start saying FFXI is boring therefore this game must be boring.
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My personal experience in Warburg is that, when you actually find another hero/villain, they don't behave particularly well. So, IMO, the community spirit is suffering from having PvP in the game, not gaining.
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I really dont think thats true, Its new let it grow a lil before condeming it. I understand you dont like it but not everyone likes the same aspects of the game - not everyone likes RPfor example or the new power sets. Its not really fair to say its ruining the game or teh community. Folks can manage to have fall outs regardless of whether PvP exsists.
I understand why you and Aisla mught be Anti-Pvp but you cant tar them all with the same brush (oops de ja vu) the flip side of that is that you must show respect for those who do, its only fair if you want respected. This sint about other MMO's its about CoV and CoH, i never liked PvP in WoW but i like it here they are sure not that same thing at all...
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I understand you used the word 'farming' in there as a negative statement meant to insult Aisla and anyone else doing the same. At least we are there, in the zone, actually doing missions that improve your ability to splatter other toons over the scenery. Personally, I do dash from mission to mission and I'm quite happy to describe it as 'farming' because that's exactly what I'm doing. If Cryptic have been stupid enough to replace Dreck with an alternative farming mechanism which they think is legitimate due to the potential for PvP, then that's their lookout, not yours.
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I really dont think he meant farming in the way you seem to have taken it although i'd watch mentioning Drek so lightly as that does tend to awaken flares. I dont think everything is an insult to Aisla, most of us have bheen around here from COH early on if not from Beta and I'd rekkon the majority have played other MMO's too but this is CoV now not FFix or WoW etc etc.
Teh arenas were used, perhaps not as much as hoped but it stil stands they were. No matter what you or I think the fact is you enter a PvP zone then you are open target - something which if you dont approve of is a matter to take up with the Devs not the players who do like it - its not their lookout as its not Zep's regards replacing Drek (as you pointed out) not that he cares as poor uncle Drek must be awfully lonely these days
I am one of many converts to PvP altho there are many who were into it from arena and S4, i never used the arenas once but have been in zones numerous times and enjoyed it, its unfair or judge and condem all PvPers or PvP on limited negative experiance.
Its not personal, not should it be taken that way or made out to be its that which spoils threads, discuss why you dont like PvP and except others do but it should never be made personal.. However there is a negative vibe in all recent posts from you both, which in part i understand but you cant expect to voice that and for PvP'ers not to respond, its unfair to tar and allthat (de ja vu again)
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I just seee no relevance from judging CoV/CoH PvP from experience of other MMO's.
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I'm sure aisla has had bad experiences on other MMO's but why say PvP in this game is [censored] just because she doesnt like it in others? I wouldn't start saying FFXI is boring therefore this game must be boring.
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Okay, thing is that saying a game is [censored] because another game is [censored] is stupid. The two games are different, assuming it isn't the same production company and they aren't linked, that's just being silly.
PvP, on the other hand isn't a game, it's an aspect of many games. Comparing PvP on one game to PvP on another is not only valid, but perfectly reasonable, as I would discuss the relative merits of RP in WoW vs RP in CoH, or the spell system in D&D vs the spell system in RuneQuest.
Now, the mechanics of PvP in CoH aren't the same as those in NwN or T4C or WoW, but the mentality is something else. The threads in the PvP forums suggest that the mentality is very similar across the computer gaming world. Hence, her experiences in other games apply to another, CoX.
Edit: and I think the above answers most of Anaesthesia's post too.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
Comparing them is valid yes. Basing your assumption on what you know from other games.. no. Basing your assumptions on the boards...definately not. You should no better than to judge an aspect of the game by what is said here on the boards. The arguments and flames that you read here just aren't present in the PvP zones on the whole.
Justification for continued posting about why you don't like PvP when you don't take part in it, haven't given it the slightest chance and zoom from mission to mission complaining that people attack you and run away, can't be given by saying PvP'ers are blah blah in X MMO, soo erm they must be the same here and therefore are ruining what could be a good aspect of the game.
Anyway enough of this nonsense, time for me to go have some fun in PvP instead of reading about why you and Aisla don't like PvP and the community there sucks just because erm well just because.
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The arguments and flames that you read here just aren't present in the PvP zones on the whole.
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Actually, no, because the profanity filter on here blocks most of the rude bits. Go sit in Warburg when it gets 'busy' and listen to the broadcast chat.
Please, do go have fun. Promote Community Spirit. I can't stress enough how much that's important to the survival of this game. (That was serious.)
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
Well, actually, to argue a point...
I've given PvP a shot. It was a bit of fun. Not something I'd be willing to spend more than maybe a half hour at, but that's just me. I can't level for longer than an hour without getting bored, either. I prefer my RP.
However, what you cannot deny is that many people fell VERY strongly about PvP, on both sides. Many people bought CoH to get a break from PvP, because they don't enjoy it.
When these people express the reasons why they don't enjoy it, they get jumped on for saying it. Within the first five posts on any thread involving the words "I don't like PvP", you'll get at least one person who says "Suck it up" or "Stop whining". The person who does this is usually a PvPer, of the type who feels no shame in bashing any character they can.
Is this representative of PvPers as a whole? No. Does it create a bad image of PvPers? Yes. Does this attitude, where people can no longer feel free to express an opinion without being told to more or less shut up and be harrassed, harm the CoH/CoV community? Most definitely.
Sure, you could say "we've all heard how some people don't like PvP, why do we have to hear it again?". Well, the same could then apply to complaints about game bugs, requests for more content and Quality of Life additions, discussions on AT builds, etc. This is a forum, paying customers of Cryptic/NC Soft are entitled to express their views in a reasonable manner, and to expect to be treated with maturity and respect.
No-one can deny that the community spirit has suffered greatly since the launch of CoV and PvP in general. Half the threads in the PvP forum are rants between people who don't like PvP and people who think anyone who doesn't like PvP has no right to complain about it.
I honestly feel sorry for new players coming to these boards for the first time.
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haven't given it the slightest chance
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Just FYI again (do I really have to keep repeating this?).
I have tried PvP. I think it's a massively unbalanced, badly constructed, retrofit to a game that was never designed to have PvP in it.
Disclaimer: The above may be humerous, or at least may be an attempt at humour. Try reading it that way.
Posts are OOC unless noted to be IC, or in an IC thread.
Never designed to have PvP in it? Can any of us be sure of this?
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Never designed to have PvP in it? Can any of us be sure of this?
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The fact that every single AT has had to be re-balanced since the addition of PvP would be an indicator towards that. As would the stark difference between the effects of powers in PvE and PvP, the difference of play style in terms of how to slot and use powers, and the fact that there is no reward or risk to base PvP combat.
Also that the original marketing for the game stressed players teaming up with friends online to take on evil threats, not mentioning the potential for combating fellow heroes or villains.
If PvP -was- always intended to be a feature of the game, then judging by the evidence, there is a serious lack of quality control and forethought at Cryptic.
Then again... 
Wordmaker, my point was more that an assumption that PvP is ruining the game from experiences in other MMO's and a couple of experiences in a zone which has been pointed out to be almost uninhabited doesnt really cover the whole story. Someone who isnt willing to try the zones that are mainly used for PvP cant really judge it as a whole in my opinion.
As i've said before, i used to think the arenas were a waste of time (for me they still are) as i've had roughly 3 fun experiences there. Since going to Sirens Call i've discovered a whole new aspect to the game. I never thought i'd say this but it has surprised me by becoming even more enjoyable than PvE. Not only do people interact more in the PvP zones, but the monotony of PvE missions just isnt there. The people behing the toons each employ their own individual tactics and have their own personality behing their character.
I don't deny that their are a few people who put the 'w' into gankers, but overall the community spirit that i've discovered there outweighs those enormously. It is a shame that the minority do ruin it for some people. To those people i'd say stick with it, visit Sirens at night and you may discover that you actually like it and that there is loads of fun to be had.
On another note, wouldn't there be huge potential for RP in the PvP zones? I know it could be ruined by some, but choosing the least inhabited zone to use for it may help.
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On another note, wouldn't there be huge potential for RP in the PvP zones? I know it could be ruined by some, but choosing the least inhabited zone to use for it may help.
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Can I role play ganker? Can I can I!? I'll even respec TPfoe in just for the occasion!
Fighting l33t since 1974
Don't "lol"! Laugh!
Sanity Inc
@8Qbit
On assumptions: As Ravenswing has repeatedly said, he HAS tried the PvP zones, several times. He and Aisla, and a lot of toehrs I know in-game, spend a lot of time in Warburg doing the missions.
I'm not saying PvP is ruining the game. I'm saying the attitude most people get when they express a dislike for it is ruining the -community-
On RP in PvP zones: Been discussed. Many PvP players have posted on such threads saying they'd attack anyone in a PvP zone, regardless of why they were there. It's not worth the hassle, if that's the kind of attitude we'd get if we sent someone a /tell saying "we're roleplaying, please don't attack us".
Aside from which, the level restrictions on PvP zones and the trouble getting to them make it difficult for roleplayers who use level 1 alts as characters, like myself, for secret identities, or characters who are RP-only.
To a certain extent i agree however you cant condem those who like soemthing you dont. Not everyone like RP and some RP'ers dont paint themselves in a good light just as some PvP'ers dont either but this is by no meams universal for them all, but as I said before ppl manage to fall out here with or without PvP its hardly fair to say it alone is ruining a game or community.
I understand teh negative feelings of some but you cant expect the PvP'ers not to respond in kind when attacked. There is a way to get your point across without being rude. That stands for whichever side your on, name calling, deliberately misinterpreting statements and patronising remarks only cause bad feeling and the point that may have been there gets lost.
Those who do speak against dont always get jumped on, sometimes they do just as much jumping it has to be said I cant condone the wording like 'suck it up' or whatever you refer to but like I say you must see the tone of some post are gonna get folks riled.
Personally I have no problem with RP'ers or PvP'ers on teh whole. Once again you cant tar or pigeon hole people just because of a player or limited experiance. I dont mind ppl saying they dont like PvP but they must accept that some do - you cant expect respect for your opinion if your not willing to give it...
Well city of villains has been on the cards since city of heros has come out and it was always the intention to add PvP to the games then. The fact that they didnt make the game blanced to PvP before well thats any ones guess.
Also on the fact that the Comunity is going down hill since PvP has been added I have not noticed that TBH. And the people that get called to suck it up are the people that complian about stupid stuff in pvp like well getting killed. Its a PvP zone for god sake no is forcing you to go in there at gun piont its your choice to go to the pvp zone if you get griefed pettion just like you would in PvE. I play a stalker in CoV and a Master Mind both very differnt but I have had people moan at my stalker because I assasin them and I have also had people moan at my Master Mind because I use fly these people in my opion are the ones ruining PvP as they seem to think that me beating them via tactics is me cheating.
A friend of mine got pettioned by another person in bloody bay because he was kicking her [censored] she was on a team with my stalker and he was playing a hero she seemed to think that the use of insp was cheating and so pettioned him about a bit silly really as I told her she should do the same thing her self but as it was my mate was only using aim build up.
I agree that some people do simply rant about not liking PvP, with nothing constructive to add. Personally, I think it's unbalanced. Cryptic can't even keep all of the powersets balanced for PvE, let alone PvP. The disparity between Defence and Resistance powersets is a stark highlight of this.
And yes, there are some roleplayers who do present themselves badly, and give the rest of us a bad name. I've argued with many roleplayers on differences of opinion. Thing is, it has to be admitted that roleplayers are a secretive bunch. And in all honesty, the Roleplaying forum has seen a lot less flaming than the PvP forum.
Also, I'd like to point out that I've never seen a post by a rolplayer I know simply ranting aimlessly about PvP. All of the reasons I've seen those I know express for not enjoying PvP are valid concerns, in my opinion.
Don't think we haven't considered it, we have, lots. The problem is the minority of people who'll interrupt whatever we're doing for a cheap kill...
So what you may say? Just get up and carry on? Well yes, we can do that of course, we couldn't care less about RP reputation. However, having someone come along and clobber you when you're in the middle of an RP scene totally destroys any immersion built up and can very easily ruin the entire night for us.
If you're trying to have a confrontation with an arch-enemy or something, and every time one of you finished a sentence, some PITA comes along and kills your butt, how long will it be before you get totally pee'd off and just give up?
Several people have in the past offered to run something like a guard for us, which is incredibly nice, but the thing is, RP scenes can take hours to unfold and those kind enough to stand guard would be bored out of their skulls for the most part and leave before very long.
I'm NOT saying this is a general attitude with all PvPers, but it's a noticeble one, even from several forum members. I'll name no names but there have been a few people that have quite plainly stated that if they see people standing around, they'll attack. This is the kind of PvP attitude that *seems* prelavent to us and it's this kind of attitude that I see in any game involving any kind of PvP aspect. Look at FPS games like Counterstrike, they're massively PvP and the attitude of 99% of players there seriously stinks, and it won't be long before similar happens here, I already see the first signs with the trash talk... 
@FloatingFatMan
Do not go gentle into that good night.
Rage, rage against the dying of the light.
Rock_Eagle, I can't argue with you about people who think that the use of tactics etc is unfair and go so far as to petition people for simply playing the game.
Let me put it this way, as regards the damage I feel is being done to the community:
There are two kinds of people currently becoming extremely vocal. The kind who love PvP and don't care how others feel about it, or about being killed repeatedly, the kind whose response to many (if not all) PvP complaints is "tough, I see you in a PvP zone, you're dead", regardless of whether or not the concerns are legitimate.
The other is the "I'm being forced to PvP, I didn;t buy a PvP game! Why can't you all just leave me alone?" type, who, while their personal opinion of PvP is valid, don't seem to be able or willing to construct a decent argument to back up any of their concerns.
Both of these people are a minority in terms of the game's playerbase. However, they are a vocal element, each of them projecting a negative image, and those of us with legitimate concerns and complaints, with the experience and evidence to back up our claims (on both sides), have our posts tarred with the same brush.
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I'm being forced to PvP, I didn;t buy a PvP game
[/ QUOTE ] just a quick question here tho as i been reading this for about a good 45 mins now to understand the arguements... SINCE WHEN DOES CoH OR CoV 'FORCE' U INTO PVP?!?! yes contacts may send u there but all u have to do is speak with the contact there and leave... ther is no reson for you to stay there.... The pvp zones are optional and in all honesty thats the end of the matter. I love PvP as much as the nxt and i am also a great lover of RP, But guys in all honesty here it's getting out of hand. end of the day if u don't wanna pvp don't enter the zones, nuff said. And for Rock_Eagles comment about his friend getting petitioned about insps... that was me... personally i find it rather amusing that sumone thinks GM's are gonna waste time on a petition like that! Neway i need sleep now after another all-nite session in the pvp zones lol!
DJ Drachaos
Evolution Radio
I do agree with that yes there are some idots about in the pvp zone that just go there with the pure thought of just getting as many kills as possible and dont care how they go about doing it. But there a lot of people in the zone that are not like this at all that respect other playersand dont grief at all. I personly wont go after the same toon time and time agian unless Im deffending my base then it comes down to the fact that Im protecting me and mine and even then I dont normaly just target one person I normaly go for the one that I can land a assasin strike on. I also will happily let people in on stuff I have picked up as I think its fair to share the knowledge.
I used to hate PvP but since these zones have come about I am enjoying them very much so even with my AR/Devices blaster. Yes the PvP game can be very unblanced but thats genrally only in one on one matchs when your in a team things are very differnt even Sharp Shot can holds his own and adds to the team. I have also started PvP V.G. in CoV wich I will be using to promote good sports manship if any of the V.G. are found to be griefing other players in the PvP zone they will be kicked simple as I dont want that type of person in my V.G. or to team with them as I hate and despise all types of bullys.
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All nice and dandy saying people should stop whining and the like, and in a way, I agree, however, I would like to point out the following. I have yet to meet a roleplayer who actively goes out to harass other players, makes them feel inferior and cusses them to kingdom come.
PvP -does- have a fair number of rotten apples who -do- actively go out to make people's lives a living hell in game.
Nuff said, really.
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Yeah well it is a bit hard for a RPer to grief you in this game /E slap just dont cut it.
But saying that I have met some right horrible role players just like I have met some horrible PvP players. Some have been in this game some have been in other places. Its just the way of world is every where you go your gonna bump in to a idot be they a Role Player or a PvPer.